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92 Comments
- sugardaddy4242, on 10/12/2007, -6/+43I'm a huge Linux fan and run Slackware on my personal computer, but I am getting a little tired of all the Microsoft bashing. Simply put, if you don't like windows then don't use it. Who cares what other people are running on their own machines.
- adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Microsoft doesn't mind open source. What it doesn't like is the GPL.
- vixiecron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20"Don't make me laugh. Anyone who tries to learn useability from LINUX is insane. Mac? Maybe. Linux? No way!"
Maybe for some people. Linux is more usable in my opinion. There is documentation for most things and, if you're in the right frame of mind and willing to learn, you have a very reasonable chance of figuring out what's going on at any given time. Windows XP, on the other hand, is a fiasco. Three words come to mind -- undocumented registry entry. Sure, most things are easy to configure. But if you ever want to do something slightly unorthodox, you have to fight the interface to make it happen. There's nothing more frustrating than delving into the control panel in order to customize something and, after several mind-numbing hours staring at colorful listboxes and dancing paperclips, coming up short.
"I'd rather have 1 consistent window manager then 3 different competing ones thanks."
I want 3, 4, 5, 6, or perhaps 25 different window managers to choose from. That way, if I hate one, I can try another, and another, and another if need be. I don't want a standard interface shoved down my throat.
"The windows command shell may not be perfect, but it works, and with the scripting tools that come with Windows, you can automate pretty much anything you need to. Why spend gobs of money improving it when so very, very few people use it?"
Forgive me if I'm behind the times, but isn't Microsoft doing just that? Don't they have a version of their new shell floating around somewhere?
"In fact, I'm trying to think of any truly big companies that even HAVE a mascot."
Geico for one. McDonalds has several. What would Microsoft's mascot be, if it had one? A giant paperclip? - dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+142. Usability
Linux isn't that difficult, install any programs with a package manager such as Synaptic or even apt. You want IM? Click Gaim. You want the Web? Click Firefox. E-mail? Click Thunderbird. It's not that hard at all. - madc0w, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22How about stop being *****? That would kinda work.
- jadacyrus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13
">> Efficient window managers
I'd rather have 1 consistent window manager then 3 different competing ones thanks."
Eww.. No way man. The more choices the merrier. That's why I switched to Linux in the first place. Freedom of Choice. I like having the option to have one user using gnome and another user using fluxbox.
Please don't make the mistake of thinking anyone who really likes and uses Linux everyday wants their operating system to turn into some WIndows-Clone thats sanitized for dumb Windows users.
And BTW, Thats the best part about Linux, you can never kill it. If someone ever tries there will always be another spin-off and another distribution. - i440, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15@sugardaddy4242
The world needs more people like you. - Tyrax, on 10/12/2007, -12/+24"Someday, somehow, there's going to be a major Windows virus or rootkit assault that's going to make all the other big virus attacks look like a summer shower compared to Katrina."
FUD comes from both sides - championchap, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14What the hell?!
Digging Weav down, what for exactly.. telling him the truth?
Another article this guy wrote DID show what Linux could learn from Microsoft, and that to me says that no, this is defiantly not Windows bashing what so ever. - fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11.NET != XML Web services.
.NET = Dynamically-compiled (byte-code) languages with transparent interoperability between languages and programs. That's just a small part of the picture. Web services is a small part of the .NET platform through ASP.Net. .NET is what Java should have been. - i440, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15"The problem is that M$ policy in open source has traditionally been forking non-copylefted software and closing the source."
I don't see the problem with that. They can do so and not hurt the open source project in any way. - RetroRufio, on 10/12/2007, -16/+221. Security
2. Usability
3. Efficient window managers
4. Decent command shell (i.e. bash)
5. Use of penguins? - Weav, on 10/12/2007, -15/+21I'm not sure "bashing" was what the guy was doing. He made some valid points and if you look at his other article he gives some interesting insight on what Linux could do to become more mainstream and popular.
- flash200, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6i440: "Unfortunately, a market based exclusively on FOSS will lead to decreased employment and a decrease in salaries"
That's a typical reaction, but consider: 90% of the jobs in the software industry are for in-house software. FOSS has no effect there; it's simply another tool that people can use if it's helpful. Of the remaining 10%, for commercial software, most of it is highly specialized or domain intensive (games, medical software, tax software), areas in which FOSS is usually not a good fit.
Where FOSS excels the most is infrastructure or general-purpose software (operating systems, databases, office software, image editors, web servers, web browsers). Only in that area, which is at most 3 - 4% of the jobs in the software industry, does FOSS potentially threaten people's jobs. It seems more significant than it is job-wise because that 3 - 4% includes most of the really big software companies. - greyfade, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6you might find ESR's Cathedral and the Bazaar an enlightening read. he makes and addresses that very point. ...and then he says that's exactly the reason it worked in his own open source project.
- vixiecron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5An operating system can be *too* transparent. If it's so transparent that you don't really have any control over it at all and can't do necessary tweaking to ensure performance in some respect, then you have a real problem.
- NathanBalon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Even though Microsoft is one of the most profitable companies in the world it wouldn't hurt them to learn a thing or two from the open source community. If Microsoft wishes to maintain their advantage in the market place they need to be aware of their competitors. In any industry a company should always be addressing the advantages of their competition. A company, such as Microsoft, needs to continue to adapt to the market place. The OS market is very different now from when MS first introduced Windows.
Also, someone else mentioned that a problem with Linux is there is no standard window environment. I think it is a great advantage to be able to use either KDE, XFce, or Gnome. I primarily use KDE, but often I will switch to Gnome for a few months at a time just to have something different. I personally feel that KDE and Gnome are much better than what is offered on windows. - CharlesDarwin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6They could open source all they wanted, but I still wouldn't be their customer.
- gaijin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I don't see this as MS bashing at all. The title of the article tells exactly what it is. The writer never meant for it to be an even-handed, unbiased article. This is a "polemic" in the same way that Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is NOT a documentary. It's meant to show one side of an issue. This is time honored tradition that dates back (in this country, at least) to the founding fathers' rants against King George.
Sadly, in our overly PC society, this style of writing has been all but forgotten and when it is used will likely get the writer called a Nazi. - tech10171968, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I switched to Debian (Etch) some time ago and haven't looked back since. Regardless of being a die-hard *NIX/*BSD fan, I still think the Microsoft bashing is getting a little old; maybe those of us in the Linux world should just concentrate on helping with improving Linux instead.
Besides, XP and 2000 are really not that bad: they are probably the most stable operating systems ever put out by Redmond and, if you trash IE6 and just use Firefox or Opera (and practice some common sense regarding your e-mail and surfing habits) you shouldn't have a problem with using them. That's what I did, and I never had a problem with viruses/trojans/etc the whole time I was on XP.
Maybe comparing Linux to Windows is like comparing apples to oranges; each serves its own purpose. Personally, I switched to Linux because (1) I like to tinker, and (2) Linux affords me a certain level of control over my own system that I couldn't get in Windows. Someone else might have different needs from my own, and XP/2000 may be a better fit for what they're doing.
All this Microsoft bashing isn't really helping anyone. - vixiecron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Perhaps because they want us as customers.
- Neurofiend, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think the "bashing" he was referring to was from the comments in this thread, not in the article. Simple fact is everyone can learn from their competitors.
- vixiecron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I have absolutely no problem with Microsoft making money. Microsoft isn't any more greedy than your average corporation -- this 'greed' is the only thing that's going to give the stockholders a decent return on their investment. I have problems with their products and their general philosophy towards them and their users. This is market competition at its finest -- I don't like their products, so they don't get my business. I do like open source software and its general philosophy, so I use it instead. The fact that it's all free as in beer (except in my and other individuals' time) is just icing on the proverbial cake.
- jadacyrus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7You mean every year a Windows system gets hit by at least one major virus, while Linux and Mac computers stand back and laugh?
- jlabs, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9There is this belief in the Linux community that open sourcing an application will fix more bugs because there are more eyes watching it. I have been involved in many open source projects and this is almost never the case.
This is why: There are only only a small amount of people that actually have the knowledge or are willing to look through the source code (I would say around 1% or less). The rest are users. In this respect, there is no benefit. - Tsuroerusu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ i440
"Of course, that document is several years old and may be outdated."
!!! THIS MANIFESTO IS OVER 20 YEARS OLD !!!
Dude come on, the computer industry has changed A LOT since back then!!
Also, have you ever heard of companies like Linspire? They sell Free Software (Read Ricard Stallman's definition on this phrase). - Flamekebab, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3*laughs*
Linux *isn't* user-friendly?!
Are you living in 2001?
My 64 year old mother can use Ubuntu! She has no problems with it whatsoever!
Sit her down in front of Windows (which she's used for far longer) and then cancel the rest of your day's arrangements as you'll be helping her with problem after problem. - fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I could swear they make that same claim every year...
And every year, it turns out that it doesn't really matter because the computer ecoverse is robust enough to take these viruses in stride. (Yes, it's viruses, not virii). - XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2more like sudo, hehe... Yeah, the package management in linux (especially apt based) just rocks!
And fallenone05, companies like redhat and novell make ALOT of money a year (Read, some hundred/2 hundred million dollars), it's plenty for just 1 distribution of linux...
If you think about it, microsoft are experts at greed, they have more money than they actually need. - flash200, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I wouldn't call DRM and WGA transparent, as far as the user experience goes. More like "a jolting experience", to use their own words.
- SirZRX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4there is one more thing that microsoft can learn from linux:
A: "dude where do i download msn messenger, winamp ,a download manager and a anti spy ware?"
B: just paste this on the command prompt
Sudo apt-get install msnmsgr
Sudo apt-get install winamp
Sudo apt-get install flashget
Sudo apt-get install spybot
as IT that will make my life very easy - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+8Nyuk nyuk! What you don't know would fill a book! That's like saying "Tiger Woods doesn't need to learn anything about baseball from Sammy Sosa, because Tiger scores more holes-in-one." Sweetheart, the days when the technology world's progress could be measured in Monopoly-game money are quickly fading. Try thinking twenty years ahead, using the hindsight from the past twenty years.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Even on this momentous occasion when I agree with the sentiments of the title, Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols is still flat-out one of the biggest idiots writing in IT. He is an embarrassment to the FOSS community, or at least would be if the FOSS community paid any attention to him. He shows a childish naivette of even the most basic principles of computers. He is BIFF with a spell-checker.
- johnlewin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yeah, mac is very close to being completely transparent. I've seen some hardware to television apps coming out indicating that they are considering bailing the OS as an interface for some applications (such as digital cameras and some graphic apps).
But they are also proprietary with their technology limiting the market share. - misterjangles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I always think of .NET as a language independent framework that compiles to intermediate bytecode. I doesn't strike me as unusual or bad that non-programmers have trouble understanding what it is. If you're and end-user, who cares anyway!
What gets me is why MS went through all this effort, but doesn't release any virtual machines for anything other than Windows? I wish Microsoft would get behind the Mono project. It would be so sweet to write a .NET app and have it run anywhere. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"An operating system can be *too* transparent. If it's so transparent that you don't really have any control over it at all and can't do necessary tweaking to ensure performance in some respect, then you have a real problem."
I agree with this entirely. The general public however doesn't understand that a user friendly system means a heavily homogenous system and that homogenous systems are easier to crack irrespective of how many RPC calls Windows programs like to make.
Even a slightest character out of place can safe your system from attack in Linux and you aren't given this relief in Windows. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"2. Usability"
Bwahhaha you're funny. - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Vampire, you're clearly confusing revenue with profit. Go read an Intro to Business book, clearly needed.
- silentdud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Come on, don't be arrogant about this. Microsoft produces the number one selling operating system in the world. I think they know anything some person is going to post on some obscure linux forum/website.
- shawnz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A lot of this contradicts the original list, to be fair.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A bit of an oversight by this document is the use of remote procedure calls (RPC's) in Windows (by far its biggest flaw) instead of simple text pipes and sockets in Linux (and other Unix varients). RPC's expose you to the internet whenever you are moving between binary blob to binary blob, on the other hand pipes are weak by design in order to force encapsulation between modules.
In order to become secure a new Windows would certainly have to heavily restrict RPC's rather than making them standard. - silentdud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He's absolute right, the only incentive is scarcity. Be it money, love, or anything. This is just basic economics alright. General public license sounds amazing and all to uninformed people who attack the elitests who make the products but at the end of the day lunix is worth nothing because it is free. Noone wants to develop a free product except for experimenting little kids.
At the end of the free enterprise and demoncracy will prevail over communist nazi baby killers like general public lisense advocates. Open source and general public lisense is different... Microsoft has never opposed open source. - KCorax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> Microsoft doesn't mind open source. What it doesn't like is the GPL.
Actually they do mind open source, in the past they had used the BSD licence, then they didn't like it, then they turned to GPL then they rejected it etc etc with a couple more licences.
It doesn't take much though to understand that they do have a problem specifically with OSS. - Hiker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1From the article:
"It's also worth noting that Aero Glass requires extremely high-end graphics hardware. Xgl? I'm running it successfully on a plain-Jane PC with embedded Intel graphics."
Mind you... at least with Aero, EVERY app will run without probs fromthe fact he's running Aero. Sure, the guy might be running XGl on an average machine but there's sure as hell no way he'll be using XGl with his chosen window manager 100% of the time (and probably not before Vista ships either). I love Linux be coem on, if you're going to be making comparisons at least be relevent and talk about the IMPORTANT aspect of what you're comparing. It's one thing to be able to RUN XGl or Aero but it's certainly another to be using them in all situations. Why doesn't he talk about THAT? Cos it takes away from his article, that's why. Also, he talks about KISS. You also need to bear in mind this depends on what you're talking about. Some things in Linux ARE more complicated than in Windows. Take something simple like SAMBA. It's easier to set up sharing and permissions in Windows than it is in Linux. No editting of smb.conf in Windows, it's a fe of clicks and you're done. - Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Using them in all situations" ?
Compositing software works at the level of an entire desktop session. If you use Xgl, your whole desktop will be composited with Xgl. Everything that gets drawn to the screen will go through the compositing manager. - dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1 Like assuming all your customers are crooks?
Microsoft said WGA was a "critical update", it's just a tool to control you and force you to buy their OS in a store if not they'll shut it off using WGA, they said no they couldn't but what would be they point of WGA if not? They lied to everyone about what it was and assume all their customers are crooks. - flash200, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@dancpsu
It's more a case of OEMs being unwilling to open source their drivers, either because of licensing conflicts (portions of the code may have been licensed from other companies) or because doing so might reveal flaws in the hardware that they don't want competitors to know about.
Without those factors, they could just hand over the code and let the community do the work for them. - BobTurbo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@barius
I bet not even 1% of Linux users know who designed the IP stack that is helping them download their porn. And that is suppose to be motivation for the developer? It certainly doesn't put food on the table...
Money is not as shallow as you think it is. Most people who say that are unemployed idealists, still living at home making banners for their next protest rally. Money gives people a feeling of worthwhile. It is just a surrogate for something else. - barius, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"The only worthwhile incentive for anything is $$$..."
What are you, Ferengi? Did you buy your wife?
Seriously, I hope you have more in your life than $$$. I pity you. - KryptoniteKid, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4You've got to be kidding me. Christ, the minute you anti-MS types get a clue, you'll face the facts and realize that Linux doesn't offer the end-user support or QA that any MS product does. Open source is cute & all, but nothing more than a watered-down OS that is crippled from the getgo and way too much of a hassle for the typical user. Did the fall of Communism teach you nothing? The only worthwhile incentive for anything is $$$...Free, open source is good for those who can afford a less-usable system in addition to a commercial system, but not as a substitute. Grow up.
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