What is Digg?194 Comments
- ubuntumatthew, on 10/12/2007, -4/+59Great article! It's detailed, balanced, and clearly written. Have you ever wondered what it means when someone says things like, "This is the year of the Linux desktop" or "Linux isn't ready for the desktop?" This article does a great job of stating the issues and giving one man's well-thought-out opinions on each of them. DUGG!
- doherty, on 10/12/2007, -5/+51@dmoney06
I couldn't agree more. I was totally baffled by the straightforward, uncluttered, and downright readable layout of that article. Without a bunch of Flash banners and popup ads, I didn't even know what I was looking at!
I hate when the Internet is just a bunch of boring information with now sweet ads for free ringtones to click on and blinking surveys about whether I think Bush is good or bad President... - mrchucklepants, on 10/12/2007, -4/+32I think this is one of the most unbiased Linux/Windows articles I have seen on Digg. As for what impedes people from switching, at least in his Windows power user category, he is right on. It is exactly what I went through before I switched.
- bonked, on 10/12/2007, -7/+32Linux is more ready for Grandpa types than Windows - most of the "Grandpa" types as you call it never install anything on their computer - they have their office app, their e-mail app, and their internet browser - that's it.
Ubunutu and Automatix can have them a PC ready with everything in less than an hour. - tropican8, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22Wow that bit about how GUIs can be counterintuitive reminded me of when I saw someone remove my firewire drive from their mac for the first time. I screamed "Are you formatting it, what are you doing!" because I saw my icon cruise over to the trash.
- wallclimber, on 10/12/2007, -3/+21 Sefirosu wrote: "The thing is, Linux still isn't ready for "grandma" type use and I don't think it will be for a while...Don't get me wrong, I love Linux..."
============================================
Get with the times, Sonny, grandmas not only CAN install and use Linux, they are now teaching other grandmas how to use it. Times are changing. Life moves on, we may be slow, but we learn new things just fine.
Another interesting thing about grannies is that they can learn to spot nonsense (or what I like to call; cookie-cutter-FUD). There are standard phrases that give it away. The main one is: "Don't get me wrong, I love Linux..." And then there is "But", and that's when the cookie-cutter statements start. Like, "Linux is too hard for granny".
Hmmmph!
Most older users who wish to move away from Windows don't hate Microsoft so much as they love their freedom more. Older people are like that, they tend to be fond of owning things they've purchased with their hard earned money, and don't appreciate having to prove they are not "pirates" every time they turn around. They don't like being tracked, and like the author of the article says, once they understand what's going on with spyware and security flaws in Windows, they will ask if there are alternatives and will soon wish to widen their horizons.
I know this because I am a grandmother, and I hang out with grandparents a lot. Don't discount us as stupid and lazy because we aren't. We have just been too trusting up till now. That is changing. Swiftly. And I'm doing all I can to help. :o) (Nice article, by the way. Gave it a Digg) - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Good point! On another related note, what was holding you back from reading the article so that you didn't just post trash?
- October, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Excellent article, definately the best of it's kind I've seen at digg. Kudos!
I discovered, after reading this, that I am hybrid... I started out as a Window's Power User but have been using linux for so long that I am now a Linux Power User. I know more about how a linux system operates and how to keep it working that way than I do about Windows boxes anymore! I *have* told friends and family, on certain occassions, when doing the kind of IT work for such people that know you are a "computer guy", that I really wasn't sure how to solve problem "X" in Windows because I primarily use Linux (.. on the Desktop!) I joined the Vista beta crew just to find an excuse to polish up my troubleshooting skills in something OTHER than linux.
Wow, how times change.
Heres looking forward more to KDE4 on top of some flavor of Debian than Windows Vista or the new Mac OS ;) - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16"Am I the only person on the global interweb that has used OS X, OS 9, Ubuntu, Mandrake, BEos, and Windows; and chose Windows as their favorite?"
No. Bill Gates is still alive and kicking. - doolittle, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16I agree it's a true-to-life story that is not unlike my own. I have seen many an architecture come and go and to this day I still can't understand the younger folks "windows only" mentality which seems to be focused on point-and-click. How does that saying go - "easy pour, easy spill" I say.
- groceryheist, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The trick is to build computers, install linux and then sell them on ebay as
counter-strike servers ? bargain pcs. - trogdoor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13"Why we want to used linux? Not anything free in the world
Why My topic no more people digg
www.redtor.com/worldnews
all update news in Thailand"
Are you using babelfish to translate your posts? - davidp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"I am 18 years old and have been literally using Windows since birth (My fathers computer had Windows 1.0 in 1987). I have tried the alternatives, they don't do anything for me."
Of course people who use windows CHOOSE to use it. I think the author's point is that most people who choose windows, choose it because it was the most convenient thing for them. People today pay a lot for choosing convenience. Some even give up their FREEDOM TO CHOOSE to have convenience, which is sometimes referred to as Short Term Benefit, or instant gratification. Eventually, someone has to pay for all that convenience and it's usually at that point that one realized that one didn't really did choose at all... - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10"What part of "Free and Open Source Software" do we not understand here? It belongs to everybody."
Obviously you didn't read it. At least not very well. He gets it, it's about free and open source. Linux is a land of gumdrops and candy canes and all that crap. Fine. But this is simply a hypothetical argument for why Linux isn't more popular, nothing more nothing less. It has a brief argument about what would help Linux grow and it doesn't have a god damned thing to do with written code. It has to do with supporting companies that sell Linux preinstalled. - CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Ive seen like 2 of your posts, and they're really annoying.
- aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Was it Mac OS 9? In OS X, the trash turns into a gigantic eject symbol as soon as you start dragging any disk.
- fatas, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9This is not fair I could have sold so much hardware to people complaining their computer was slowing down. How could I make money by switching them to Linux?
- Bonzodog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Great Article from our old friend Aysiu.
For those of you that don't know, he is an asian-american ex-schoolteacher, who used to teach english at high school level.
He is in his mid-30's and is possibly one of the most respected users in the Ubuntu community, with the highest number of postings of anyone in the forums.
He has only started on lInux recently, and his knowledge of it is minimal compared to someone like me, who finds windows a convoluted old OS, that desperately needs to catch up with Linux.
I agree with him about why linux will never have 'a year of the desktop'.
It just will not, but it usage and growth on the desktop will increase steadily over time.
Remember, Linux was developed by people on the internet, for the internet.
It is an OS of the Internet age, unlike Windows, which approached development from the business user end.
Microsoft had a dedicated full time team of Paid developers to write it's OS, where as Linux solely relied on the Internet and people having the time to spare to lend a hand with coding. It was, for many years, and still largely is a Hobby OS developed by geeks for something to do.
However larger companies with money to spare are changing this landscape. Novell (Suse), Redhat(RHEL, Fedora), and Canonical(Ubuntu) are proof of what you can do when you pay people to develop linux full time. The Linux desktops have come on in leaps and bounds since they got involved.
The final keys to this are persuading Hardware Manufacturers to write more drivers, or open up their API's, and, persuading large number OEM PC manufacturers to give a choice of OS with ALL their PC's shipped.
Imagine if Dell decided to make it standard that everytime you went to buy one of their PC's you were asked what OS you want.
Do you want Microsoft windows for $50 dollars extra, or Ubuntu for nothing extra?
I think the Linux take up would increase drastically.
Most people are comfortable to use whatever comes pre-installed on their PC's, and because for the last 10 or so years, this has been Microsoft Windows, they got to corner the market in generic PC's, and when one company Corners any market, trying to take share off them is an uphill gargantuan struggle.
All the Hardware manufacturers, and games developers have been doing is catering to this cornered market. They will sell to the bit that makes them money.
However the world of a Real live linux desktop is up and coming, and will slowly but surely gain significant share. Linux will never dominate the market, it will merely get a more equal share of the it. A good target is around the 30% mark.
Along with this, Apple are also gaining market share, and if they get 30%, that leaves Microsoft with close to 35%, the other 5% being taken up with other OS's, like BSD, BeOS etc. That is a balanced and fair OS market which is all anyone really wants. - shade73, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Actually when you say Linux is not ready for the grandma's / grandpa's of the world I can prove you totally wrong. I set up a linux box for my grandparents on an old IBM and it has been running stable for 4+ years. Not only that, but never once have they said "Why does this popup keep coming up?" like before when they were running windows. They use email and the web, and that's all. That's all they want it for and that's all they need it for.
- bigtomrodney, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I would assume you were joking but I don't even see any humour in there. I doubt home users have Corporate XP legally, The open source programs for windows are largely ports of Linux/BSD/mac apps. XP support is less documented and more confusing. It is usually professionally offered - which is fine - but Linux has the community factor and shared knowledge.
XP Support? Let's just hope it has everything patched by the time they stop supporting it. And they will stop activating it which will prevent those necessary yearly re-installs.
*Any* OS is more customisable than XP. Linux/BSD are the most customisable OSes ever, not to mention they are free to be rewritten.
XP needs no maintenance? Are you ***** me? Unix needs no maintenance. XP needs none. Apart from defrag, virus scanning, yearly rebuilds, curbing registry growth, constant reboots....
I really hope I got the wrong end of a joke here. In my 4 years in corporate Desktop NT (That's NT,2000,XP,2003 for guys like you that just-don't-get-it) I have never seen such delusional ranting. And I live with MS fanboyism every day. - heavensblade23, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I doubt most of the people that Digg linux stories actually use it. Most of the people that read Slashdot are browsing on a Windows box, which I find pretty telling.
- 47f0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well, hosiah-head, as a modest open-source contributor, I think I can address some of your issues. (well, not the ones that require therapy, but some of what you posted)
The reason articles like this are valid and useful is because they do reach open-source developers who give a damn. You clearly don't, and that's fine. Some of us do, though, and hearing a little valid criticism doesn't hurt.
It's easy to get wrapped up in a project and forget some larger goals - like greater acceptance. And why is greater acceptance a good thing for Linux? Well, you're clearly happy with the status-quo, BUT here are a few things greater acceptance means.
It means more grandmas with Linux whose grandkids will grow up with the notion of being able to truly own their software - and have the ability to modify it. It means more hardware vendors will respect the O/S as a force not to be ignored - instead of marginally supported, or left out in the cold altogether. It means better protection for the Internet as an entity and for its users.
Your myopia is clearly explained by your gluteal-cranial proximity, but just because everything smells like ass from that perspective doesn't mean you have to behave like one.
And trust me - there's more than one person digging you down. - kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13Thanks for the life story.
- RobotDog, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11At first i was just thingking, Ehh some guy had some experiances. But as i read i actualy cared about his experiance.. This is written prity well I actualy kept with it instead of skiming like usual.. A lot of the stuff he notes i went threw my self exept i started with linux way befor fedora core was even considerd and redhat was still on 5.1 (still have my first redhat box) It was required for my votech linux + training.
(wow i am not as good at telling storys) - Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9This was a great, if long, article.
I consider myself quite lucky. My first experience with Linux was back in the days of DOS/Windows 3.1. Linux was a lot better for me than what Microsoft was offering at the time, I took to it right away.
Linux had command line completion, history, virtual consoles, backgrounding tasks, X, etc. It was also 32-bit so it didn't have the stupid memory limitations of DOS. By comparison, DOS looked like a turd.
So, while everybody else is saying "Linux isn't ready for the desktop", I'm thinking, it's nice to see Microsoft catching up.
My experience may have been different if I would have grown up with Windows 95 and later. - jabberwocky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@hackwrench
Linux use more than one partition could also be hd) basically to keep files separated so you could reinstall or more likely update your system and not affect your own settings or files.. More likely it just makes sense I never got round the fact that that windows drive letters are not fixed, like my cd drive might not always be D:
I normally have boot, swap, root and home. You need two minimum swap and root. Most distributions now set them up automatically for you so you don't even need to think about it. - GrayOne, on 10/12/2007, -10/+15Why do these articles never mention that some people use Windows because they just like to use Windows? Am I the only person on the global interweb that has used OS X, OS 9, Ubuntu, Mandrake, BEos, and Windows; and chose Windows as their favorite?
It has the most software. It has the most hardware (drivers). I know it like the back of my hand. It is secure (enough).
I am 18 years old and have been literally using Windows since birth (My fathers computer had Windows 1.0 in 1987). I have tried the alternatives, they don't do anything for me.
Stop trying to missionize to me like you are in some sort of weirdo cult. - SimonGray, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Good ol' aysiu and his great essays; take a look at the rest as well.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8ubuntu right now has far better hardware support than windows does OOB. You install Ubuntu, usually everything works, a few things might not.
If I installed windows XP on this current laptop, right now, I'd have no high res display, An outdated chipset, agp driver, no wi-fi, no ethernet, and no sound. every reinstall of this laptop requires I hunt and peck for each of those devices.
Then again this will change with Vista. hopefully vista's dynamic ability to update drivers will help... - Days, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Very good article.
I do have to add my .02 however. A few years ago, Linux was not a viable option, albiet I gave it a chance more than twice. The reason was not drivers, or features, or support.. it was the library of Windows platform software that I had purchased. Today, more and more of those essential programs that I used before are becoming obsolete, or Linux user have written applications to replace them. Now, Linux is again becoming more and more enticing, however there are still two barriers I must overcome.
1. Familiarity with Windows brand names. Photoshop. Visual Studio. Sourcesafe. All very recognisable. Gimp, KDevelop, CVS... among a multitude of other options, although viable alternatives, none function even remotely close to what I have grown accustomed to.
2. Acronyms. Seriously. I know, its a petty complaint, but I haven't had to deal with this many acronyms since I left the Army. Perhaps its something I can grow to accept, but when I am looking for something specific in windows, I can usually describe what it is I am looking for, and there is a very obvious solution. With Linux, I can look for the same thing, and wind up with 100 different acronyms to solve the problem.
I reall, really want to get away from the evil empire. I want to break free. But I am simply too comfortable with the way I am doing things now. Currently (and it may change with Vista) I am happy being oppressed. Sad, I know. - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7This isn't about programming or programmers you incredible jackass. It's about how to make it more widely available to the general public. Get a grip, and once again read the article
- Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Huh? I have a copy of Xubuntu running quite well on an old AMD K6 300 mhz computer with 96mb ram. Not only that, but with fluxbox (a window manager) that old computer TORE ASS, i was really amazed, fluxbox is not to my taste, so i'm sticking with the Xfce window manager, and all of it is reasonably fast and usable, and at least to me, its proof of concept that the supposedly bloated linux CAN run on old hardware, (could be used to recycle old long past their prime computers for perhaps educational use, schools always need more computers)
- arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Technopundit, have you ever even used linux? It's just as stable as OS X or Windows.
- Lobster, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Excellent.
Tell the Truth. Don't just be a Linux fan-boy.
I started this a couple of years ago, it includes my transition story and is also hope fully quite aware of the real situation . . .
http://peace.wikia.com/wiki/HolyGeek_Linux_Report
However I am also a fan boy. Here is my latest online fannery (if there is such a word)
http://tmxxine.com/p3/
I have Windows on my hard disk but I rarely use it. It is a malware magnet.
Until Chinese Officials stop accepting MS bribes to keep Linux out of embedded PC's (or maybe they are working on it as we speak) we will not have generic motherboards with a generic built in operating system. We would need a small distro like Sugar or Puppy of course.
Intel inside? Yes? Like who care?
OS included? Yes please.
Then we can move on.
Who cares what OS is on our phone or PC? Is it generic enough to use? Does it get the job done?
Ubuntu Included? Windows Inside? MacDonald's OS?
Who cares? Just make sure it works and Granma can use it without frying her remaining neurons . . .
- 47f0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"The thing is, Linux still isn't ready for "grandma" type use and I don't think it will be for a while."
My experience is a little different. My Mother and Mother-in-law are both clueless computer users who just want to do a few things. Both of them had problems directly related to some of my neices and nephews visiting and crudding up their systems. Which I got to fix, every time.
I put PCLinuxOS on both systems, made a guest login for the grandkids, did a little locking down - and I've had peace and quiet for months now. Some "grandmas" as you put it have a high degree of appreciation for appliances that just work, day in and day out. So there are at least two "grandmas" out there who don't have clue one about whether Linux is ready for the desktop - and don't care - it just works for them.
As soon as Michael Dell starts selling PC's pre-loaded to grandmas - it will be ready for the desktop - in my case, the only thing between grandma and Linux was the install. - hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7One question that keeps tugging at me is "Why does Linux want more than one partition?" i.e. a boot partition and a swap partition, and it seems that loopback systems have one file that acts as a partition for booting and one file that acts like one or more partitions for actual operation. What's the point? And there are going to be a lot of those sorts of questions once I switch. Resources to expand on such subjects focus more on the way things are and not why they are that way. Then there's the matter of finding answers in the order that I arrive at a question, and not in the order some other person thought was best.
Such potential for new frustrations put off my migration to Linux, and I doubt I'm alone. - redx666, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I have a short attention span, but I forced myself to read the whole thing, and boy was I glad I did. The article was definitely refreshing and informative compared to what I usually read on the subject of linux. Theres too many zealot linux type articles out there, that turn people away from linux. This article hit the spot, it was easy to understand, shed some light on important issues, and gave some solutions to the problem. Great article!
- arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6It's really cute how you complain about everyone else drinking the juice, so to speak, but then you are doing the same thing. You aren't addressing anything that this gentleman says. He says that in order to get Linux supported on more big-name companies, we need to first support smaller companies that preinstall Linux to show there is a market.
Your response: Linux is alive and the people create it. If you want it to be better you should code it yourself.
It just seems like there is a gap between his argument and your response. Like, for instance, that you clearly didn't read the article the whole way and rather than being a man an admitting it you're going to pretend that you're just way smarter than us. So smart, that, apparently, you don't even have to read the whole article. You can just guess his conclusion and you're right. - SimonGray, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes.
- arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6It's not idiocy to consider why more people don't use a venerable and generally well respected OS. It's all academic, but he has pretty much nailed the specific issue, lack of preinstalled systems or systems with a dual boot option set up.
It's great that you're minding you're own business. Others would like to see actual choice on the OS landscape. - 47f0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"The truth is..why do we have to rub it in whenever something is "linux" powered? Who ***** cares..."
Yet you have nothing to say about the 43 stickers you have to peel off of most Wintel hardware you buy. "Powered by zVidia" "Gintel Inside" "Windows CE/Me/NT aprroved" ...blah, blah, blah. But strangely, that's not "rubbing it in"?
Blind spot? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I'm a windows admin, and my next machine will be linux at home. I no longer play games on the PC, which really was the last reason I kept it on. I'm tired of maintaining a pay scale to Microsoft every upgrade, and I'm happy to tinker with linux and keep tinkering, as long as I can connect back via vpn/rdp to work and get my work done.
If I had my say at work, we'd migrate to ubuntu and use all open source, but all of our tools and training for 10 years now are on windows, and the philosophy doesn't pass muster when you bring on a new employee and have to retrain them every single time how to work. 90% of our software could easily work in an OSS environment. God we'd save a lot of money. we could hire a full time developer, have him document his code, rewrite some of our DB's and processes, and we'd easily still be paying half what we pay now for license agreements to various windows programs and upgrades. If he quit we would just hire some cheaper developer to take his place. In my dreams: I know.
If I ever started my own company, and was starting from scratch, it most assuredly would be without windows. It's really the only time you have to break free of the mold.
I don't dislike windows, I just grumble everytime we have to pay the TAX. (oh and it's faults make me money, so I can't hate that...) - Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What's wrong with X? It allows for network transparent windowing (a big plus for administration, though realistically all you would use for administration might be ssh) It allows compositioning (of course, thats on a per xserver basis) and frankly, other than the people writing window managers, YOU DON'T TOUCH X. You either use gtk, Qt, fltk, or whatever, you never touch X. Obviously there ARE reasons to touch X, but they're few and far between.
- arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"He says much more than that, Tweety Pie. I think you need to actually go and read the article, instead of gleaning from what some other Digger said about it."
What the holy hell are you talking about!? You have yet to look at his conclusion. I have read this in full, and his point is that Linux must be preinstalled on systems in order to advance any further than it has already. That although new capabilities for distros is nice, it isn't the way to change the world. I think that, yet again, you need to read the article in full. You've clearly determined his entire point from the title of the Digg and the first half-page. - digitaldivider, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4if mac OSX were a knife, it would be shiny. Really really shiny. and aerodynamic. It's a good carving knife but it can't be used for anything else-- fighting or cutting because no one supports apple knives.
if windows were a knife, it has the appearance of being safety oriented what with a hilt guard and all, and it also has a nice serrated edge. it can be used to carve, throw and fight, but requires constant maintenance and modifications in order to continue to be used in the way(s) you want it to. No matter how well you take care of it, it inevitably gets rusted/dull and the hilt guard falls off as though you threw the knife in water and left it out in the elements for a while, causing you to either a) reforge the knife or b) buy a new knife.
If Linux were a knife, it wouldn't be a knife at all-- at first. It would start out as a block of steel. You would be the smith and craft it lovingly to perform whatever task you want it to do-- carve, fight, cut, throw whatever. you could make it a multibladed knife if you wanted to. Your knife would be better designed than the windows knife as it would have a nice stainless finish to it so that rusting would be brought down to a minimum. However for whatever reason your knife would be even less supported than the apple knife, but you wouldn't care, you'd show your knife to the other guys with Linux knives. - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3amvakar, ever tried using the *same* package selection on the linux system that you claim to run on netbsd?
Its one thing to say Gnome needs more resources than fluxbox, but its another thing to say FC5 with Gnome is slower than NetBSD with vtwm so Linux is slower! - reda, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"One question that keeps tugging at me is "Why does Linux want more than one partition?" i.e. a boot partition and a swap partition"
It doesn't, I use a file on my windows partition as swap space (for my linux system of course). - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5The article is, yet again, about how to get linux preinstalled on a larger scale. Please, please I am begging you if you're going to argue with me at least be on topic.
- muxon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5The whole OS debate is kinda crap, since after the initial install period, most all people care about is the interface and the applications. The "cruising" period is where the real tests are.
I like windows lately because most of the time, I don't even know I'm using windows. I just see my applications. I have tried every big hyped linux distro, and I've considered macs many times, but really I know they will never satisfy me. Beacuse I'm not looking for a slick package manager, or a powerfull command line, or a solid unix core. That's cool and good and all, but MOST of the time, I just want to open an application and do something with it. And it doesn't matter in the slightest what OS I'm using, except that the applications I'm familiar with (and that do everything I want) are all installed right now on my windows computer. If I switch, I have to find them all, or their equivalents again.
Yeah, viruses, spyware, whatever. Windows really is good enough nowadays, if you're not a total careless idiot. - arthurbarnhouse, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Oh for god sake, that trick doesn't even work.
I'm sorry you can't accept that you're wrong in such an obvious, painful way. There's an easy way to solve this. Read the article completely and then actually enter into a dialog with me. -
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