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91 Comments
- inactive, on 05/27/2009, -3/+24cool but i still love the geekyness of "apt-get install ..."
- MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -3/+21"That is why Windows is so popular in schools, because teachers don't have to worry about too much troubleshooting "
Thanks for the laugh. - willfe, on 05/27/2009, -0/+17No bury, no flame. Just some constructive advice.
Get some more practice in. No, seriously. Pick out a box (even a virtual one) you can afford to mess with, and start screwing around. Learn how things work (not just picking a task and clicking around in a GUI until it works). Learn *why* something breaks when it breaks. That learning process will help lead you towards a better understanding of how (and why) things work in the first place, regardless of which OS you're using. Keep playing with it until you're comfortable with a few things, then start migrating services over. It takes time to learn any platform. Give Linux the same time and patience you gave Windows when you were first learning it. You'll get it.
To be bluntly honest, what you've described *is* really easy to set up, and it does seem like you just dove into an Ubuntu install expecting it to read your mind and work just like your Windows box does. It doesn't. It does "just work," but doesn't do things the "Windows" way.
Having said all that, if you're uncomfortable with the terminal, stay out of the terminal. Setting up a share is trivially simple even with the GUI tools. As far as the weird GRUB errors, "fixmbr" is pointless/useless anyway, but a better solution than "just giving up" would be to ask in the Ubuntu forums. Post specifics; don't just post saying "GRUB sucks and won't boot, throwing errors." Post the actual error. Try to describe what you did prior to that error (if you can't remember, that's okay -- just say so).
The "attitude" you (and many other people) claim to encounter isn't the result of some deep, burning desire to rage on anyone who isn't blessed with Infinite Linux Knowledge(tm). It's rooted in the frustration experienced users feel when an inexperienced person comes to them, expecting it all to work like magic (no matter what "it" is) and already frustrated that it doesn't instantly behave like a Windows machine. Picture your mechanic being a bit grouchy with you when you complain to him that the engine sputters but all you did was "a little tinkering." - abhiroop, on 05/27/2009, -2/+15I never understood why ubuntu has about 7 ways of installing something....
1. Add/Remove
2. Synaptic
3. apt-get
4. Aptitude
5. Gdebi
6. Update manager
7. Source install
I can understand that sourse install, and the CLI tools (aptitude and apt-get) are needed but why have synaptice, add/remove, gdebi AND update manager! In fact even having both apt-get and aptitude is confusing.
I personally, like add/remove best when I'm not really sure about what I need, so I can just search for "music" or "video" and I get a few options. Doing the same in synaptic gives me hundreds of options, most which are obscure programs. However, I still overall prefer synaptic as it has tools that do not show up in add/remove and so, add/remove is almost handicapped.
Putting them all together is a good idea, but I like the extensively detail in synaptic and hopefully this can be carried forward somehow. - dougbarrett, on 05/27/2009, -6/+17Isn't the common rule of thumb for writing newspaper articles is to write it so a 3rd or 4th grader could read it and understand it? If Ubuntu wants to make an Linux distro for humans, then 3rd and 4th graders should be their quality testers. That is why Windows is so popular in schools, because teachers don't have to worry about too much troubleshooting and explaining what words and phrases mean.
- kokoshka, on 05/27/2009, -2/+12Wow great. How about fixing the huge performance regressions on intel video chips?
- MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -4/+12Well yeah, because generally Microsoft claims everything they copy from others is new and unique.
- willfe, on 05/27/2009, -5/+13Jeepinator: So Windows is only stable/reliable if not permitted to drift from a preconfigured state? Hmmm... so much for "using" the computer. Why not just go back to dumb terminals?
...or stick Linux on 'em and quit worrying about one user screwing up another's experience... [ducks] - MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -3/+11"willfe, because they want to train students on software that they will use in an office environment one day"
Training kids how to use software years before they ever hit the job market is utterly retarded. If you trained them on Office 2003, would they know how to use word 2007? No.
Kids need to be taught how to use word processors and spreadsheets, Not Word 2003 and Excel 2003. - lemur, on 05/27/2009, -2/+10Mind you, I haven't used Ubuntu in years, but last time I checked they had the simplest setup. The hardware thingy would detect my wireless card, and ask "do you want to download proprietary drivers?" Yes, done. Easier than inserting CD or anything like that.
- RoboDonut, on 05/27/2009, -2/+9@Niallgriff:
Because all children should aspire to be office drones. - RumpleForeskin3, on 05/27/2009, -1/+7NURV built Synapse by killing Teddy Cho. We must stop them.
- sigmaman2, on 05/27/2009, -2/+8Uh, no, teachers don't have to worry about troubleshooting. The School District's IT department does that.
Also, a 3rd grader's PC savvy differs greatly from that of a High School senior.
People don't use Windows because of it's ease of use, or because it's a superior product...lord no. People use Windows because *other* people use Windows. If Christian Bale announced that he used BeOS, that would be enough to make a lot of people switch. - ATL, on 06/20/2009, -3/+8Its an improvement, isn't that good enough?
- MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -4/+9So you manage your Windows servers entirely via the GUI? My god...
- sigmaman2, on 05/27/2009, -1/+6You forgot...
Insert Hardware Driver CD, Next, Next, Finish.
Insert Anti-Virus CD, Next, Next, Finish.
Insert Malware CD, Next, Next, Finish.
Insert System Utilities CD, Next, Next, Finish.
. . .
That, and several hundred dollars later, you have a stable Windows system.
Besides, even with Ubuntu the way it is today, you click a checkbox, and click Install. No "Insert CD" step, no "Next, Next" steps. But *everybody else* thinks that the Windows way is easier, for some reason. - jftitan, on 05/27/2009, -2/+7No, that is the rule in the eviloverlord handbook.
Make your plan infallible by having a 3rd grader run through it first. Because they always find the flaws in your best laid evil plans. - MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -3/+8Where did they claim it was unique?
- Manitoadlet, on 05/27/2009, -1/+5I'm probably going to look like a retard here but how is that any different than what's already there? I swear that "mockup" looks exactly like something I've already used on Ubuntu (if I were home I'd look into it). Also, using Synaptic isn't rocket science.
- jeremymccurdy, on 05/27/2009, -1/+5Wasn't an article about this on the front page yesterday? And wasn't it mentioned in that article that the AppCenter has been in the works since 2005?
- wallclimber, on 05/27/2009, -1/+5"...That is why Windows is so popular in schools, because teachers don't have to worry about too much troubleshooting and explaining what words and phrases mean."
Really? Tell that to Julie Amero. I bet she'd have a different viewpoint on the matter. - buddamus, on 05/27/2009, -2/+6Looks good, I hope they do implement it.
- Zippo, on 05/27/2009, -1/+5I think all OS' should have this... it would certainly make getting apps and updates easier...
If nothing else, I'd be happy with OS X's Software Update supporting 3rd party software... or every app just running the Sparkle framework.
And imagine... being to install Windows and download Firefox... without even having to open IE once.
Come to think of it, though... I can see MS horribly mishandling an "App Store", leading to some horrendous onslaught of malware. - Rethcir, on 05/27/2009, -2/+6Potential game changer. I mean, why should it be more complex to install software on a computer than on a blackberry or iphone?
Basically all that's needed is a super Add/remove programs thing that has an update manager and paypal integration in case someone wants to sell apps. - MWeather, on 05/27/2009, -3/+7Linux console? I manage Windows servers via the command line as well. All competent Windows administrators use the command line. Clicking through GUIs is for noob MCSEs.
And yes, I can remember the commands way more easily than I can remember where in the heirarchy of menus of several different GUI management apps a particular configuration option is.
If you can't handle typing in commands, it's time for a new career. The SoHo network you mange will get along fine without you. - warp99, on 05/27/2009, -1/+5The learning curve can sometimes be steep, but once you learn it you have skills that can transfer over to other platforms be it Solaris, OS X, BSD, or AIX.
With Linux you have skills that will last you a lifetime while with Windows you always have to relearn with each version of a new GUI interface.
And the most important reason is that on average Linux admins usually make more money than their Windows counterparts. - Nephersir7, on 05/27/2009, -1/+4I might get buried for saying this, but Linux Mint 7 (released yesterday) ALREADY has a very user-friendly unified install manager.
It also has almost every planned feature for Ubuntu' s App Center like user reviews and ratings, screenshots, descriptions
Screenshots i just took: http://imgur.com/YLQGN.png http://imgur.com/0khA2.png http://imgur.com/tP0jh.png http://imgur.com/rKBKg.png http://imgur.com/5UXLX.png - nutmac, on 05/27/2009, -2/+5"Add/Remove Applications", "Software Sources", and "Update Manager" should be combined into one. "apt-get" and "aptitude" need to be combined as well. And please make it easier to import keys. I shouldn't have to hunt for them.
I use "Synaptic Package Manager" to primarily discover packages in the universe. I think functionalities of "gdebi" and "source install" are specialized and can be left independent. - ChiaGod, on 05/27/2009, -2/+5Here you go, following the "Safe" and "Optimal" steps made a night and day difference in my friends intel graphics computer:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1130582 - kokoshka, on 05/28/2009, -0/+2Dell Mini 9, Intel 945GME; "Safe" configuration slows things down to a crawl, Netbook Remix is totally unusable. "Optimal" is a huge improvement, but breaks restricted drivers (no wireless).
I've ended up crawling back to 8.04 five times since 8.10 was released, damn will I miss that 20 second boot and functioning wireless. - pinchduck, on 05/27/2009, -2/+4Mine got better with the last update. I've owned the computer for 10 months and can finally play FlightGear with it. Fullscreen video is much better, too.
- EagleRock, on 05/28/2009, -0/+2I'm a sysadmin as well, and I deal with the same crap that you do (on Windows, Linux, and HP/UX...). And I do realize that some people want to use Linux to USE it, not tinker with it. I happen to be one that likes to perform the latter, but that doesn't mean I don't have the former group in mind, either. My contention is simply that by adding layers and layers of "fluff" around the underlying structure of the package management system is only going to complicate things more for them and for them to get help.
When you consider that in Windows Land, a user has to hunt and peck over the Internet for an application, download the installer, run it, probably answer questions they don't know the answers to, then hope it works, that's quite difficult compared to going to Synaptic, typing in a search string, then simply checking-off what they want.
And in regards to a person caring how their system works, sure, most users don't. On the other hand, I'd contend that a newbie Linux user wants quick help if necessary. Since the Ubuntu project likes to discard the notion of contributing to existing Debian applications (like Synaptic), they decide to just keep piling on more package-management apps to just add to the confusion. Now, when Ubuntu users are saying they have issues with installing a package, you'll have to ask whether they're using apt/aptitude, synaptic, add/remove, or appcenter?
Not only that, but the interchangeability of these apps aren't always going to be guaranteed either. For example, if you are a regular apt-get user, and you decide to switch to aptitude for a while, that could ultimately cause problems with dependencies and other issues, as the programs *should* work, but aren't guaranteed to. What happens if "Add/Remove" and "AppCenter" handle things differently? Then, when the newbie goes for help, they will get different answers from different people, and they might just blindly follow whatever instruction in whatever app they were instructed to use.
For an example, let's say they ask one day how to get CPU/Disk stats on their desktop, and an experienced user says to do this:
# apt-get update
# apt-get install superkaramba
Then, another day, they ask how to start working with a remote desktop system, and a guy says:
Ubuntu > Add-Remove, type in VLC, check off "VLC Server" and hit install
Then, another day, he wants to set up a web server. I say:
aptitude update
aptitude install apache2
Then, yet again, he's looking to try out a KDE app, so someone goes
Open up AppCenter, search for "Ksol" and click install
There's four package management systems right there. Not all of them work exactly alike, and there's no guarantee that AppCenter will work exactly a Synaptic would work, just like apt and aptitude aren't guaranteed as well. They could bork some kind of dependency if they close to remove one of those apps, and they did nothing wrong. This kind of sheltering only hurts the user, and hurts the community as a whole, as now you have an angry newbie saying his Ubuntu won't work and it sucks.
Again, at the risk of repeating myself, why doesn't Canonical contribute to making something like aptitude or Synaptic better for everyone, rather than just adding on one more layer of confusion? - abhiroop, on 05/28/2009, -0/+2I completely agree that each one has its own use, and potentially all of them can be useful. But like this AppCentre, wouldn't it make more sense to bundle together, updates, gdebi and synaptic into one pot. Of course as it has been mentioned CLI tools are still quite useful, and agreed you still need this. But, I don't think there is any need to have 7 different methods.
- paulsmith288, on 05/28/2009, -0/+2I'd not actually seen that before - its quite funny
- abhiroop, on 05/27/2009, -3/+5aptitude is better...
yes I know it was pointless to say that, and I'm just playing Devil's avocate, but hey its fun! - Jeepinator, on 05/27/2009, -4/+6When the schools have software installed that resets the computer back to default settings on every shutdown the Windows machines are very reliable.
- c00l2sv, on 05/27/2009, -0/+2Wake up Neo!
:) - ZippyV, on 05/27/2009, -0/+2@abhiroop:
No, that is not easy. Nobody knows this command by heart.
There are too many steps involved if you want to install an application that is not part of the distro's repository. - HonestAbe, on 06/07/2009, -0/+2TIME-BASED RELEASES ARE WORKING
TIME-BASED RELEASES ARE WORKING
TIME-BASED RELEASES ARE WORKING
SHUN THE NON-BELIEVER - YourNameHere1, on 05/27/2009, -2/+4pacman for the geekier win.
- tnoy, on 05/27/2009, -0/+2Not even BeOS fanatics use BeOS anymore.
- ATL, on 06/20/2009, -0/+1one thing you are not considering, twiztidsinz....
LINUX IS FREE
People and corporations pay a LOT of money for Microsoft's improvements.
Improvements are EXPECTED from Microsoft, improvements to Linux is a gift from a dedicated developer. - HonestAbe, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1ahahahahahah perfect
- phrstbrn, on 05/28/2009, -0/+1I am a sys admin, so I know how to do all this stuff, and I do. I happen to enjoy getting my hands dirty and figuring how stuff works at the low level.
However, most people don't care. And by most people, I mean 99+% of people who are out there. If it's any more complicated than click the shiny red *I win* button in front of them, they're going to be completely lost, and rather than sit down and try to learn how to make it work, they'll just give up.
I mean, your average user thinks that when your computer gets really slow because you downloaded weatherbug and a ton of crapware, then ran several executable files containing trojans you downloaded off those P2P sites, which was supposed to be the latest Miley Circus album, that the best course of action is to drive down to Bust Buy and buy a new computer, do you really think that's the kind of person who is going to care about how their system works? - HonestAbe, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1I don't know why anyone hasn't mentioned rubbing sticks together yet. I've been a fan of rubbing sticks together since I learned how to do it several million years ago, and I don't see why anyone would do anything differently. I can't imagine how anyone could come up with a more flexible or powerful method of starting fires.
- inactive, on 05/27/2009, -1/+2Robo, I wasn't saying I supported the idea, I was just saying that is what the education system is set up to do. Right or wrong, that's the way it is.
- inactive, on 09/08/2009, -0/+1As the Wiki page says, this is supposed to remedy the problem. They're trying to combine Synaptic, Add/Remove, GDebi, and Update Manager into one nice-looking, less confusing app.
- abhiroop, on 05/28/2009, -0/+1all you need to do is copy and paste it? It isn't rocket science. Besides adding repositories is not supposed to be something for complete novices. You should not technically need to do it anyway.
- Hortinstein, on 05/28/2009, -1/+2geekyness? way easier than launching a GUI...and you look like a hacker from a movie...because all you need for that is scrolling terminal text
- HonestAbe, on 06/07/2009, -0/+1Uhhhhh why is Canonical doing what's already been done?
http://www.packagekit.org/pk-intro.html
Oh right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here -
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