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106 Comments
- KayMan2k, on 10/11/2007, -28/+99Taboo? No.
Immature? Yes. - geocator, on 10/11/2007, -6/+68If they would release what patents where being released then it would be possibly not FUD. But until then thats all it is. The fact is they don't want to be SCO and have it proven that there claims are false, so they refuse to release the offending patent info.
I agree that the possibility exists, however it is the lack of action on MS's part that makes it FUD. - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+55I know it to be the case, there is a patent on FAT32 so vfat infringes. Fact is we don't care. MS would never do anything without risking all out patent warfare. Fact is the system is broken. Start enforcing it and no one can make software any more. There are two possibilities:
1. MS does nothing.
2. MS does something and the resultant war leads to the abolition of software patents.
I'm happy in either case. In fact I think I'd prefer 2 to remove this faux sword of Damocles from it's position above our heads. - GreenGrassyNoel, on 10/11/2007, -2/+40FUD is an abbreviation for Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt, a sales or marketing strategy of disseminating negative but vague or inaccurate information on a competitor's product. The term originated to describe misinformation tactics in the computer software industry and has since been used more broadly.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FUD - sundancekid503, on 10/11/2007, -7/+29"Linux doesn't in NO way infringe MS copyright..."
So they do? - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+25M$ is just trying to scare away dell and other vendors from selling ubuntu pcs. Of course those people looking for a new cheap pc are going to select the cheap dell with ubuntu. This makes M$ very afraid that vista will go by the side.
- Fartag, on 10/11/2007, -14/+37Immature?! Isn't Microsoft a convicted monopoly? Isn't their primary goal to secure as much cash as possible even at the expense of standards, compatibility, freedom and computing progress? There's a mind boggling _enormity_ of legitimate complaints against Microsoft and yet people still worry about the trifling use of "M$"?
Maybe a Star Wars(tm) analogy will help. Microsoft OS = Emperor Palpatine with whom many of you would like to make out with for some reason. Clearly Linux and other OSS = Natalie Portman. Don't kiss an old man's ass that wants to crush you and your freedoms while extracting whatever good is left in you. Choose instead beauty, grace and technical superiority over the long term, and as always choose freedom! - TehDoctor, on 10/11/2007, -5/+28I'm no expert at this, but I can imagine Linux might infringe some patents (it has backwards-engineered acpi stuff, does that count?), it's just that those patents wouldn't really stand up in court. Afaik patents have to be for "non-obvious" things. If two people try to program around a problem, they will likely come up with a similar solution. Patents work for things you need machinery to produce, like a new kind of microchip or alloy or something, but when anyone can open up a text editor, write some code, and run it through gcc, patents seem to not fit.
- ivanmarsh, on 10/11/2007, -2/+24MS is talking about patents like "viewing output in a window".
You can get a patent on something blatantly obvious or on something that already existed, legally enforcing that patent is an entirely different story.
The U.S. patent system is a joke. The MS claims are FUD. - Philluminati, on 10/11/2007, -0/+19I guess patent infringement is OK as long as a company doesn't explicitly tell you not to steal their technology"
Why should change Linux to avoid patents IF WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE? It's just a lie by Gates and Ballmer until we see that list. THEN we can change the kernel etc etc. Don't be so ***** ignorant in future.
Anyone looking for an MS fanboy earlier? His name is Topher - cantormath, on 10/11/2007, -13/+31I see nothing wrong with M$ for MS.......
- user23, on 10/11/2007, -4/+19Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, a not yet patented Microsoft strategy...
- jopsen, on 10/11/2007, -10/+24Please leave copyright out of the discussion, it NOT relevant... Linux doesn't in NO way infringe MS copyright...
Patents is another thing, and I think that isvery possible that linux infringes a lot of those... But I also think that many of them would be circumvented if Microsoft released details... Furthermore there's the question of whether or not all of these patents are valied i a court... Some of them possibly has a lot of prior art too... - geocator, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14Of course Microsoft has the right to defend their patents. That is not the issue, and not what Tovalds said. The issue is that MS refuses to reveal what patents are being violated. This is pure FUD. You can not expect anyone to take MS seriously when they won't back up their claims with any facts.
- geocator, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12Full of ***** != FUD they are two completely different concepts. FUD is a concerted effort. Full of ***** is just well ... that.
- GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+16ACPI is an open standard so isn't a problem.
- Ratteler, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12Dear Topher06,
In your post you used no less that 3 phrases that I have an explicit copyright on.
I'm not going to tell you which 3 phrases you used, that I own, but if you continue to use them, I may seek legal reparation for damages based on you illegal use on my copyrighted phrases.
It would probably be safest for you if you just curtailed all posts until we can work out an arrangement where you can pay me for the privilege to post regardless of whether or not you use my copyrighted material.
Hey... if your defending M$ right to do it, why not defend mine? - bennyfreshness, on 10/11/2007, -13/+24whats FUD?
- GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+13Not always as simple as that. Software patents are vague. How do you code around a patent on FAT32. Either you can read and write to FAT32 or you can't. There is no work around as such. You can move it out of the kernel and into a FUSE module to clean the kernel but that's just shifting the problem.
Some indeed can be worked around but not all. - Mejogid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11That hasn't stopped half their other patents...
- Langford, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10Good point.
- socalrob, on 10/11/2007, -7/+17Soon Microsoft will Patent Air and Light, and maybe even life, going after God, who's representitives "churches" will have to pay his legal fees.
Then will be the second coming of Jesus, in which Microsoft will have a patent on Armageddon calling it the new name of their anti-virus bundled with MS One-Care. - Langford, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11They can't, they copied the tactic from others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt - dogstar0125, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13I seriously doubt that Linux infringes on Microsoft patents in any significant way. The Linux kernel shares more in common with Unix (duh) than with Windows. I doubt that Microsoft has any enforceable patents for the user interface -- the Windows UI is for the most part just a rip off of the Xerox/Parc, Macintosh, XWindows, etc. I also doubt that they have any enforceable patents that they can bring to bear on Open Office. If Linux infringes at all, it will be for relatively trivial features (someone mentioned vfat) that can be dropped or worked around. I completely agree, this is just bullying and FUD. If Microsoft is trying to piss of the world, it's succeeding.
- SOS84, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9The ten million dollar question is one constantly asked by the open source community, can you patent an algorithm? According to patent law, no you cannot, it is a mathematical equation. Despite the patent office issuing many patents, under the strictest letter of the law, they are bogus. Though court cases have introduced a lot of grey area to the subject matter, given the fact that patent law is explicitly mentioned in the constitution and has a well developed legal history, if any case brought by Microsoft were to make it to the Supreme Court, under the current makeup, it would likely be dismissed. I suspect this is a shakedown. They must know that they do not have a strong case, Torvald et al know this and are just daring them to do something.
- Philluminati, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Firstly prior out counts for a lot. In 2000 ms got a patent for UAC which is effectively sudo. You have to remember that Linux is closely linked to UNIX who's development was in the public domain. But I concur, some of the patents i've seen include "the focus following the mouse" (which gnome / kde) obvious violate. In a real court I doubt that would stand up as either a novel or applicable patent. The more patents MS take out, the more they undermine a system which could of protect those novel inventions they have. The truth is Linux doesn't owe anything to Microsoft and Microsoft can win a thing from them. If it were one important patent then maybe. But it's 200 wishy washy stupid patents. There is nothing that can be done by MS.
Way to go Linus :-) I'm on your side all the way!!! - geocator, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9You obviously have not read any of the comments here or really read what Tovalds has said, or likley don't have a real understanding of what the term FUD means. Tovalds simply stated that if MS will not back up their claims with proof, then the are spewing FUD. This is a accurate statement. This is simply a PR stunt for Microsoft to try and dissuade people from using Linux, which they see as a possible threat to their market share. If it was not a stunt they would be releasing details of the offending patents. However they know that if the release details, the internet community will likely rip those claims to shreds, similar to what happened to SCOs claim.
I believe that MS has no thought of suing over these patents. They just want the media hype to scare the uneducated. And this is the definition of FUD.
One interesting point is that if a company does not defend a patent when they know it is being violated, in some cases invalidates any future claims to those patents. MS may just be shooting themselves in the foot in more ways than one with this. - Ratteler, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Most important word in your post?
"force"
"What are you prepared to do?" - rmxz, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8piratechaos wrote: "Am I the only one who thinks it conceivable that linux does infringe on some MS patents? I mean, MS has a TON of stuff patented and/or copyrighted. I don't see it as FUD when they say that Linux is infringing on some of their IP."
Sure Linux might infringe on some patents, and Windows infringes on others.
The FUD part is saying "we know Linux infringes but we won't tell you where".
Also, I thought if Microsoft does know that Linux in infringing but does nothing to tell Linux customers what patents are infringed upon where, doesn't that weaken their ability to go after those users later? - init100, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7I guess we're lucky that the US isn't the entire world then. :P
- shakajumbo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Alleged Linux patent violations = 42
Ultimate Answer to the Great Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything = 42
coincendence? - MacParrot, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Right, because the way he looks has SO much to do with this post
- hobophobe, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5This is FUD. No. Sorry. Try again friend. You broke rule number one: don't fear bozos. The AG, the Prez, et al. are nothing but a lot of hot air stuffed into human-shaped sacks. Don't fear them. Don't fear the RIAA/MPAA. Don't give these groups the pleasure of your fear, for it is by fear alone they hold any power whatsoever.
The Constitution overrules many of their actions and other laws are in place to protect consumers. Simply because on Monday you get a speeding ticket doesn't mean come Wednesday the absurd law that said "Give richardtallent a speeding ticket on Monday" will be held by a court to be enforceable or that the jury will not nullify the law through their deliberation.
If you for one second believe that Yahoos are winning then they just might. Try to see through their ruse.
A perfect example is the current and past approval ratings of the Prez. It took time to drop to where it is, and one of the big reasons it was so sluggish is that a lot of the people who now disapprove were looking around and seeing everyone maintain approval. A lot of people won't let their true opinions be known until others do first. The old 'first in the pool' dilemma.
To recap, you make a dichotomy of us living in a 'false' world of 'should be' versus reality being 'what is.' And I am saying that your view of 'what is' actually is flawed. That the power of government and commerce is retained by the people under any and all circumstances and therefore the powers that be are ineffective bozos that have taken their shot at scaring us into line but we have the choice not to fear bozos and to enforce the underlying principles of society that allow its very existence. - Philluminati, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7
look you can't just say "we'll violate your patent and steal your market and share"...oh whoops your angry "I'll just program around it now". If a companies patents are stolen and it effects their profits then MS are entitled to compensation.
Unfortunetly the patents in question have to be real *non-obvious* patents and fulfil the patent criteria. Not just rubber stamped sheets of paper IMHO. - prammy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5@piratechaos
Though I dugg you up, I disagree with the latter part of your statement.
The first part of your statement about Linux possibly infringing patents belonging to Microsoft is true. Linux _might_ infringe some patents. However the way Microsoft puts that information out is pure FUD.
Secondly, since they won't divulge exactly what part of what patent is being infringed in the kernel, it leads me to believe that those patents may not be as valid as they are made out to be. For example, if contested, there might be a possibility that Microsoft's patent may be invalidated. Remember that the USPTO is giving out software patents are which were too obvious , for example Amazon's one click shopping. Who is to say that many of MIcrosoft's, or even IBMs or Sun's patents are not as obvious?
If they were serious about their patents being violated in Linux, they would come out and say 'Look, you are infringing section X of Patent ABC". But they are not. They are using 'possible violations' to instill Fear, Uncertainity and Doubt in the minds of IT PHBs all over, and Fear, Uncertanity & Doubt = FUD. - init100, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4You should read up on FUD, the term isn't likely to go away soon. From the Wikipedia article about FUD:
"The idea, of course, was to persuade buyers to go with safe IBM gear rather than with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment or software."
This piece is about IBM rather than Microsoft, since IBM used FUD as a strategy against Amdahl Corporation, a competitor founded by a former employee of IBM, Gene Amdahl. Nowadays, Microsoft is the most prominent user of FUD as a marketing strategy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt - bonedog73, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6All this will do is bolster the Linux community and fortify their hold on public opinion. People love to vote for the underdog. Besides who is MS going to sue, the entire Linux community in general? RIAA anyone...?
- init100, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4@brandf
"really, considering Vista market share is already greater than Linux, I dont think they're sweating too much."
How can you tell? Doing statistics on the number of installed Linux systems is hard, since the system can be legally copied freely. Some distros, but far from all, have tried to do some estimates of the number of installed systems with those distros, but those numbers are hardly an exact measure.
So again, I'd like to know how you can assert with any confidence that Vista is already greater (in terms of marketshare) than Linux. - mjw2025, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3The first order of any business is to make a profit and any public company for the stockholders. The world of linux is a collaborative effort and not a business. Two totally different efforts and hardly comparable.
- Langford, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I couldn't help but be reminded of the old Apple vs Microsoft copyright lawsuits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_v._Microsoft - Fartag, on 10/11/2007, -8/+11Why do you hate freedom, flag564? Besides, using "Linsucks" derogatorily against Linux has no basis in reality, it's just misinformative.
- Fritzel, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds
- geronimo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4"Be careful what you wish for when you keep goading MS on this."
I wish for this because the patent system works based on what is known as 'mutually assured destruction'. Everyone agrees not to sue eachother and it works, the second one party decides to sue is when the system kicks in, and the entire world joins in and Microsoft has nuclear fallout. The world benefits from Linux and the world has more frivolous patents than microsoft's frivolous and ridiculous patents. All IBM has to do is walk into Ballmer's office with a suitcase full of ridiculous patents, open it up, walk away, Ballmer changes his shorts and he forgets he ever tried to stiffle competition via baseless patent threats. After that maybe Ballmer can start focusing on gaining market share with innovation vs trying to make it so you don't have the freedom to use linux. If people are switching to Linux because of beryl, how about creating a competitive beryl clone for Windows? - sportscheck, on 10/11/2007, -7/+10MS must show the patents ... if they have. They are acting like high school bully. We (Linux community) can correct code in Linux to get around THE PATENTS.
MS , stop bullying Linux users. - fantasticFlan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Thing is, when Apple goes after patent infringement, they say which patents are being infringed upon and how*, MS isn't doing that here.
*I'm actually guessing here, but I bet I'm right. - Phocion55, on 10/11/2007, -3/+6"I think I would not simply wave them aside."
That's what everyone did the last three times they pulled this stunt. - digitalranger, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2Yep, dug down. You DON'T know what FUD means.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty%2C_and_doubt
What Microsoft are doing is the very definition of FUD, just like SCO vs IBM. - OBKenobi, on 10/11/2007, -3/+5MS should be sued for spreading this FUD. This is industrial sabotage. Or something.
- Reno582, on 10/11/2007, -2/+4Its no secret that Microsoft does and has combed over Linux source code, if they found something they would have sued already. My opinion is that the copyright laws do have a purpose, and if there is fault between one company and another company, they are within their rights to bring suit on the latter. Im staying out of this argument but if Microsoft has a case, then I say bring in a third party to mediate.
- GyroTech, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3@brundlefly76
The problem is that patent law basically says that if someone is infringeing on your patent and you don't do your best to inform the infringer and work something out (either licensing or removeal of infrigning parts), then you take a huge hit on the damages you can claim, you may even loose the right to protect that patent.
When MicroSoft have patents on the horizontal and vertical movement of mouse cursors, I have no doubt as to Linux probably infringing on some. But these patents must hold up in court and be shown as inovative and created by MS in order for them to be of any use. I don't see that happening any time soon. -
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