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- drag, on 05/16/2009, -4/+32 > Buried for mentioning the open source betrayer Novell.
*****. Novell put a hell of a lot of work into the Linux desktop.. including paying for real usability studies and hiring usability experts to work on the desktop. The majority of major improvements to Ubuntu is directly due to the work that Novell put into the Gnome desktop, and continue to do it.
So they ***** up by entering into patent agreement with Microsoft. This is something that companies involved in Linux do all the time, but it's the first time that they tried to make the patent stuff cover open source software. This was a major *****-up and they deserved to get slapped for it.
However punishing them over and over again for one big mistake is NOT going to help you one bit, it's not going to improve Linux or improve acceptance of the Linux desktop, or help any developers, or help any other company out. It's just bashing for the sake of bashing and is worthless and damaging. Forgive, don't forget.
> Bugger that, just sort out regular screens already.
> I still have to edit config files? Really? What is this, 1994?
I have 4 Linux laptops and ZERO Xorg.conf on any of them. My mice, touchpad, and pointer devices work perfectly and actually are supported better in Linux then they are in XP. With my Wacom tablet it is detected and configured on the fly, pressure sentivity and everything.
I am able to detect and nearly* hotplug monitors.. my desktop stretches to fill the monitor and snaps back once it's removed.
Touch screens are still annoying, unusual or monitors that give bad information (things like typical HDTV with PC inputs), to enable special features or use the Nvidia or ATI proprietary drivers you have to use a configuration file still.
* Once you plug in a monitor you have to go to display preferences GUI to conifgure it. Once you remove it you have to go into the display preferences again to disable it. So while it can be done on the fly, it's not technically fully hotplugable. Once the driver transition (from the legacy Xorg DDX + Seperate DRI OpenGL driver model to the modern Single unified Gallium3D DRI2 with multiple APIs (OpenGL, OpenCL, EXA, VD-API, OpenVR, etc)) is over and KMS (kernel mode setting) is mature and solidified then it should be much more possible for Linux to hotplug displays.
That is with OSS drivers. Proprietary drivers tend to lag behind in usability features while OSS lags behind in performance and and API support.
----------------------------
> Someone please explain why.
I am looking forward to the USB monitor thing. Combine that with a touch screen and you can do all sorts of fancy things like:
* Use onscreen customizable keyboards and controls to make high-end remote control for a home theater system
* Use a laptop mounted in the trunk of a car as carputer with the USB display up front. (USB 2.0 can extend up to 16 feet, if you put a powered USB hub then it can be doubled)
* Attach a large display for a Linux handheld device, or other embedded device that does not have VGA support otherwise. Things like Linux routers, SheevaPlug, Linux NAS devices, and possibly even Android phones with enough hacking on them.
* Easy to make unique custom devices using things like Gumstix and Beagle board.
* Mobile removable display for Linux headless servers and other things of that nature were traditional solutions like KVM or slide-out displays are expensive, bulky, and not really that good.
* A front end for a rack mounted digital audio workstation, were having a video card would use more electricity and produce more heat then you'd want, or the VGA output is just hard to reach.
* Adding a 3rd or 4th display to a laptop or desktop. It would be nice to have a seperate desktop or work area for monitoring hardware status, controlling music, and other things of that nature when using a Linux workstation with full screen applications.
Sure, sure the performance is going to blow. But for 1024x768 and such they should still be fast enough to easily surf the web or do DVD-sized media playback. That sort of thing is good for lots of different applications. - theone3, on 05/16/2009, -12/+38Bugger that, just sort out regular screens already.
I still have to edit config files? Really? What is this, 1994? - h0ly, on 05/16/2009, -4/+22Well, I've been using Ubuntu for some years now, and I don't even remember when was the last time I had to manually edit xorg.conf. The default configuration just autodetects most displays.
- MrMeikel, on 05/16/2009, -0/+13Someone please explain why.
I imagine this could reduce size of machines/removal of current graphics ports. But by my calculations just a 1680x1050 screen will need 400MB/s which is just under max of USB3 (650, according to wikipedia), and way over USB2. Compression on a screen sounds like a bad idea :| Unless some lagless, lossless compression is used for this.
I understand that the above bandwidth comment only really applies to games. - maz2331, on 05/16/2009, -2/+14I haven't had to touch a config file for X11 in a long time.
- spikeb, on 05/16/2009, -1/+10sweet
- twiztidsinz, on 05/16/2009, -3/+11That's his point.....
You have to config ***** that should be done automatically. - deroderugridder, on 05/16/2009, -2/+8They did for servers already. The desktop is getting sweet too. Android is very promising .. but please remain under your rock..
- ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -2/+7I had to use it when I wanted to run separate xorg sessions on separae monitors, windows doesn't even do that, so thank god for xorg.
- ilikeeggs8877, on 05/16/2009, -1/+5i think the primary market for USB displays is for small form factor displays such as in the 7-8.9" range. While bandwidth would still be an issue; it becomes much more feasible when you're down to the range of resolution appropriate for displays of this size.
- ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -0/+4I guess that why they call it universal...
Soon everything will be connected with USB! - ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -3/+7well, I think that config files are good.
What would you choose:
[ ] Enable ultra power boost
or
# Ultra power boost might affect your performance if you are using an nVidia graphics card and
# should only be enabled for Crossfire compatible ATI cards.
# The default value is "off"
Ultra_power_Boost = off - Suricou, on 05/16/2009, -1/+4One thing still lacking is easy configuration of multible monitors. That still takes manual editing and tweeking.
- zip000, on 05/16/2009, -0/+3You can get a normal very usable display most of the time without having to edit config files, but if you get something a little non-standard you have to from my experience. I don't really mind doing so though.
- DigitalPioneer, on 05/16/2009, -1/+4Well, now, while editing the config file does give you access to options that never appear anywhere else (it takes thousands of parameters to run a GUI, and not all of those can be selected from the GUI) the system will assume reasonable defaults for most of them, and unless you want to do something clever (something that you can only do because there's a config file to edit; compare to windows where you can't do anything clever) you won't need to mess with the config file.
In fact, Ubuntu has completely ditched xorg.conf, much to my chagrin, and you have to work some voodoo just to make it use the config file anymore.
So my question is, how do you not know this? Are you living in 1994? - thcobbs, on 05/16/2009, -2/+4untill you try to use the monitor for anything beyond web browsing or office applications. Even then it's going to be a pain at times.
- thcobbs, on 05/16/2009, -1/+3Dude... light some incense or something.... *hack, hack cough*
But seriously, there is a strong move towards linux for a lot of the SmartGrid.... just so ya' know. (of course, it will have 256b AES encryption and selinux standards...) - warpzero, on 05/17/2009, -0/+2You obviously haven't tried DisplayLink. They work perfectly fine at 1680x1050 resolution and even support video playback. Their compression has clearly got them over the bandwidth restrictions of USB 2.0, and they're in dozens of products: http://www.displaylink.com/shop.html
I've used a Toshiba Dynadock for months and it works really well. USB 3.0 should be even better. - theone3, on 05/17/2009, -0/+2I have used multiple versions of Ubuntu (8.10 included). I've tried it on multiple laptops, and it never seems to work properly when I plug in my desktop setup (big screen, keyboard, mouse) and use a dual-screen setup. I always need to go in there and manually config it. I couldn't even get it working in 8.10
@ArvinJA - I don't care. Nobody cares. It should be sorted out for us. As far as I and most users are concerned, Computers are tools. If I have to pay a little extra for a 'Stanley' that works, I'll do it - as long as I don't have to assemble the tool myself. Oh - and there are tools to allow multi-user single-pc environments on windows too. - Elderon, on 05/16/2009, -2/+4The only time you should have to manually edit the config file for most modern distros is if you either are using a non standard monitor like a tv set or your using an ancient monitor that doesn't have the EDID info. I picked up a nice 20 inch lcd widescreen display and linux detects it just fine with zero config.
- compacho, on 05/16/2009, -0/+2I wouldn't mind that at all.
- inactive, on 05/16/2009, -1/+3You have to edit red edit to configure some non standard display settings on Windows drive for intel. So its not just a problem with Linux.
- ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -0/+1Me neither.
- timlump, on 05/16/2009, -0/+1Well bear in mind that things like keyboards are better with the ps/2 plugs as they can support more key presses simultaneously.
- rageguy, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Indeed. Assuming you could max out USB 2.0 with no overhead.
1680 pixels * 1050 pixels * 16 colour bits * 17 fps = 479.81mbits
Which is fairly impressive. Not to mention compression, low resolutions and in-screen graphics processing will most likely make it all a lot easier to get the required mbits a lot lower and the colour bits and fps up a bit higher. For example.
1366 pixels * 768 pixels * 22 colour bits * 24 fps with 15% compression = 470.83mbits
HD video anyone?
In any case we're talking even smaller resolutions for the purpose of using these monitors as auxiliary displays. - inactive, on 05/16/2009, -1/+2This is for small screens that are used as a dedicated display area for little widgets/gadgets.
- ArvinJA, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1@theone3, I did't say anything about multi-user, I just said "two different xorg sessions on two monitors", entirely different thing from multiseat and what have you.
- mashedup, on 05/17/2009, -1/+2Actually you're knocking Linux's strength - advanced customizations via savable config files.
I for one *love* the fact I can edit the config for my display for the advanced features - I have a job where I have to setup 8 displays in parallel. Thank God I can save that setup as a xorg file and use it again and again. I would cry without this ability. And for standard setup the auto detect works fine, and has done for years and everyone knows it.
So quit moaning the fact that Linux gives you ALL the options. If it's not for you then don't use it. - ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -2/+3You have no clue.
- tk0680, on 05/21/2009, -0/+1Waaaait.
What do you think Windows does? Its GUI edits config files (/registry keys) too, they're just hidden away where you can't get scared by them. The only difference is that Linux gives you the GUI option AND the text editor option should you want it.
Choice is just so damn dangerous, isn't it? - theone3, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Forgetting the bogus 'uncompressed' discussion (it's worked for years), reasons for use are:
- Toshiba DynaDock to be used in an office environment with exchangable workspaces
- Office projector (no VGA/HDMI/DVI/S-VHS/DisplayPort adaptors all over the place)
- For a third, forth, fifth (etc) monitor on a laptop with only one output
- For a many-display desktop (e.g. a stock traders desktop)
i.e. Some people actually do *work* with their computers? They like this idea. - theone3, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Ugh. It's called the 'reply' button.
Incidentally the DisplayPort has great performance on 1920x1080 screens on their Win/Mac drivers, so the performance doesn't necessarily have to suck. - thcobbs, on 05/16/2009, -0/+1"What if you had an accelerated video adapter with USB output? What then?"
You'd be paying way more than what the card is worth...... - MrMeikel, on 05/16/2009, -0/+1Thanks. I was coming at it from a consumer-large-display PoV with games etc, where with current spec. it won't be too useful.
Out of that list, the PnP mobile display for headless servers really would be very nice. Apart from config though most things can be done via shell/SSH/whatever.
I know a bit about computers, but not an amazing amount about OSs - anyone care to explain how easy/likely that these USB screen drivers could be used for showing boot screen etc. Before any OS is loaded, the BIOS (or whatever) still displays things on screen, I don't know the specifics so I'm asking how. :) - theone3, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1'Long as they give us more than 4 ports already...
- mdshort, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1Well technically the number of keys the number of combination keys depends on the architecture of the keyboard itself. In fact, a USB keyboard can ultimately support more key presses simultaneously because USB has more bandwidth than your standard PS2 port.
That is the major difference between a cheap keyboard and a more expensive keyboard. - Brasolis, on 05/17/2009, -0/+1tl;dr but you get a digg for effort!
- r3bol, on 05/16/2009, -2/+2Good for DisplayLink or maybe MS are paying less backhanders?
- inactive, on 05/17/2009, -2/+2http://bayimg.com/image/iaomkaabo.jpg
- mynameisdi, on 05/16/2009, -0/+0I really want my computer to just have USB ports and that's it. So that everything could be connected with each other using a single set of wires.
They just need to be faster. - thedogfatherx, on 05/16/2009, -6/+6No. No it's not.
- mctom987, on 05/16/2009, -1/+1It uses caching, among other things.
You were probably figuring it at 32bit color and 60fps.
The display may show at 60Hz, but it doesn't mean it's getting 60Hz. Think of it like a video game--you may be getting 10FPS, but your monitor is still showing 60.
Also, compression could drop that down 20-70% (depending on complexity).
Further, it's likely only 24 bit color. (even 32 bit color only has 24bits of color data)
When you take all this into account, you could easily power a 1680x1050 display over USB. - ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -1/+1s/rock/*****
- theone3, on 05/17/2009, -1/+1No, I know this, but all Ubuntu did was provide inadequate support for laptop + docking station + screen dual screen scenarios and remove the only way of manually configuring it. In windows, I just plug the screen in and it asks me what I want to do with it.
- Rubis1, on 05/16/2009, -0/+0This is also for devices that don't have room for a full video out port, but have USB. Most of the time a screen is only needing to update a certain portion, such as a mouse moving. I don't know if that is how these chips work, but that would considerably bring down the bandwidth requirements.
- ArvinJA, on 05/16/2009, -1/+1@Suricou, that's a good thing, there's so many different setups for multiple monitors, as I said before, i wanted two different xorg sessions for two different monitors, some want an extended desktop and what have you. Therefor, configuration is awesome.
- zer0mass, on 05/16/2009, -2/+1I only had to edit mine because I'm doing non standard stuff on a non standard setup. Over clocking with dual video cards. Other than that all single card systems I've installed Ubuntu/Kubuntu on have worked out of the box with no config file editing.
- RPGmaster, on 05/16/2009, -3/+2I wish Linux haters would stop saying stuff like this :(
- xgunterx, on 05/16/2009, -2/+1Again on the acid?
http://www.occultcorpus.com/forum/showthread.php?p ... - LonelyTylenoL, on 05/16/2009, -2/+1like candy?
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