What is Digg?72 Comments
- sishgupta, on 10/11/2007, -2/+48I am not specifically anti-MS, but if Ubuntu ever made a deal with MS...I'd likely have to move on to another distro.
IMHO by making a deal with MS a company is thereby saying that MS's unethical business practices are acceptable.
It is things like this that make me glad that I stick with Ubuntu. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -4/+48FTA:
"We have *declined* to discuss any agreement with Microsoft under the threat of unspecified patent infringements." - Mejogid, on 10/11/2007, -3/+45@omgomgomg
**sigh** I really don't enjoy doing this but...
"I don't think Ubuntu is a good economic idea."
I'm sure you know better than the hundreds of FOSS supporting companies out there.
"There is no such thing as a free lunch in my opinion."
Many people have incorrect opinions, they just don't tend to bandy them around the internet (wait, scrap that last bit).
"Somewhere along the line something will break down. Like what if I don't like how Ubuntu becomes?"
Same applies as with any product. Stop using it.
"Do I just learn to code and change it myself?"
You can if you want, noone's making you. How is an extra option a restriction?
"I can't just threaten to not buy their product, where is the motivation to innovate?"
Good point - I've often seen software companies make wide-sweeping policy changes when a user threatens not to use their porduct.
"How do I even get it?"
Download it or get a free CD from shipit.
"Who pays for me to get it?"
Canonical.
"What if my companies computers all have it but it doesn't like my hardware, but I just invested in a ton of that hardware? Who will I go to to fix it?"
Same as with any other OS, but there's a good chance someone will have the same hardware and figure out a fix. Or you can put up a bounty for a fix, which may help a dev buy the appropriate hardware to test it.
"As you can see there are many questions that don't make sense to me."
Maybe you should think a bit more.
"I think you guys just all hate Microsoft and this feels cool."
Nope, we just use the OS that best suites our needs. I don't make a habit of hating cooperate entities, just passing over products that represent bad value for money.
"I hope it doesn't not become popular"
So... you hope it does become popular?
"and you can just stay happy at this level."
We sure can, or if the OSS movement grows we can be happy then, too! - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -6/+40Finally, Someone with Balls and Sense in the sea of Pussies.
- omgomgomg, on 10/11/2007, -9/+42Shuttleworth.. you make a deal and I press enter.. I dare you...
sudo rm -rf / - MWeather, on 10/11/2007, -6/+35"where is the motivation to innovate?"
More users = more people paying for support.
"What if my companies computers all have it but it doesn't like my hardware, but I just invested in a ton of that hardware?"
Fire whoever is responsible for not testing the hardware with the intended OS before buying it.
"Who will I go to to fix it?"
Cannonical, of course. - Mejogid, on 10/11/2007, -3/+29I do get the feeling that you're generally interested rather than trolling, so I'll answer again:
"Why are you getting so angry?"
Your first comment came across as pretty rude, and nobody's exactly gone nuts.
"I am an average user that needs answers, I still see this as a bad idea. It makes sense you have covered all the questions I asked. You have hordes of people working on this."
I'd hardly call a handfull of digg users a 'horde' but I'll take that as a compliment (?)
"But I still don't see how something free is possible. Is it because writting code is requires no machinery and only people willing to do it. And since there is a lot of people who love to program they just do it for fun and now all work together? If that is the case then that is cool, it's kinda like having a ton of awesome programmers working for you."
A number of reasons. Some (myself included, to a limited extent) code for fun, hardware companies (IBM and Sun, for example) support it so that they can take advantage of the benefits, some make money by selling support contracts (eg. Redhat, Canonical, Novell) and use the money the get to fund further development etc etc. Since it's all open, they're effort is combined rather than segregated.
"Like who is this Cannonical company?"
The company that funds and develops Ubuntu.
"I see that as a weak link no of your have expanded upon. How are Cannonical's shareholders happy?"
They don't have any.
"Do they just sell support? Support for a free product?"
Yes, actually, since many companies, organisations and individuals like the peace of mind that comes from a guaranteed fix to your problems. In fact, most of you're above worries would be taken care of if you took out a support contract.
"If so where is the central nerve of linux? kernal.org?"
Its distributed among the developers' websites, IRC channels, supporting companies, individuals harddrives etc.
"The whole concept just sounds fishy"
As I said before, I'm sure your ability to tell when something you clearly know next to nothing about is fishy outranks the knowledge of hundreds of companies and investors who have spent millions of hours contributing to and supporting open source.
" to me and you guys can call me stupid all you want but you gotta explain yourselves."
That's the sort of comment that comes across as rude. We don't have to explain ourselves - and frankly couldn't care what software you use. There's no burden of proof on us, if anything you should investigate yourself if your interested/intrigued.
That's all for now, I'm off to defy economics, upset my share holders and engage in some highly 'fishy' activities. - geminitojanus, on 10/11/2007, -5/+30Why should Canonical fear Microsoft? Canonical is a European company, and Microsoft's patents mean squat over there. Furthermore, they know for a fact what anyone who's been around Microsoft for more than a few years; you get suckered in with all kinds of promises, and then they systematically prune away those promises until you end up with nothing.
I commend Shuttleworth for coming out and saying it clearly, even though he really didn't need to. I'd be interested to hear what he's going to do about Linspire, but I'm sure that's a discussion for another day. - maddox, on 10/11/2007, -2/+20So why click on this story then? Why read through the comments?
There are plenty of stories on digg every day that don't interest me, you know what I do, I ignore them!
Buried for being a dick. - omgomgomg, on 10/11/2007, -11/+24@Rukiribe - you don't know anything about opensource, and it shows, now STFU. linux supports more hardware and CPU architectures than MS. where as vista will only run on the newest hardware. we have the whole support of the community on IRC/forums at the drop of a hat... you need to wait on a effing phone. linux isn't a good economic idea.. you're right!! but 99% of the people involved aren't interested in the economics.
- Mejogid, on 10/11/2007, -3/+14Sorry, that was to Rukiribe - my edit got cut off.
- OutOfMyBase16, on 10/11/2007, -2/+11@Rukaribe "..people willing to do it"
there's plenty.
and just to give you a better idea how big opensource is.. ~65% or more of all webpages are served by a server that's a free gift to all (apache). the programming language(php) used to make digg is free. the database(mysql) that stores all diggs dumb comments.. : | is free to use. the operating system (linux, big surprise?) digg runs on is.. free for all.
and another.. Google! .. the search engine runs entirely(as far as i know) on FREE SOFTWARE. - trogdoor, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9@estvir
Digg != Open Source Community
There is some overlap, but not enough to counter the general insensitivity of Digg users. - bobothn, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9@Rukaribe
in short Canonical is ran by Mark_Shuttleworth who founded Thawte in 1995, which specialised in digital certificates and Internet security and then sold it to VeriSign in December 1999, earning R 3.5 billion (about $575 million US dollars at the time). he was also the first African national in space when he payed 22 million of his money to fly in to space. he currently is the guy poring his money in to the project which is why you can go to http://shipit.ubuntu.com and order your self a free cd if you don't wan to buy one. he is hopping to sell support for ubuntu in order to make all the money he has put in to it back. he was helping develop debian before he got his money though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shuttleworth
http://www.canonical.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd.
and as far as "I can't just threaten to not buy their product, where is the motivation to innovate?"
canonical sells support for ubuntu if every one stops using it they will not make money. so their is an incentive to keep making their product better.
also you might also like to read about the
Free Software Foundation http://www.fsf.org/
free software movement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_movement
and Linux in general http://www.linux.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux
also you might want to look into other distribution of linux besides ubuntu.
debian http://www.debian.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian
Fedora http://fedoraproject.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedora_Core
OpenSuse http://en.opensuse.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSUSE
those are some of the larger distros You cant find out about many more distros at http://distrowatch.com/ - estvir, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11It's amusing to see a genuine question from Rukaribe ("I wanna try this Ubuntu thing. Can someone give me a link to all the information on how to install it into a dual boot configuration?") being buried so much when people on here say how great the FOSS community is.
A good way to show it would be to Digg him up, answer him and if you do meet someone who seems a little apprehensive/unfriendly, well, you better get used to it, a lot of people will be like that, not out of some want to be mean but because it's something new, etc.
Oh, and another thing, Rukaribe Dugg up those who answered him as if he was a troll, even people like omgomgomg telling him to "STFU' (+1 to the community, right there). He seems to more genuine/friendly than some of the others on here.
Rukaribe - http://ubuntuforums.org/ - flair1, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10Red Hat and Ubuntu are the only major distros that fight for free software!
- msgyrd, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10I can't tell if you're a sarcastic troll (apologies if you're not) or just a newbie to free software, so here are some answers.
"There is no such thing as a free lunch in my opinion."
Yes there is. Linux and Open Source Software is truely free. Free and in freedom, free as in beer. Totally free, except that you can't relicense it as non free, or claim someone else's work.
"Somewhere along the line something will break down. Like what if I don't like how Ubuntu becomes? Do I just learn to code and change it myself?"
Thats the idea. It's open source and free. If you dislike something, pick up a programming book and change what you dislike. The source code for everything is pretty easy to get.
"I can't just threaten to not buy their product, where is the motivation to innovate?"
Well, since you're not buying the product, usually just the medium it arrives on, they don't care about your money much. The motivation to innovate is ideals of freedom and to compete with something that usually costs money.
"How do I even get it? Who pays for me to get it?"
http://www.ubuntu.com/ and click download now. Burn with your favorite .iso recorder and boot from the CD. Donations, companies and advertisements pay for it. Many universities offer mirrors for downloads (university foots the bill for the bandwidth). Companies can create open source and still sell it, they just release the source code also.
"What if my companies computers all have it but it doesn't like my hardware, but I just invested in a ton of that hardware? Who will I go to to fix it?"
Well, since you didn't buy anything, there is no "tech support hotline" available. Support is handled by the community of users, http://www.ubuntu.com/support/communitysupport Researching hardware support is something you should do before you install anything. - opencoder, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8"I don't think Ubuntu is a good economic idea. There is no such thing as a free lunch in my opinion. Somewhere along the line something will break down. Like what if I don't like how Ubuntu becomes? Do I just learn to code and change it myself? I can't just threaten to not buy their product, where is the motivation to innovate? How do I even get it? Who pays for me to get it? What if my companies computers all have it but it doesn't like my hardware, but I just invested in a ton of that hardware? Who will I go to to fix it?"
The motivation to innovate comes from the need to make better and better programs. Most people don't realize how well the Linux community innovates computers. We don't see the progress because we are constantly updating and getting new feature. Whereas with Windows and Mac, it's easy to notice innovation. You have to wait till the next release to get anything new. If you look at what advances have been made from XP to Vista, and then look at the same time frame with Linux. You see a great deal of innovation in open source technology and projects.
Our motivation stems from something better than money. We don't need money. We need better software. And programmers in our community play for a kind of respect from their peers. And for the thrill of working on a project. For the love of the project.
And you can threaten to not buy their product. It's just that "buying" in this sense is refusal to use. Projects that don't get users die out. That's the motivation to innovate. Because no programmer wants the application they have been maintaining for years to just die out. For more information: Look http://sob.apotheon.org/?p=269
"As you can see there are many questions that don't make sense to me. I think you guys just all hate Microsoft and this feels cool. I hope it doesn't not become popular and you can just stay happy at this level."
Okay, first I don't understand the last sentence here. Are you saying that you don't want it to become popular? But I wont get hung up on grammar. It's not that we hate Microsoft. At least I don't. I understand their position. It practically feasible for their customers to keep returning. They do things their way and we do things ours. We can be happy that way. It's when Microsoft starts making threats at our community that we need to take action. They spread fear, uncertainty and doubt. And they won't provide evidence. This whole thing is because they recognize that people are switching. Apple is gaining users. And thanks to distributions like Ubuntu that aim to make computing easier, Linux is gaining users.
Mark Shuttleworth said it best: "And I’m pretty certain that, within a few years, Microsoft themselves will be strong advocates against software patents. Why? Because Microsoft is irrevocably committed to shipping new software every year, and software patents represent landmines in their roadmap which they are going to step on, like it or not, with increasing regularity. They can’t sit on the sidelines of the software game - they actually have to ship new products. And every time they do that, they risk stepping on a patent landmine."
I just don't like the fact that Microsoft thinks it can play games. They sign deals to "protect" certain Linux distributions. But I am more disappointed in Novell, Linspire, and Xandros for not standing up and defending themselves. The mere fact that they agreed to these deals paints a not so flattering picture of Linux and gives the impression that the open source community is doing something wrong. And I don't believe that. We do what every other software provider does. It's just that we can't hide behind binaries. Everything we do is in the open. We give the users choice. - Rukaribe, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8That makes perfect sense opencoder, thank you.
Let me go find a newbie linux forum. :) - crazybrit, on 10/11/2007, -6/+12That's MS for you.
- trogdoor, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Actually, there is a subtle but important distinction, they are basically saying
"Partner with us and we *won't* sue you"
That clearly implies that they are threatening to sue you if you don't partner with them, but by not coming out and actually saying that they can then defend themselves by saying that they aren't being predatory and threatening to sue, they are just being nice people and offering the open source community interoperability...
Yes, it is bull ***** either way, but it is important to understand their "argument" so that you don't have stories like this http://digg.com/software/Sue_me_first_Microsoft That may the OSS community look juvenile. - MeneerR, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6"And since there is a lot of people who love to program they just do it for fun and now all work together? If that is the case then that is cool, it's kinda like having a ton of awesome programmers working for you."
Well, yes. The difference between people programming for free and people collecting your garbage for free, is that programming can be fun.
There are still parts that are no fun. The 1% of ***** stuff that needs to be done. This is done by sponsors.
There are a lot of people indirectly motivated to pay programmers to write opensource. Examples:
Google runs linux on all of its servers and makes money that way.. If they need some changes, they pay their programmers to change it. Then they give the changes back upstream, so they don't have to maintain them. (so sharing code actually saves them money!).
Intel wants to sell lots of videocards. So they don't just write a driver. They opensource it and send it back upstream. Now any linux-machiene will work perfectly with their hardware out-of-the-box. When the hobbyists write a 3d window manager and they need to change the driver, they can. Intel doesn't have to maintain their own drivers to be compatible to whatever software we want to run with it. They save money this way, and their customers are satisfied.
Google wants people to use their searchengine. But MS Live Search is the default search provider on Internet Explorer. So they finance the firefox developers, because firefox has google as the default search engine.
Id Software wants to sell more games, so they want people to develop their own games with their engines. To motivate them, they say, that three years after they sell the game, they will opensource the game engine. Now every MOD (game modification) can be given away as a free game. Because of this more MODS are created by the community, with the promise they get the engine eventually. They sell more games, MOD authors eventually get the engine, and Linux has free 3d engines.
The US military wants a secure operating system that they can check for backdoors. So they use Linux. Lots of american servers run on linux and when the US military finds a security hole, they will fix it and give the fix back upstream.
This list goes on and on. A lot of people are making money. 1% (the hard and boring stuff) is payed for. The cool stuff (the rest) is done by the community, because they think that's fun. It fits better to the common man, because the actual programs are written by the common man. He is not forced to lock competitors or whatever out of the game. The user comes first. Because the user is also the creator. - Dracos, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7Mark Shuttleworth has huge balls. Bigger than those of all the employees at all the frightened pansy companies that have signed deals with the devil.
And he's a cool guy... I've exchanged a couple emails with him. He is definitely worthy of any F/OSS supporter's respect. - JefffN, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7They should have responded with, "We don't negotiate with terrorists,"
- musther, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Most conversations on digg manage to degrade into arguments, but for a real example of how friendly and helpful the open source community are, check out a forum of an open-source project, hey, why not ubuntu!
http://www.ubuntuforums.org
And, an alternative way to get started with trying out ubuntu is Wubi:
http://www.cutlersoftware.com/ubuntusetup/wubi/en-US/index.html
What Wubi does is allow you to install and use ubuntu as a dual boot with your windows system (this means when you turn on your computer, you can either select to load windows or ubuntu). The advantages of Wubi over other systems are that, firstly, it doesn't repartition your hard drive, it works from within windows (but runs as a completely separate system), and secondly, it is easy to remove if it's not for you.
If you need any help with anything to do with ubuntu, take a moment to sign up at:
http://www.ubuntuforums.org
Enjoy your entry into the open-source world! You might have some struggles, but you won't regret it! - 13thMonkey, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Er, ever heard of Debian?
- Qchan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8Why should ANYONE fear Microsoft? They've done this before. Besides, if Microsoft wants to go after Linux, they know they have to contend with bigger companies such as IBM, RedHat and others. Those guys have bigger patent profiles than Microsoft. It's dangerous for Microsoft to start a patent war. It would lose and Microsoft will end up spending more money than it is now.
This shouldn't even be discussed because its only in retaliation to hollow threats from Microsoft. Anyone who takes this threat seriously should really reevaluate Microsoft's intentions. - MrPig, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I never really gave Ubuntu credit, always thinking it was an overrated, bloated distro, until now. Good job; you've earned my respect - which means you earned the respect of others.
US Patent and Copyright laws *MUST* be re-written, or at least revised. - MeneerR, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3They are not actually PAYING. They are receiving money to 'buy' the right to violate the MS patents. They are getting money to say linux violates patents. If it ever gets to a lawsuit, microsoft can say, why did all these companies 'buy' the right to violate our patents, if our patents are not violated. And the the other attorney will likely say 'because you payed them to buy that right'.
Its a weird world, where you receive money to claim that you have bought something. - rolf, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Not only that point but think of the blowback from the linux community if Shuttleworth made such a deal.
Ubuntu is still in a phase where it depends on the hard work of a few true believers to advance. Making such a move would kill their enthusiasm for Ubuntu because then they can say "See, Shuttleworth is a sell-out, just like the rest." And then somewill will fork Ubuntu permanently where the movers and shakers move to. I don't think he has a choice right now. - raseel, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3From what I have read about Shuttleworth, I don't think he'll just cut a deal with Microsoft. He'll probably do it, if MS decide to open their code as well :-D
But on a serious note, he's a wise man. And Canonical stands for everything that is good and right about Desktop Linux. He wouldn't sell-out the brand name for a few more million dollars. - localzuk, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6Wow, this page halved in size when I blocked Rukiribe...
- rocket777, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3I may be totally wrong, but I always believed that patents only provided protection from others selling something in violation of the patent. I thought that anyone who wanted to build something for private use that was patented was free to do so.
Since ubuntu does not sell their software, then how can they be in violation of any patent claims?
For reproduction issues, I thought one used copyright instead. - TritonX, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Then, how do you explain all the recent deals with some linux distros?
- Qchan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2It still wouldn't hold in court. Microsoft violates patents on its own. If Microsoft ever claimed Linux violated a patent and was able to personally identify it, best believe another compnay would appear and say, "No. That's our patent." Also if Linux WAS violating patents, it can easily pull the offending code out. Microsoft is spreading FUD, and if you think that strategy is going to work, then you're a bigger fool than I thought.
- Dracos, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4@ Rukaribe
Legal and ethical are not the same thing.
From your first comment, I would guess that your are the uninformed CTO or COO of an all Microsoft shop. your point of view is the myopic one that Microsoft wants you to have and never abandon.
Have you dropped a huge wad of your company's cash on Vista upgrades yet? What if your hardware doesn't work with it? I'm sure MS will tell you you're SOL if it doesn't. - xspinkickx, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3if they make a deal I am going back to debian, I know a deal even if its not about patents, is gonna hurt us. I am sure novell and linspire are going to be pulling MS daggers out of their back. I use MS products, but they cant be trusted.
- TritonX, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I agree with you that MS claims are probably *****, but then why so many distros signing deals with the devil. Do they know something we don't?
- trogdoor, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4@Rukaribe
For information on how to set up a dual boot ( and basically the first place to look for just about any question ) try http://help.ubuntu.com :
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WindowsDualBoot - richhand, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1My understanding is that Google runs their own modified version of Linux or the GOS. What I want to know is why Google and Ubuntu aren't talking. There is the perfect marriage of philosophy and money. Forget about the $100 laptop... how about the $0 laptop. MIT + Ubuntu + Google = world-wide computing!
- 2kude, on 10/11/2007, -3/+4It's a shame that school is out already, when are the childish trolls like Rukaribe going back?
- Rukaribe, on 10/11/2007, -14/+15I wanna try this Ubuntu thing. Can someone give me a link to all the information on how to install it into a dual boot configuration?
- flair1, on 10/11/2007, -0/+1Free as in freedom, not free as in beer.
- Rukaribe, on 10/11/2007, -8/+9Thank you for the answers.
- thinman1189, on 10/11/2007, -1/+2Earth to Mighty Mouse, We Need You!
Seriously though, if Ubuntu falls then Linux won't have a chance at making a difference for another decade or two. - groovezilla, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@rukaribe - boy are you lazy.
You got questions, start exercising your lazy brain. Buried as being a lazy troll. - airstrike, on 10/11/2007, -2/+3@Madlepler
your arguments have so many flaws i am paralyzed by choice.
google runs on linux, period. linux is not the cause for google's popularity like you assumed someone to have claimed.
intel hasn't sold video cards, but they still sell onboard video.
you might not use MS live search, but google is definetely not the -default- option for IE.
those are just to name a few.. - Giga, on 10/11/2007, -2/+2"Finally, Someone with Balls and Sense in the sea of Pussies."
Heh, reminds me of the "Dicks, Pussies and *****" speech from Team America... - muppetFuckr, on 10/11/2007, -8/+8@Rukaribe
Wow, I assume you must be a troll. If you're on Digg you should be aware of the basic ideas behind Linux. And you've managed to piss everyone off in some capacity(Defending Microsoft's ethics, that's just too obvious :-). Anywho, welcome to my block list HAND - IceZZ, on 10/11/2007, -1/+1Then you do mean public domain, if you mean truly free, no strings attached. The GPL is about as free as a bird in a cage; the bird can be looked at and displayed, you can even feed the bird and transport it wherever you like, but you can never let it go. Public domain says you can let the bird go if you want.
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