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146 Comments
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -9/+138For every pro-Linux article, 7of7 dies a little inside.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+94So.....basically what you're saying is if Dell gives consumers more choices other than Windows......that's a bad thing?
I was always under the impression that more options = more customers.
When I checked this page 15 minutes ago it was at 15,000 requests. Now it's at 17,500 and climbing. Clearly there is a demand for this kind of stuff. You can't deny that. - kuribo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+817of7 - "Any Linux user knows that a functional Linux desktop demands many hours at some forum trying to figure out how to install some random utility so that your wireless card won't show up as a toaster oven."
It wouldn't require all that extra setup if Dell pre-installed it, making sure that all the hardware worked with that distro. If anything, pre-installing it would make the average Linux distribution LESS of a hassle to get running, because it would have another major company behind it. - Virak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+52A functional Linux desktop takes as long to set up as Ubuntu takes to install.
And Linux doesn't have drivers for toaster ovens. I don't think you need to worry about your hardware accidentally showing up as one. - pseudojd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+43the MS money train to dell HQ would be replaced with train bombs if they had an option to install open office. I like the idea though.
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40But with something like a pre-installed Linux box......the hardest part (the install) is already done for you!
So.....trolls would have to come up with something new to bitch about. - cdmarcus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+37For me, getting Windows set up from scratch was WAY harder than getting Ubuntu set up from scratch. XP starts out with a text-based setup, and you have to answer questions at different times. With an Ubuntu install, and indeed most Linux installs, you can select all your options at the beginning and it will apply them during the installation. In addition, for me, XP didn't have ANY network drivers built in, even for ethernet. It also wouldn't run my monitor at full resolution, and wouldn't work with my sound card. Guess what... Ubuntu had all of that, plus tons of useful software.
- masgrada, on 10/12/2007, -10/+37My dad uses Ubantu and thinks his new mac is nice.
- mr1337, on 10/12/2007, -2/+27@Virak
It doesn't?
So that's probably why I'm getting an error when I try to mount /dev/toaster
Well it looks like it's back to Winblows for me for all of my toaster oven needs. - sanguinemoon, on 10/12/2007, -11/+36"Am I wrong? Any Linux user knows that a functional Linux desktop demands many hours at some forum trying to figure out how to install some random utility so that your wireless card won't show up as a toaster oven" Yes, you are wrong and are an anti-Linux troll.
- jonnyq, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26"But, and I hate to do this, and I'm sure I'm going to be slandered for this..."
By that, you're agreeing with a troll. even though your beliefs may be sincere, the troll's aren't so you're just feeding the troll.
"getting apache, mysql and php up, running and configured, piece of cake, out of the box, no nonsense"
yep, generally takes about three clicks with Ubuntu.
"but could I set up my printer"
What distro? I have NEVER had a problem with any random obscure printer I've tried to mess with at work using Kubuntu. (And yes, I meant Kubuntu... I think KDE makes that kind of stuff easier)
"ow about divX video playback with the colour normalised? DVD playback?"
you were probably using the wrong distro if you wanted that out of the box. But then again, I don't remember Windows XP having DivX codecs out of the box. And I certainly wouldn't want WMP playing my DVDs. Just install a real video player...
"Maybe a pre-installed Linux would solve some of these issues, but to be honest until hardware and utilities 'just work'"
When is the last time you tried to install Windows XP on a freshly formatted hard drive without your "Dell Resource CD" handy? On my latest machine, it was the onboard NIC that didn't work. That's right. The ***** onboard NIC. Couldn't even get on the web to download the drivers I needed to make XP work. These things "just work" because Dell installed everything for you and gave you a handy cd in case drivers go screwy.
On a personal note, it sounds like you were using the wrong distro. It sounds like you're a computer person that wants to play DVDs and install a web server - and tinker with things. In that case, I suggest a KDE-based distro like Kubuntu.
If Dell decided to install Freespire or Linspire on new machines and actually preconfigure it for some extra hardware, there would be a lot of great competition in the market. - mvent2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23"It wouldn't require all that extra setup if Dell pre-installed it, making sure that all the hardware worked with that distro. If anything, pre-installing it would make the average Linux distribution LESS of a hassle to get running, because it would have another major company behind it."
Exactly. I hate to admit it but I bought a computer from Dell once and everything just worked. But when I had to reinstall Windows it did not have drivers for my video card, sound card, network card or USB bus. Now this is the funny bit. I installed Kubuntu Linux as a dual-boot and needless to say it autodetected all of my hardware. I used the "lspci" function to get the exact name of the cards I have (all Intel, what a surprise.....). I then took those card names to a friend's computer where I managed to download Windows drivers for.
If it weren't for Linux, my machine would've been a mute 640x480 tard every time I reinstalled Windows. - shrewduser, on 10/12/2007, -0/+23remember what happened last time dell tried to get linux friendly:
http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/Internal_Microsoft_E_mail_Reveals_Anti_Linux_Strategies_on_Dell_Severs - MeltedUFO, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24If they showed Beryl on it people would flock around it.
- 1coreduo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+19Desktops / Servers - Yes
Laptops are a bit more difficult to build from parts, don't you think.
-> point is buying laptop without MS tax, I think. - MeltedUFO, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Yes.
- jsleno, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16My local Frys sells a PC with Linspire pre-installed for around $250. The machine specs are primitive, compared to the surrounding XP and Vista PCs. Pre-installing Linux on low-end hardware immediately gives the software a "cheap" impression.
What I'd like to see is Linux pre-installed on high-end, graphic-intensive, multi-processor machines that can really show what the software is capable of. Show that machine running Beryl, Gimp, and/or mythTV. I'm sure buyers would be impressed with that.
Linux is the OS on many of the fastest computers on earth. It can certainly run on a Multi-core processor. I hope someday to see that in stores. As far as OSes, "free" does not mean "cheap" or "shoddy" - fulldecent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15No. They would be happy because they are not paying the Microsoft tax.
- Waiting2awake, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17 Suing them? For what? responding to a market? I don't understand what MS could sue over. As long as they are still offering MS as the defacto standard..
- MeltedUFO, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Microsoft is pressuring them to only have Windows, which is why there *empty* computers come with FreeDOS.
They would probably charge them more per copy of Windows, kind of like what happened with Lenovo. - armbar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14I understand the value of time perfectly well, thanks. The time spent on Linux is mostly up front, customizing how you want it to work and adding components. The time spent on Windows is throughout its entire lifecycle, patching security holes.
Granted, that's an exaggerated viewpoint, but if you were really going to make the argument that it's about time vs. money, then you'll have to support that claim. In my experience (and in many others', I suspect), the amount of time that you need to set up and maintain a Linux server network is much less than a Windows-based one. Obviously, you need to know what you're doing first, and an inept admin will take longer doing a Linux setup, but that's not specific to the OS.
I know you're not going to agree with me, which is fine, but I moved out of my mom's basement at least 3 days ago, so you can't use that against me. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15"Am I wrong? Any Linux user knows that a functional Linux desktop demands many hours at some forum trying to figure out how to install some random utility>"
For the most part,. it depends on the distro and those listed on that page are very user-friendly.
Ive used Linux over a year and have not spent hours on forums trying to figure out how to install anything,ever.
I use Freespire, with CNR,which means I have as easy a time installing an app as you do.
Observe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpzCs1eyOSU - MeltedUFO, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Why would you want that?
- FartyMcPooPants, on 10/12/2007, -12/+23@7of7 I love Linux, I really do, all my websites are hosted on it, I use it to do all sorts of things, and completely legally to.
But, and I hate to do this, and I'm sure I'm going to be slandered for this, but I have to agree with you, complex things seemed to work out of the box, getting apache, mysql and php up, running and configured, piece of cake, out of the box, no nonsense, but could I set up my printer? How about divX video playback with the colour normalised? DVD playback? These are what I thought of as simple stuff.
I did get it all to work, and it's stable as any machine I've ever used, like I said I love it, but indeed it did take a good number of hours reading forums, help sites and other resources to resolve my problems. I would like to point out of course that the fact that there were so many help resources available is a feather in Linux's cap, but then there are windows forums too.
Maybe a pre-installed Linux would solve some of these issues, but to be honest until hardware and utilities 'just work' linux will only be really sought after by those that know their computers, or know people who know their computers. In fact the kind of people liable to be browsing voting sites, and actually voting on them, kind of like me really.
At the end of the day a computer is a computer, an OS is an OS, you pays your money and takes your choice, whatever makes you happy and productive is fine by me. - moman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I'm very dissapointed with digg. You should all know Linux runs on toasters by now:
http://pics.defcon.org/showphoto.php?photo=53&cat=512
http://media.linspire.com/ltoast/
http://www.riverdale.k12.or.us/linux/toaster/
:-) :-D :-p - armbar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12technopundit, it was Microsoft that funded that "research" that says it's cheaper. IIRC, they took a sample size of 6 sysadmins in one study--3 MS, 3 Unix--and extrapolated that the MS admins did better and it was cheaper because they only had to install 90 updates vs 130 updates.
- ajchavar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10they dont even need to offer MS as a standard, they can do whatever they want, dell isnt owned by MS and has no obligation to them. now if they offered OS X preinstalled they could get sued by apple, but thats a whole different story since OS X is only _supposed_ to run on mac hardware. . .
- diablozx9, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11ubuntu is easier than windows to load on any system.
- dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9 And with Linux you don't have to pay somebody some foolish license per CPU core.
- Waiting2awake, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11 I'd say this is pretty well the icing on the Cake. Many people who are past the newbie stage of computers knows there is more that they can do, that the machine they just spent 1000 dollars on can do more than check email and surf the web. It is only natural for them to look for other, more powerful OS's, to take advantage of the system.
It seems that with every passing week MS's grip on the computer market slips more and more....
Which as Martha Stewart reminds us all " Is a bloody ***** good thing" - Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@fartymcpoopants
Most of the stuff you're talking about is as simple as an Automatix install (dpkg -i ).
@techopundit
It has nothing to do with which is better or cheaper. It's what you know. I've used and developed on Linux since about 1994, so for me Linux is by far easier to use (not to mention more productive, prettier, more useful, yada, yada...). For me, Windows is a pain in the groin to use. It's slow and awkward. Linux is therefore cheaper (from you "time" standpoint).
Your argument is like saying cars with automatic transmissions are better than cars with manual transmissions. It's mostly about personal taste and in the end either kind of car will most likely get you where you're going, so stop whining about it. - andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Legal action? For what? Selling systems with GNU/Linux? Isn't that exactly like Lipton suing Safeway for selling Red Rose tea?
Your avatar suggests you are a Microsoft fanboy. I would suggest refining your world view to include things more productive than suggesting everything that seems to pose a threat to your favorite company be sued whether it is their right to do so or not. - smojo12, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well I'm sure they have some sort of contract with each other so that Dell gets discounts on MS products. Probably part of the contract is that Dell only offers windows
- srg13, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yeah, because I'd really call putting a CD in the drive and clicking about four times is hard.
Compared to a windows install, its a breeze. - andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Pre-installed openoffice? Because that 5 minute download is so painful?"
Pre-installed works? Because that 5 minute install from a bundled CD is so painful?
"After all, if you're not willing to save hundreds of dollars by building your own computer, are you likely to be willing to spend just as much time digging through forums and inputing line after line of code into a console just to get your rear left speaker working?"
When did you last try GNU/Linux? Must have been about 6 years ago. These types of problems are vanishingly small nowadays. - nzhamstar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7The idea is getting linux into the mainstream. I think MS would rip up their contract for Dell if they tried doing that.
However would dell get sued for releasing linux on its PC's with MP3 support bundled in? To get a DVD working requires using a hack of the dvd decryption software which is most illegal under the DMCA. They would get sued for that - wouldn't they?
Even to provide a resource for the user to install this themselves would be dangerous.
The problem is anyone running linux and watching divx/dvd/mp3's etc is breaking DMCA law aren't they? Wait till the respective co's chase them like the RIAA chases 10 year old with whips... - MeltedUFO, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Dell does support hardware with Linux installed on it, just not software. They could just put a *WARNING: Linux comes with no customer support* label on it.
- archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Hey Technopundit, how long have you been working for Microsoft now?
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I get withdrawal symptoms installing Linux. The lack of product activation leaves me with a sick feeling in my stomach every time I just put in the disc and it works. I need someone looking over my shoulder damn it.
One day you too can have withdrawal symptoms every time you don't have to fight with your OS to activate it. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6It's advertising as much as anything. MS productivity apps get advertised by simply being pre-installed on the machine. Yes people can go out and get OOo but first they have to know it exists. A pre-install in place of Works would also bring the price down.
- fulldecent, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I can guarantee you that if Dell installs any flavor of Linux on a new line of boxes, that flavor will become particularly well adapted to run on those boxes.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Linux is Linux. What works for one distro can be made to work for another. Most of the people who would be upset are capable of installing and configuring their own distro anyway.
What will happen is all distros will ensure they have good support for any major hardware vendor that supports Linux. If Dell ships a Linux desktop then the eventual install base means all will work properly on it. - archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"To get a DVD working requires using a hack of the dvd decryption software which is most illegal under the DMCA. They would get sued for that - wouldn't they?"
No, they can pay a license for legal dvd playback, which is possible under Linux (I believe Linspire was the first distro to offer it). - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Dell and Linux? But then Microsoft would 'whack' them (see below).
Dell's secret Linux fling
,----[ Quote ]
| Dell's love affair with Linux is a clandestine affair these days,
| conducted in secret, away from disapproving eyes. But now the pair
| have been spotted in China.
|
| When Michael Dell first saw the web-footed beauty, he fell head over
| heels. Six years ago Dell pledged a series of strategic investments
| in Linux companies, including Eazel and Red Hat. The romance
| attracted the disapproval of Microsoft however, and barely lasted
| weeks. Very quietly, Dell dumped the bird.
|
| It later emerged that Microsoft's OEM enforcer Joachim Kempin had
| promised Steve Ballmer that he'd be putting the screws on PCb
| uilders, or "hitting the OEMs harder" in his words.
`----
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/
Microsoft 'killed Dell Linux' - States
,----[ Quote ]
| The States' remedy hearing opened in DC yesterday, and States attorney
| Steven Kuney produced a devastating memo from Kempin, then in charge of
| Microsoft's OEM business, written after Judge Jackson had ordered his
| break-up of the company. Kempin raises the possibility of threatening
| Dell and other PC builders which promote Linux.
|
| "I'm thinking of hitting the OEMs harder than in the past with anti-Linux.
| ... they should do a delicate dance," Kempin wrote to Ballmer, in what is
| sure to be a memorable addition to the phrases ("knife the baby", "cut off
| the air supply") with which Microsoft enriched the English language in the
| first trial. Unlike those two, this is not contested.
|
| [...]
|
| Earlier memos described that it was "untenable" that a key Microsoft
| partner was promoting Linux. Kuney revealed that Dell disbanded its Linux
| business unit in early 2001. Dell quietly pulled Linux from its desktop PCs
| in the summer of 2001, IDG's Ashlee Vance discovered subsequently, six
| months after we heard Michael Dell declare his love of Linux on the desktop
| the previous winter.
|
| Compaq was also mentioned in other memos, with Microsoft taking the line
| that OEMs should "meet demand but not help create demand" for Linux.
`----
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/
,----[ Quote ]
| A 2002 e-mail exchange filed with an Iowa court during one of the last
| state antitrust suits seems to say so; Redmond defends the thread.
|
| "We should whack them, we should make sure they understand our value,"
| wrote Paul Flessner, a senior vice president in Microsoft's server
| applications unit.
`----
http://news.com.com/Did+Microsoft+want+to+whack+Dell+over+its+Linux+dealings/2100-1014_3-6153904.html - andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Thus are the issues with the US laws. They allow a monopoly on the part of large companies. I can only hope it is inevitable that as more people become educated about these issues they will vote accordingly.
- andycr512, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6If you want support, search - I don't want to plug a specific company, but there are several that sell GNU/Linux-based computers and include both hardware and software support, and the prices are pretty good if you know where to look.
- tnoy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Seems they've added more since I've last looked into it, http://www.dell.com/linux
- deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Doesn't really matter what specific distro they use. If they provide support for the hardware it will be possible to make it work with anything.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4That would undoubtedly happen but for every student that installs a cheap copy of Windows there will be someone who sticks with Linux. Right now people buy Mac and Windows based boxes and install Linux on them. We have to expect the opposite to happen to some extent but if only 15% of users stick with Linux they are still users that we may not have had otherwise.
We would also be able to play market metrics then. MS count all PCs sold with Windows as a Windows install. My laptop came with Windows but now runs Ubuntu. I have no doubt I am still in their statistics though. Essentially we can play them at their own game then and perhaps a more relevant metric will then be adopted. -
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