What is Digg?85 Comments
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -3/+42Ok, just make sure not to wear out your hand.
- Lowspirit, on 10/10/2007, -3/+41The whole thing that started this was that Colivas SD scheduler had been tested to death over a long period of time in his -ck tree and proved to do the job well and he started on it before it even got "popular" to tune things for the desktop like recent efforts, then when the main kernel developers start to feel pressure to improve their scheduler along comes Ingo and makes this completely new one (CFS) and in only months it's considered for inclusion in the mainline kernel tree, not quite fair to Colivas hard work. Andrew Morton puts alot of effort into desktop aimed patches so I'm not worried. This is the geekiest comment I've ever written, I must go have sex in the garage for the rest of the day to make up for it.
- nofrak1, on 10/10/2007, -3/+24He always said he was one. The guy does what he thinks is right, and in the end, it's up to him to make the tough calls and if you disagree, tough. But's he's got a damn good track record - just ask any hurd developers you find.
- schestowitz, on 10/10/2007, -6/+26See the /whole/ thread. Don't take Linus's word blindly just because he leads the project. There is more than one side to this argument.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -2/+19I've read the thread and Linus is right here. Studies have shown there to be little difference between the staircase deadline and the completely fair scheduler under desktop loads. As for 3D gaming, there has been anecdotal reports of worse performance but no hard figures or theory as to why this is the case.
The only difference is that CFS is produced by someone who is known to work well with others while CK has argued with one or two people when bringing forward serious problems. The fact is the kernel works on more than the desktop and a scheduler that messes up these areas (SD does, CFS doesn't) is just not an option. Really what's pissed CK off is that CFS is SD except with the proposed fixes that he refused to make.
Could there have been a better solution, probably (losing Con isn't a good thing) but Linus has made the right decision here. Given what has happened you can understand both sides of the argument. It is possible for two people to do little or nothing wrong and still end up with acrimony. Probably I'd have gone for multiple CPU schedulers like we have multiple IO schedulers but given what evidence we've seen it would be a political cop out rather than for technical reasons. Linus doesn't make political cop outs. - bieber, on 10/10/2007, -2/+18Argh, I still can't reply for some reason, but this is directed at POPULATIONPASTE:
Your problem is that you completely misunderstand free software. The point of the whole thing is that if I don't like GNOME, I'm free to use KDE. And believe it or not, the fact that I don't actually use KDE isn't making it any more difficult for me to run KDE applications (amaroK is playing in the background as I type this). If user choice makes our system merely "an afterthought" to commercial developers, oh well. Who ***** cares. We'll just keep on using and improving it, "commercial developers" be damned. If you don't like that, then go back to your Windows, and stop trying to tell us that we need to be more like it: the point of GNU/Linux is to _not_ be like Windows. - trogdoor, on 10/10/2007, -5/+19I never thought I would ask this of you, and maybe I shouldn't but....
Links schestowitz? - stmiller, on 10/10/2007, -0/+13"Torvalds rebukes desktop critics"
Misleading. Con is mad that Linus doesn't like his scheduler. Linus happened to chose a different one, from a different developer. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Most Linux distributions aren't relevant (to the general public). You actually have to go look for things like Science Linux to see that they exist. As far as the user is concerned there are about 3/4 distributions.
- Daishiman, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9And thank heavens Torvals is an *****. Remember that the kernel receives literally hundreds of patch sumbmissions daily. Do you want every Joe Coder getting a buggy POS patch into the tree? I sure as hell wouldn't. Kernel development isn't easy, and you gotta measure up to the best to get your stuff in there.
Linus made an excellent decision, and the CFS scheduler is on all benchmarks equal or better than SD without being a klutch, and it's written by the same person who will be in charge of maintaining it.
Sometimes your patches don't get approved. Move on then and make something better.. It's too bad Kon wasn't willing to do that and instead complain to the testers. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8There is an entire section on something Linus has done. Just a thought.
He has been leading the kernel team for almost two decades now. He must be doing something right otherwise people would just fork and bypass him (and he supports their right to do so, in fact he encourages it). - Otto, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7The whole conversation was part of this thread: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/7/22/218
I think it starts around here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/7/27/423
Linus starts talking here: http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/7/27/426 - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8Linus actually has good social skills where he needs them. What you have to recognise is that this whole SD thing is a long drawn out affair and the arguments have been back and forth so long it is tiresome. Linus is just trying to end the argument by being brutally honest.
- epohs, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8"Linus Torvalds ... has reacted angrily"
I'm Shocked!!.. wait... no, I'm not shocked at all. - rmxz, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7The kernel has little to do with why the desktop sucks:
http://lwn.net/Articles/192214/
https://ols2006.108.redhat.com/reprints/jones-reprint.pdf
http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2006/view_abstract.php?content_key=193 - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5CFS is based off the same principles as SD. It's just the answer to proposed problems with SD was always 'Make two versions of Linux' while a hell of a lot of effort has gone into fixing weaknesses with CFS.
To follow up on the 3D gaming stuff. This was just posted on slashdot
http://kerneltrap.org/node/14023 - arjie, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4See, I'm not one of those Linus fanatics, but that's ridiculous. Why don't you just go look at the git logs or cvs logs or whatever. I think that'd be better for what you want. Personally, I won't digg an article that says Linus' #55234 CVS commit changes the garble-blagh state machine to a oobli-bog state machine because I have no freaking clue what that is and I couldn't care less. The simple hard work isn't as interesting as a controversy.
- Ravatar, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4"This is also, btw, why I think that people who argue for splitting desktop kernels from server kernels are total morons, and only show that they don't know what the hell they are talking about."
Pretty closed minded and arrogant. - OrangeTide, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5I don't even like using desktop computers. And the margins on selling servers are so much bigger. But really it's a bunch of made up crap that Linux doesn't work for the desktop.
I can show you a very popular mainstream OS that will hang and refuse to redraw windows while it waits for a CD/DVD rom to spin up. Linux desktops don't seem to do this. - Otto, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Con explains why he's ticked off pretty well, in this original post where CFS was released in April:
http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/4/14/199 - vfrex, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7So what you are saying, Rauz, is that Linus is where he is today, a position of leadership in OS development, not because of his social skills, but because of his technical skills. What a terrible concept, that a person most qualified for a job gets it...
- jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4True...For the person who doesn't know much and can't handle that list, there are really only 3 or 4 distros out there for them (Ubuntu, Fedora, Suse and maybe Debian).
- msgyrd, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Choice is a good thing, and other than breaking the look/feel of the desktop just a little bit, installing both GTK and KDE is still smaller than a Vista install. You end up with two different ways of doing things, but it was your choice to do that. And really, how many apps are that specific that are still considered "the best" that everyone wants to run? The only one that comes to mind is K3B..
- msgyrd, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6You're an idiot. It's still open and free. You're still free to patch the kernel as you see fit (like many people did with -ck patches before), but the kernel development team is opting not to distribute desktop specific improvements as the default kernel release, especially when the improvements are minimal.
Open does not mean "hey, lets include everything". - jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Yeah...Except for CREATING the kernel and maintaining it for 16 years...Also, if you look in the changelogs, at least 25% of the changes are from Linux...which is a huge amount considering how there are probably a few hundred people who regularly work on the kernel.
- rauz, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Being "pc" and worrying about your image is not the same as having well developed social skills, this is the reason a lot of employers (at least here in northern Europe) look more at someones EQ than his/her IQ.
- scottmillerinva, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4"the point of GNU/Linux is to_not_be like Windows." I hope that was emotion talking and not your real understanding of GNU/Linux. Neither the GNU nor Linux are simple reactions to Microsoft and Windows. Maybe YOU completely misunderstand the discussion. And who is "us"? Are you the spokesman of a group I missed?
- socokoolaid, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3That's my take on it from the article.
- stoanhart, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3That's because these days he spends more time managing than coding. Stuff like this, deciding which scheduler to use and all of the performance considerations and trade-offs that go with it (not to mention dealing with the people drama) is what he ends up doing.
- daftman, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Notice that often, the ones that are with great social skills are the ones that has least technically. Most politician/leaders that you mentions don't have much technical knowledge. But they have enough social skills to convince you that they do.
SInce this industry, the software engineering industry is about technical knowledge, I would prefer someone like Linus instead of a ***** artist like Balmer or Gates. - geehossiphats, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2you wanna know who whines even more using profanity and throws objects around like a child?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/09/05/chair_chucking/ - justiceforsome, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Linus is not an *****, he's a European. They don't like small talk. And when the creator of the kernel speaks, you should listen to the technical points, not the tone. Please stop posting stories of linus' emotional state when he speaks. As for improvements on the desktop not happening, please. It keeps getting better and better everytime.
I definetly cannot say that for windows. It sucks so hard that god is still laughing. At my company the ceo called me in to find out what happened to his volume icon above his clock and why it still disappears randomnly even in todays world under XP . I had to explain to him that microsoft regurgitates the same operating system over and over again under a new name every few years but they generally don't fix the old bugs because they don't care. He looked at me like I had mutated into a bigmac. - Theli, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2""IM RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG.. MORON IDIOT" conveys more or less the same point as "I feel that my approach is the best one to use", however one is completely devoid of tact and courtesy."
Personally I don't like any of those, and I would not respect anyone for using them. The first is abusive while the second is evasive.
I'd prefer: "My approach is better because...". - MrPotato, on 10/10/2007, -4/+6Agreed. I realize that having a choice can be a good thing but this list is ridiculous: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions
- scottmillerinva, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2I hope you're not seriously that ignorant.
- Phssthpok, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5How is that being an *****?
--"The whole argument about how kernel developers think that the desktop isn't important is totally made-up crap."--
OMG What an *****. How dare he not bend over and take it.!!!!!!! - kazamx, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3While the change to CFS won't make a huge difference in the desktop v server debate, I believe it is a debate worth having.
Most of the money coming into Linux comes from big companies who are pretty much only using linux on their servers. Yes the developers might use linux on a desktop but their employers are paying them to improve their server software. I am hearing more and more that if it ever comes down to a trade off between server performance and desktop performance it will always end up with the server winning.
I don't know what the solution is, but I think its a debate that we should have out in the open, and overall linux will benefit from it. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Well there was a time in ancient history where 2.4 was brilliant for the server but sucked a little for the desktop (this was when CK started with his patch set to improve the desktop experience). 2.6 is fully pre-emptable and runs much better on the desktop.
- daftman, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2There are many choices in choosing a automobile to drive. Automobile a driven by end users. You need to get out of that narrow, shallow frame of thought. The beauty of Linux is that it is designed by the community thus it is susceptible to debates technological or political. Closed-System are developed and designed by an authoritarian corporation to a deadline, so it meets the corporation's interests much more than it meets the end users 'interest.
Linux is mainstream as much as how Windows was mainstream back when Mainframe ruled. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the technology. It's just the type of thinking by people like you that's the problem. - trogdoor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Where are you getting that 99% of Linux users use it as a desktop?
- ordminute, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Ahh.., I know what it's like. I wish there was just One kind of music, One kind of fashion, One kind of haircut, One kind of car and hell.. One government to rule them all.
Choice sucks doesn't it. Completely agree. Fragmentation everywhere.. I don't know what the world's coming to.
*BTW Linux is the fastest growing operating system. You'll buy a phone one day and oops.. there you are - a Linux user ;) - stmiller, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Linus is working to make sure Linux doesn't split into different projects. The schedule and changes for the 2.6.23 kernel make Linux perform great as both server and desktop.
- OBKenobi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2The sheep are the ones with the $$$.
- jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4I agree with the way linux does things...He might be an *****, but if he's right, does it really matter? I'm described as an ***** too sometimes because i talk the same way Linus does...I don't care about politics, i don't sugar-coat *****, I get straight to the blunt point so that it can't be taken any way other than the way i mean it. Linus does this as well and i honestly think everyone should be this way...People care too much about being politically correct or worrying about their image.
- Ravatar, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3It's not about sugar-coating anything at all, it's about recognizing the opinions and thoughts of others as valid, and maintaining a bit of courtesy when addressing people.
"IM RIGHT YOU'RE WRONG.. MORON IDIOT" conveys more or less the same point as "I feel that my approach is the best one to use", however one is completely devoid of tact and courtesy. - geminitojanus, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Here's the real question: What studies? Where were they published? Where can I read such studies?
It's all good and well to say they exist, but it's piss-poor to insist they do, claiming your product to be better, and then not put forward any proof it exists at all. - OneAndOnlySnob, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1And it's because of Linux's open nature that you can even see the stupid things it does. Lord knows what Windows does, although I've used a registry monitoring program and witnessed it attempt to read the same registry key more than 1000 times in a row. Lots of programs do stuff like this! Maybe all sufficiently large projects behave stupidly from time to time.
- joe7845, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Good social skills can be counter-productive. Someone with good social skills probably would not have spent 6 months in his parents' basement writing a kernel - that would be my guess.
- Darkhacker, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I've definitely noticed this. I used to work as the editor-in-chief of a website and more than half my job was dealing with politics. Back when I was just a programmer and not in charge I could write code all day and get it implemented with no questions. It's odd how no one questioned me until I was put in charge. THEN they had to argue with me over my code. I can't count how many times I had to be an *****. The nice thing about open source is that most work is done online. When you are an ***** in real life, you can't ignore it as easily. I've even had moments where people will bitch at me behind my shoulder while I am coding. Nearly every time that has happened though, it has been all talk with no code or progress to show me how their idea is somehow better.
- Ravatar, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1in private.
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