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235 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -67/+176Too bad they don't get so many of the basics, like painless driver installation right.
Don't spout crap about how Windows makes it easier because they bundle so many drivers.
In Windows, if a device isn't recongnized, I know I need to go to the manufacturer's website, download the driver binary, and double-click it. In Linux, I have to compile ten different things before my video card works. - aahpandasrun, on 10/12/2007, -13/+102It's true though... Most people like being able to plug something in and have it work without having to manually install drivers.
- TomFrost, on 10/12/2007, -9/+53"Then why isn't Linux the dominant OS in the market?"
Come now. You already know the answer to that question. The first personal computers easily available were macs and ibm-based windows machines. Microsoft won, so Windows became more popular. Schools adopted it. Workplaces adopted it. Microsoft became a multi-billion dollar company and moved to computer makers to bundle only Windows with desktop computers. The biggest reason all this could happen was cash inflow.
So you're asking why Linux isn't on top of the market? IT'S FREE. NO CASH INFLOW. The only money made off of it are the commercial server packages sold by RedHat/Novell/etc. How can something free, with no funding, take over the market?
And that leads to so many things. Advertisement, for instance. Who of the linux users here have ever NOT mentioned Linux to a layman and gotten the response "Linux... don't you need to know code for that or something?" The general public is completely uninformed of what Linux is because no one's paying to advertise desktop Linux* -- because there isn't money to pay for the advertisements, because Linux is FREE.
(* Yes, I know there was an Ubuntu billboard put up at some point. That wasn't because Ubuntu is making massive amounts of money [ITS FREE], it's because someone made a sacrifice to spread the word.) - jsleno, on 10/12/2007, -30/+72"In Windows, if a device isn't recognized, I know I need to go to the manufacturer's website, download the driver binary, and double-click it. In Linux, I have to compile ten different things before my video card works."
In Linux, you have to "compile ten different things", as you say, because the available driver is not GPL or FOSS. For some, this is a limitation. For knowledgeable Linux users, this is a purposeful omission. You should not have to worry about SOFTWARE RIGHTS when you upgrade or add HARDWARE to your system. - D3koy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+45Free?
- darkchild, on 10/12/2007, -8/+44[quote]Too bad they don't get so many of the basics, like painless driver installation right.
Don't spout crap about how Windows makes it easier because they bundle so many drivers.
In Windows, if a device isn't recongnized, I know I need to go to the manufacturer's website, download the driver binary, and double-click it. In Linux, I have to compile ten different things before my video card works.[/quote]
Windows doesn't come with as many drivers as Linux. If you take a look at the Linux kernel source code, you will find drivers for everything but the kitchen sink. If drivers are not included for your hardware, then it could be because of several reasons e.g. no hardware specs available, the kernel devs are working on it, etc. On most distros you do not have to compile anything in order to install video drivers e.g. Nvidia drivers are available in most distributions software repositories. For distributions such as Fedora Core that refuse to ship non free software, third party packagers make these available and they can be installed with the likes of apt. If your distribution uses rpms or debs, sometimes its a matter of clicking on a driver package to install it. - brianboyko, on 10/12/2007, -5/+29Re: Driver Installation.
I'm reviewing Ubuntu Linux for AMD64 for a freelance article I'm writing. There are various problems with the software, but here's the surprising thing. I've yet to throw a device at this thing that doesn't just work out of the box. iPods, scanners, Wacom Tablets, USB drives, External Hard Drives, Firewire Drives, Keyboards, Mice, Soundcards, video cards...
In short, that seems to be a problem of yesterday's distributions. - alloneword, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25I'm sorry you feel that way, but I always have more issues installing hardware on Windows. After a fresh install of Windows I will have about 5 CDs to go through to install drivers. I will reboot a dozen times, and I will beat my head against the monitor when it tells me I need a 6th CD for sound, and it wont recoginse my monitor, then there is more frustration when a scanner driver conflicts with a TV Tuner card, then I will reboot again.
After a fresh install of Linux, only clicking next all the way through (or just booting a live CD) I am done.
Thats it, no looking for driver CDs, no screaming when a scanner says it can't install the driver because it is having a bad day.
(3D video, I install the nvidia binary by using ./NVIDIA-xxxxx and then I am done, nothing else needs to be installed)
Windows users who haven't tried a modern linux or have never booted Knoppix will bury this comment because they don't want to believe Linux is good with hardware.
Linux users who know that modern linux's are very good with hardware detection will hopefully digg it up. - D3koy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25Sony's Rootkit, need I say more?
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24Powershell eliminates their #1. It is as powerful, if not more powerful, than your standard bash prompt. You actually pass around strongly typed objects, you're not piping along text and being forced to parse it at every step of the way....Exception handling, the .NET framework....and all that good stuff.
It certainly doesn't have the maturity that the linux terminal does....but it shows much promise. - zeptobyte, on 10/12/2007, -5/+22Well then thank god my kitchen sink is plug and play, or I'd be screwed, wouldn't I?
- Cyphase, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20"Could someone explain what this guy meant by "Free?" and why he got dugg so much? (I'm probably an idiot but thats okay)" - ndonohue
He means one thing that Linux gets right that Windows doesn't is the price: free. - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Free as in Freedom.
- Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17"Too bad they don't get so many of the basics, like painless driver installation right."
How is that a Linux Distro's fault? If they don't provide binaries in their respective repositories, then yeah I guess you may have a point. But if these binaries (or even source files) don't exist, then how is Linux at fault? It's the companies that produce the hardware that need to supply linux with drivers, not the Linux developers. You're lucky there even are open source drivers that are created through tedious reverse engineering :/
Please, don't be ignorant. - jsleno, on 10/12/2007, -9/+232. All-in-one application sources.
Like download.com?
Download.com is not an application source. It's just a website where you can download applications which may, or may not be free.
Using apt, you can find, download, and install Linux software in one step. No double-clicking the EXE, no accepting any EULA, no 30 day trial period before you purchase the full version. You are free to use any Linux/GPL/FOSS software. All you have to do it want it. - Fatalis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Valuing your time and reading digg threads about Linux is a contradiction in itself.
- strabes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Everyone that is using "bittorrent" or "download.com" to refute the second point obviously has never used linux or has never experienced using apt before. They're not the same thing at all. Here are the steps involved with installing programX on windows and linux, respectively. On download.com you have to search for programX, find it, go through multiple screens filled with ads in order to get to the place where you can actually download the .exe, then finally download the .exe, browse to it in windows explorer, run the .exe, go through all the steps in the wizard, and then finally it will install, along with extra useless shortcuts on your desktop & quick launch bar that you have to delete. Oftentimes you have to restart your computer too. If you want to update it, you have to do the entire process again. Using apt, you type sudo apt-get install programX. That's it. It doesn't come with bundled software and doesn't do anything that you don't tell it to. If you want to update the program, you type sudo apt-get update, then sudo apt-get upgrade. This will upgrade all programs installed on your computer too, not just one.
IMO linux has clearly won on point 2. Windows simply has nothing like apt.
Windows update only updates windows. No programs or anything.
The multi desktops in windows are hacks. They aren't native. Meaning you have to go through all the steps listed above plus restarting your computer in order to get multiple desktops in windows. - zeldafan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Screw that, I run a computer without any anti virus software at all.
I use Firefox and I don't ever click a .exe without knowing what it is. I don't even remember the last time I saw a virus. - ClayDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15There are 2 clipboards in X Windows: the "select" (mark to copy, click the middle mouse button to paste) and the "copy" (MS-style Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V) clipboard. The copy clipboard often discards its contents if you close the application you copied from; to solve that, use an app like Klipper or Glipper. Where are your problems with these mechanisms?
- JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14@diggamer
That's closed source drivers for you. You should be pissed off at your manufacturer and be loud about it. - devindotcom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11You lost me at M$
- ClayDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Comparing notepad.exe to vim or emacs? *lol* I never even used notepad.exe during my Windows time. And using a semi-full word processor like wordpad.exe for writing .txt or HTML files just makes me laugh.
- Dimah, on 10/12/2007, -12/+21Respect. Yeah.
"HAVE YOU REGISTERED WINDOWS YET!??? HUH!?!?? HUH!??!?!"
"THIS IS NOT A REAL COPY OF WINDOWS!!!"
"YOU MUST CHECK AGAIN THAT YOUR COPY OF WINDOWS IS REAL, EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE CHECKED SEVERAL TIMES BEFORE" - grumpyrain, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11"You can get spyware on a windows PC without even connecting to the internet."
You may want to elaborate on that one ... - CraigRat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11@zeldafan
>Screw that, I run a computer without any anti virus software at all.
>I use Firefox and I don't ever click a .exe without knowing what it is. I don't even remember the last time I saw a virus.
Could the reason be that you haven't seen a virus is DUE to the lack of a virus scanner (how do you detect one otherwise?)
:-) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12"Even the registration process is intrusive. Linux has no registration process, no "Linux Genuine Advantage", etc. You install the software, then you use it. Simple."
Linux is also free software. Windows is not. Therefore a comparison on this issue can't really be made. - adragons, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Its not a case of being simple. Microsoft has the right to make sure you're paying for the software they made. It just happens that WGA is one of the worst software pieces they ever made.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10How about just being able to kill a process immediately? That dramatically improves linux usability.
- statmobile, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ Chasuk
> Fair enough, although anyone who has used Putty knows that it is a good terminal, albeit minus tabs.
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Putty is an ssh client that you use to log in to the shell of a seperate operating system. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post for this comment alone, because you're only pointing out that Windows is good for logging in to another O/S? That's not even logical! - greggish, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"3. Cut-and-paste, and focus handling. Middle-click cut-and-paste is even more useful than middle-clicking a URL to a new tab"
--I've been using Linux for 4 months and didn't even know about this. Thanks. - Jacob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10the only hardware i havn't had just work for me on linux has been a usb tv tuner from dell that has no linux drivers at all... Other than that it's been easier for everything stuff I would need to install and tinker with just works in linux. Using ubuntu, though I have used different distros with only minimal problems and only concerning a dlink wireless card.
- jban4US, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I use vim and multiple desktops (powertoy) in windows all the time...
- lolwtfhaha, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Nobody seems to be understanding the loveliness of most linux distro's package management, and they claim windows has the same thing (windows update, download.com?). Sorry, wrong, Window's doesn't come close to Debian in this arena.
Almost every 3rd party application you install on Windows (and os x) will want to run it's own update daemon, or check for updates automatically periodically. There doesn't seem to be any unified method of checking for updates for ALL your software. Quite often you are forced to upgrade to the next major release of the software in order to obtain security updates.
Contrast this with Debian's commitment to *maintain* every one of it's 15,000+ software packages for literally years at a time. I say "maintain" because that is a big difference from simply providing the newest versions of everything. Maybe your system is working fine and you don't *want* firefox 2.0: Debian will fix the problem and backport it to the "stable" FireFox 1.5.x or whatever. Then again, maybe you like the newest stuff, so you can use the "unstable" distribution if you choose. You can even mix and match, run "stable" for most software package but install a few unstable packages. This can get hairy, so there is even a website (www.backports.org) that make this process cleaner and better. I digress...
If you want a holistically stable, "mature" yet functional Operating System, choose Debian Stable. If you want a constantly morphing OS that is a pain to maintain, but has all the bells and whistles, use Microsoft Windows, Debian Unstable, or Mac OSX. - betacmag4u, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13 @ janbus4us "
oh, and most communities I've been on, if you are a noob and ask a question, they'll tear you a new one and act all "1337" on you."
This has not been my experience at all for either Linux or Windows questions. You must be going to some mean sites because everyone is almost universally helpful just like in the real world. Perhaps your world view is of sickness, hate division and anger. Have you considered meditation or Tai Chi? - d722002, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@neko
I think Grandma would most likely be opposed to using stolen software, would she not? - FuzzyCat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6
"You mean, everything but Broadcom bluetooth/wireless drivers for my laptop and working ATi 3D acceleration."
Well, if you're using Ubuntu there are lots and lots of examples of how to do it. For Suse 10.2 on my laptop all I needed to do was get the firmware files (.fw) and put them in /lib/firmware/ - the whole thing took less than 2 minutes... aside from that if you do a little reading you'll find:
"Like TI (see section 4.1), Broadcom quickly gained a reputation as being very unfriendly to Linux. It was known that Broadcom internally had a fully functional Linux driver, but it was unwilling to release it in any form (even binary), and was not answering call for chipset specifications. However, soon people realised that the Linksys WRT54G, a router/access point with a Broadcom chipset, was based on Linux. Linksys was made aware that, because Linux is GPL, they had to release the full source code of the WRT54G firmware, which they promptly did. This source code contained a binary Linux driver for the Broadcom chipset."
ref: http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Jean_Tourrilhes/Linux/Linux.Wireless.drivers.802.11ag.html
Which, I think, spells out who is really to blame for this sort of thing... I'm sure companies like Broadcom have their reasons, but unless it involves lots of free money from somewhere else, it doesn't really make good business sense. - cmdrNacho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+610 - wait for Vista... this OS is assuming you are a criminal. Good luck
- MihaiM, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6If you use Ubuntu if something is not working out of the box there is an amazing community that will help you make your hardware work.
For example for my Dell Inspiron I had to use 2 guides that I found on UbuntuForums.org to make the widescreen and WiFi work. And that's all. - TGMD, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13Well I love Linux but this list isn't exactly accurate:
1. The PowerShell M$ has made really does put Bash to shame, but they're designed for different purposes.
2. I love linux but to say it's easier to find and install programs for it is easier!? Come on! It took me a half hour to resolve all the dependencies just to install VLC player on my Suse system.
3. Now That's a really good feature and I love it! (you can get the same thing in Windows with TweakUI, or some other powertoy, I can't remember I installed it so long ago)
4. Depends on what you'd consider painless... Sure you and me can recompile a kernal and resolve dependencies But it's not exactly easy... windows update works a lot easier in this aspect.
5. Also a wonderful feature that any coder will love. (believe it or not but Windows NT has had this built in since NT 4.0, but M$ in it's infinite freaking wisdom decided it would confuse customers or something so they didn't make it available, you can download the powertoy though to activate the feature)
6. Now that I can't argue with (I'm a Vim Pro It's the best for PHP IMO, however... you can get most of these Apps for windows...)
7. True... Linux rarly requires reboot.. can't argue with that... That's why I use it as my file server...
8. All the open formats in protocols you find in Linux are in windows...
9. True... Once Linux is setup it's idiot proof... unlike windows... in fact I put Suse 10.1 on my Parents comp
10. Believe it or not there are some linux dists that require a form of activation... I know it's just wrong... - ndonohue, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Could someone explain what this guy meant by "Free?" and why he got dugg so much? (I'm probably an idiot but thats okay)
- DnasTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Multiple desktops on Windows are unbelievably slow and horribly incomplete. I've yet to see any implementation that comes even close to the functionality of the real thing. (If anyone knows of one, I'd be very grateful. It would make the occasional times I have to use Windows less of a hell.)
Bittorrent offers nothing compared to even the most basic package manager. You'd still have to search for things, etc. Bittorrent is practically just a faster download. They don't offer centralized search or anything. Plus no one downloads something like Vim or Gaim off of Bittorrent.
A package manager allows one to install apps without ever browsing the web, searching, or worrying about updates. You simply tell it to install "gaim" or "thunar" and off you go.
Don't have GTK? No problem, the package manager will get that for you (usually asking for a quick confirmation if there are extra dependancies to install).
Removed all XFCE apps? Why bother keeping unused XFCE libs on your system? A package manager can remove them.
Oh wait, what if I don't know what's that burning app's name. Fine, search for "burn cd" and you'll find a ton. Or just go the old-fashioned way with Google, which you'd always do.
No more running 50 applets to check for updates or watching updates yourself. The package manager does that for you.
No more worrying that app X provided a sucky installer or one that doesn't actually remove anything. The package manager knows what files were installed and removes them.
Windows Update only updates Windows and requires a reboot after nearly every update. Sure, that solves the problem, if you only run Windows. Most of us, however, actually install programs on our computers. You might want to try it sometime. It increases your productivity tremendously. Especially on Windows when the most advanced bundled app is something under even pico's caliber.
Windows ports: Have you ever used the Windows ports? I install just about every port of my Linux programs that I can get (again, to make Windows marginally less of a hell). They're simply not adequate compared to the real thing. Windows handles GTK+ poorly. The window manager is primitive and incapable of properly handling apps like The GIMP. Emacs and Vim just don't have the same level of integration as in Linux.
If you really want to use Linux apps to the fullest, you've got to go for the real thing. - neko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Damn straight! It amuses me no end to see all these programs that have to function on a Windows environment build in their own particular updating mechanism... each one pinging their servers and occasionally prompting the user with "No, you can't run me right now; I have to update first. Come back later. [OK] [Yes master]"
Windows Update only covers the OS components and Office, as far as I know. Every other bit of software on your Windows machine might not be up to date. Might have a critical security flaw. But you won't know, unless you spend all your days scanning the websites of those applications and drivers.
If only you had a friend who knew about all these updates, and could quickly tell you what the latest versions are of all your software! Oh wait, that's apt and synaptic.
But I think you missed the biggest selling point.
UNINSTALLING!
On Debian, you go to Synaptic, mark something for removal, and it gets REMOVED. Gone. Never to be seen again, unless you want it.
On Windows, you go to Add/Remove programs. First, you hope that there is an entry there to remove the software, created by the vendor. Then, you hope that it will actually succeed in removing the program properly, and not die because some file was out of place. Finally, you hope (but secretly know the truth) that it will also remove the crapware sponsor programs that it installed at the same time as itself.
If this fails, you do have System Restore. Honestly, I think it's a great idea, in theory. If it hadn't failed on me, telling me that system restore couldn't restore to this restore point (for undisclosed reasons), please choose another (and each time I attempt this, the number of available points dwindles)
Finally, if you're still unable to purge your machine of the undesired software, we have the staple of the Windows community. Reinstall! And then go on the web like a good little install-monkey and reinstall all your drivers and applications again. Good monkey! Have a banana. - george99, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I think that support for broadcom bcm43xx wireless chipset is included in later 2.6 kernels. However, you'll still need the firmware to go with it.
- jsleno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@adragons
Yes, they do have the right to make sure that you have paid for a legitimate copy of Windows. And even if they had the best software, and the best process for determining that, that still adds another level of complexity.
Linux systems are not just technically different from Windows, but philosophically different too. You don't need to pay for Linux. Therefore, you don't need to prove that you paid for it. And no one (or no software) has to go around checking to see who has, and who hasn't paid. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Fanboys abound. I don't *use* windows or linux... I use applications. If you can sell me on a Linux app over a Windows app, Ill make the switch. But, since the nice open source crowd keeps on writing Windows ports of most of their software, I see no reason to switch.
- shuffle2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5i think the main thing is really the fact that linux has programs called "package managers". Now, I know you can get software for windows through bittorrent, websites, other p2p programs, windows update, etc, etc., but that's exactly the point. package managers put all the software in one spot, and, surprisingly, _manage_ it. For instance, if package x needs to be updated to install package y, it will do that for you. magic.
- rgov, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5You get asked more than once. You have to validate for virtually every new install. I upgraded Windows Defender and got asked. Same with IE 7. Same with the Word 2007 beta. Microsoft can't really rely on past records (i.e. a registry entry that says "I validated on 9/14/06") because they're easily forged.
Although everyone agrees that we'd be best without WGA, if it only stored the successful validation online, I'd be more willing to go along with it. - strabes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4did you just say that windows is more stable than linux? Did you also just say that restarting frequently is a good thing? I don't know, but I like installing my updates and going on with my computing, not downloading the updates and sitting there for a few minutes while my computer reboots.
If you're a developer and want to distribute your software privately, go ahead. For the rest of us that don't like hunting around for packages, we'll continue to install applications with one command.
There's a reason why linux dominates the server market... - mikeoh, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Windows update maybe painless (even with all the reboots) but it doesn't compare with something like apt because it only updates Windows and not the rest of the applications. With apt every application is updated with one program.
- wankerface, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Linux is idiot-proof once set up?
As a proven idiot, allow me to contest this. I'm using Ubuntu, probably the most user-friendly free distribution out there, and all it takes is a crashed game to size my desktop down to 640x480 and remove the ability to switch to a higher res without going in and editing xorg.conf. This is the kind of problem that earlier Windows had going in and out of 3d games but has long since been fixed for most users using recent graphics card drivers, etc.
Just one example, but it shows that there are at least some problems in Linux that can be caused using simple GUI apps that shouldn't really be modifying any settings (and don't require su) doing so and causing one to have to go to the Terminal to fix. -
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