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PlayStation 3 support now standard in Linux 2.4
linuxdevices.com — Sony-contributed patches aimed at adding machine-specific features for the PS3 have been merged into the stable 2.4.20 kernel tree. This makes it easier to create and maintain Linux distributions that run on the PS3.
deviceguru- 627 diggs
- digg it
- noseeme, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29How about 2.6? :)
- whalesalad, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4Seriously. does Windows 98 come with IE7 now too?
- deviceguru, on 10/12/2007, -1/+42Correction: the LinuxDevices the article now says is the latest stable 2.6 kernel, v2.6.20.
- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -29/+11Sony contributed code to Linux? Why does that just seem wrong?
- contextclouds, on 10/12/2007, -7/+40That's a genuine Digg Dilemma.
You're not supposed to like Sony or Sony products, but you're supposed to love Linux. While this seems to be a wonderful stride for Linux, it's hard to separate the two.
Oh, that and the fact that Sony's love affair with seemingly arbitrary proprietary formats and DRM to the point where it's actually harmful to other software is pretty much the antithesis of the openness that Linux represents to many. It's hard not to be skeptical. - kauko, on 10/12/2007, -8/+42"Sony contributed code to Linux? Why does that just seem wrong?"
Trying to be funny, apparently.
It doesn't seem wrong at all, unless you're a hardcore "sony suxxx0rzz" kid. - trash115, on 10/12/2007, -3/+34This is great news, i dont see how anyone on digg should have a negative reaction to this.
Besides the obvious anti-sony bias of course. - mlorimer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+29What's wrong with it? Contributing to the kernel means it has to be open source and follow GPL. Anybody willing to go through the necessary peer review and follow those licenses to add to the kernel sounds great to me. I think more companies should contribute code for their proprietary devices to the kernel devs (nvidia, ATI, Intel ip2200, Atheros, the list goes on and on.....)
These vendors have been doing it for years for windows, about time they recognize linux as a target market and start supporting it. - Kolenka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9This isn't surprising, actually. They lately have seemed to be a bit of a fan of BSD and Linux. I even received a copy of the GPL v2 license with my TV, listing components that I could download the (likely unmodified or only lightly modified) source for that they used in the Sony Bravia XBR2 line of TV sets from their website.
- popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17I give Sony some brownie points for their recognition of Linux libraries used on the PS3.
In the About Playstation credits on the PS3, at the very end, Eric S Raymond is credited for the libungif libraries and Silicon Graphics is credited for libtiff. - foobar5892, on 10/12/2007, -20/+13TAKE THAT, WII FANBOYS!
- uberlord, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Well, I don't feel to comfortable with a company known for proprietary and exclusive products working with Open Source developers...
But, ATM, Sony isn't doing anything to hurt Linux - and as long as they don't change it to the point where it's not even Linux anymore, adding drivers is fine - maybe even good. - bonesaw, on 10/12/2007, -12/+4Everybody is bagging on this guy because he's skeptical of Sony? You guys are retarded. Sony has given us many reasons to be skeptical of them. Anybody remember the whole Trojan Horse story? Maybe this is sony's way to get through the gate to destroy. (maybe a little dramatic, but you know what I mean)
- mlorimer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"Everybody is bagging on this guy because he's skeptical of Sony? You guys are retarded."
If you had any idea how kernel development worked, you would realize that you are the retard. With open source, everybody sees the code. A trojan would be found real fast. Not to mention that not just everything submitted gets into the kernel. It goes through a lot of review by the current kernel devs. The chances of this including a rootkit are slim. Even if they were there, it would only affect PS3 systems (CPU drivers don't really have anything to do with network drivers...). Sony would be shooting themselves in the foot. - george99, on 10/12/2007, -16/+2great. now sony's adding a rootkit to the linux kernel.
- etnu, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Sony's alternatives:
- Use windows (no way in hell)
- Develop their own proprietary OS (too expensive)
- License some other OS (none of them are very good, or they're too expensive)
- Use one of the BSDs (what difference would they get over Linux, honestly?)
Linux is a strategic decision for Sony, much like it is for IBM and other big businesses.
You think IBM isn't a big, greedy, stupid company? You think Novell isn't a big, greedy, stupid company?
Please.
Accept that businesses must be involved to make the product successful. In order for Linux to be successful, it must have a place in commercial stacks. Currently, that place is embedded devices / small electronics and servers (in other words, anything where the GUI is custom-built or non-existant). - burke, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Why is everyone digging down everyone who's pointing out all the stupid crap Sony tries to pull on a regular basis?
- Foma, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2mlorimer: "If you had any idea how kernel development worked, you would realize that you are the retard."
I think if he were a retard, that would preclude most kernel development savvy. Just sayin'.
- contextclouds, on 10/12/2007, -7/+40That's a genuine Digg Dilemma.
- MrSpontaneous, on 10/12/2007, -27/+3What's the point? I don't see the ps3 as being a large userbase for linux - why merge it into the kernel and create bloat?
- Peterh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23Cell is (hopefully) going to be available in hardware other than the PS3 soon enough.
- lottadees, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28It is not bloat. Don't forget the kernel is configurable, so just because the code is available doesn't mean your distro of choice will be using it.
I think this is pretty cool of Sony actually. - neilschelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+21There's lots of code in the kernel that isn't used on every system. I can't believe someone would actually find fault with a hardware manufacturer providing drivers for their hardware to run Linux. Would you prefer all drivers that you don't use were removed?
-N - MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16It's also modular. Just because something is "in the kernel" doesn't mean it is in memory even when it isn't in use.
- vandread, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4just recompile your own version of the kernal and remove the driver modules you don't want to be included with it. Its surprisingly easy and there are tutorials on how to do it spread throughout the net.
- uberlord, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I see it as a about 20m + new users. Of course, that's a very low estimate - it's only that low because most users won't even be using the Linux portion of the PS3.
@Peterh
I don't want cell in anything unless they can develop a more reliable way to manufacture it. Cell is great, but it's not at all reliable - the fact that they needed an extra inactive cell just to keep it stable says something.
'Redundancy'? More like, 'Warranty' XD - HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sony needing an additional core on the Cell is no different from Intel selling dual-core processors from bad quad-core stock, or the graphics vendors selling scaled down chips with non-functioning pipelines disabled. The yield ratio for cores having ZERO bad transistors is always abysmally low for any silicon manufacturing process. I hate sony as much as the next guy, but "the fact that they needed an extra inactive cell just to keep it stable says" that they're in the business of manufacturing digital hardware...nothing more.
- madchedar0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+33Say what you will of Sony, but this is pretty cool of them.
- Dunadan, on 10/12/2007, -24/+12Unless they snuck in a rootkit too... ;)
- mikedoth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Very odd question, but if developers wrote software using GDK would it need further changes to make it usable on the PS3 so that it programs wouldn't need to be rewritten. I was thinking about getting one of them but didn't know if many programs would work out of the box.
- Orbatos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Not really, due to the current PPC support the only parts really needing work are accelerated graphics and some way to leverage the other cores efficiently. From what I understand, working around (or through) the hypervisor is real barrier, once this is done the PS3 will be a very usable general purpose system.
- drlha, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6So does this mean people could release non-officially licensed games for the PS3? I mean, if PS3 can boot linux, what's to stop someone writing a game on top of Linux, and selling it on DVD for PS3 owners? Or does the PS3 only boot Sony blessed Linux disks?
- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Good point. They would have to disable the standard copy protection and allow booting of all disks if they want to fully allow anyone to run any linux distro on it. I doubt that will happen though, as that would also make it easy to play copied games.
- darkchild, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You should be able to use any distro as long as its customised to support the PS3s architecture.
- l0ne, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The manual says you can install "Other OS" support. After this, any bootable PPC OS can be started.
You can conceivably create a distro that boots onto a SDL game, but you get no GPU access, because the hypervisor only provides virtual framebuffer support -- no direct hardware access. - JimXugle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I see what @drlha is saying...
If you take a canned bootable ISO image that has a Playstation 1/2/3 emulator on it and slipstream an image of a game disk into the first ISO's filesystem, you could conceivably make a "backup" game run.
taking what @l0ne said;
There will be a hack. I guarantee it. - drlha, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@JimXugle: I wasn't talking about piracy you idiot.
@l0ne: Thanks for the info, I didn't realise that the PS3 linux was running "virtual" hardware. - triplehelix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2you could write any game you want and sell it claiming it runs on linux, but if you want to use PS3, SONY, or PLAYSTATION branding your going to run into licensing issues.
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Remember someone said that the PS3 was the only next gen console? Next gen.. Next gen, that term's meaning is relative to who uses it. For Microsoft, next gen, means better graphics, better frame rates. For Nintendo, next gen means "A better toy". For Sony, next gen meant that the console needed to get out of its shell.
The key term to remember here is "convergence". A console converging with other technologies and or applications essentially becomes a PC. The PS3 isn't a console, It's a PC for 600$. That's what it is and that's why it's next gen. I currently own a Linux box under my TV set and I run MythTV for a PVR, Jukebox, Gaming Console, Movie Theater, etc... This is convergence.
Therefor it comes as no surprises that the kernel gets module updates for this system. I plan, in a year perhaps, to replace my mythtv box with a PS3 and that's the only thing I will need. The thing comes with the necessary libraries to compile applications on it, it comes with USB ports, network, bluetooth. At that price, this thing is a gem.
Don't be surprised if you hear people trying to compile MythTV on the PS3, this is probably already a common idea.- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3But the PS3, as far as I know, doesn't have any TV tuners (unless you use USB). Thus it could only be a frontend to MythTV. Not impressive seeing as the old Xbox, and even less powerful hardware, has been used in that manner.
- mlorimer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10The difference is you had to hack/mod your Xbox. Sony is supporting/encouraging it this time. Besides there are LOTS of USB TV tuners (they even have driver support in the kernel). I am not even a console gamer and this really appeals to me. Why? Because I wouldn't have to void the warranty to do it. To reward Sony for stepping up and recognizing/supporting Linux.
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5A USB TV tuner acts just like A pci one at the application level, there isn't any difference as far as I know. The only problem that I for see is compiling MythTV for the PS3 architecture and that is really only a compiler / library issue which will be addressed in time if we ever encounter it. Just like any kind of new architecture, just like my Athlon64 when I bought it. Now it works perfectly.
- RyeBrye, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"But the PS3, as far as I know, doesn't have any TV tuners (unless you use USB)."
If you have digital cable (which, if you can afford a PS3, is a likely possibility) - you can plug the firewire cable right into the digital cable box (Digital cable boxes are required by law to support firewire out - but some cable cos. are breaking the law) and you can capture the digital feed directly. You can also change channels... etc. directly over firewire - and MythTV has good support for FireWire capture. - mredamon, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3How do people plan on using this as a PVR with no "VIDEO IN" ports???
Can USB be used as a video-in? - mredamon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3RyeBrye, there is NO firewire port on the PS3. Any other ideas?
- RyeBrye, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"RyeBrye, there is NO firewire port on the PS3. Any other ideas?"
Wow, I just checked and you are right. What a royal piece of crap the PS3 is...
The best thing in this case to do would be to use it as either a MythTV frontend and have a backend do the capturing of the video, or if the cores were ever accessible to linux and it was fast - you could use it as a slave backend to encode video for you... but yeah - lacking firewire kind of sucks.
USB tuner support for MythTV isn't very good.
- username9000, on 10/12/2007, -11/+3Why is Linux on a PS3 so great? With the limited RAM and all the other hamstrings associated with an OS on a GAMING CONSOLE, can anyone tell me why this is so great?
- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6It's the fact that they are supporting it, I would think. And because "it can be done".
- vandread, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7limited ram isn't much of an issue in the latest generation where the PS3 has 256 megs of XDR ram that is more than enough to handle Linux quite nicely. Another great thing about it is that with Linux on your PS3 it is likely that someone will create an open source development kit for the PS3. With both being on the same system you can design your games and test them with any PS3 and don't need to buy a full development kit if you just want to screw around with it.
- popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5For the same reason they did it with the PS2. To have it exported as a computing device and avoid huge taxes. As a bonus, we get something extra to tinker with and quite possibly (soon) an HD frontend for Mythtv that's quiet, fast, and does an exceptional job for a fraction of the cost of a dedicated HD-capable pc frontend.
- lovedaddy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Because if the PS3 gets a "XBMC++" I'll be very very happy. XBMC has done the business for a good few years.. maybe a linux based ps3 with enough CPU grunt for HD playback will eventually replace it.
God bless XBMC, and fingers crossed for PS3 linux. - chedabob, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2I think you missed the fact that the name stands for "XBOX media center"
- lovedaddy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Riiiight and its based on the mplayer core (which is cross platform...)
- se7en11, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Does this mean we'll finally get all those great Linux games?
- vandread, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Sony is advertising the PS3 all wrong... they should be advertising the ability to play Frozen Bubble on the PS3. I might buy one just for that reason alone!
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9I don't give a damn about games. I want a media center.
- colklink, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@vokiel
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=facetious
- fmin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6Buried this article for the inaccurate title. There are huge differences between kernel versions 2.4 and 2.6!!!
- Krakn3Dfx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's too bad that while Sony seems to be encouraging open source and homebrew on the PS3, they constantly work to stop it completely on the PSP, which has become an abysmal failure. If Sony would make an effort to connect with the PSP homebrew community, it would only benefit them when it comes to PSP unit and game sales IMO.
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5That's called learning from your mistakes. Obviously they most probably have many license agreements with many game development companies which makes opening the PSP the same way they are doing it for the PS3 improbable.
Unfortunate, really. That will probably kill the PSP market, or maybe they have an improbable plan. ;-) - hfwarner3, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Technically, Sony is adding Cell processor support to the kernel. Since the PS3 uses the Cell, it gets the win, but I don't think Sony is going out of their way to help you run Linux any way you want on the PS3. When you look at it like that, Sony has not had a change of heart from the PSP...
- samdu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, unless you consider adding an item right in the main menu of the PS3 that says "Add OS" (or somesuch), and supporting dual booting out of the box, and sanctioning YDL, then I guess you're right... they aren't going out of their way to support your ability to run Linux...
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5That's called learning from your mistakes. Obviously they most probably have many license agreements with many game development companies which makes opening the PSP the same way they are doing it for the PS3 improbable.
- thecheatah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4For anyone thinking about using a ps3 for a pc, I have tried it and I have found the following issues:
1. Wireless card does not work (i believe no drivers are provided). I had to route internet from my wireless laptop to my ps3 since my router is upstairs.
2. I couldn't get sound to work. IGN however says it does.
3. Even though it uses a framebuffer, the display is fast enough to browse the web and play a few of the games provided in fedora 5.
4. Even though I bought the 60gig hd ps3, I would still recommend mounting a nfs or smb from a computer where you have a cheaper hd then the ps3's laptop one. I don't like the idea of abusing my ps3 harddisk.
It does seem a little slow when switching heavy duty applications because it has only 256MB mem.
Current uses: everything else but listening to music or watching videos.- popfrogs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Let's wait for Yellowdog before we pass judgment on Linux on the PS3. FC5 is just a quick hack and supposedly YDL is better suited for the PS3's unique hardware.
- hfwarner3, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Technically, Sony is adding Cell processor support to the kernel. Since the PS3 uses the Cell, it gets the win, but I don't think Sony is going out of their way to help you run Linux any way you want on the PS3.
- hockey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Does anyone know what kind of graphical support the PS3 has. In other words does it support OpenGL or some other kind of graphical API.
Does anyone have a clue how an indie developer could make a game to run on the PS3?- Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Currently it's just frame buffer ( = no hardware acceleration) but there's a chance Sony will release a driver, seeing as it can't be too different from the Nvidia PC drivers. Also, any one know why firefox wants to correct nvidia to Dravidian, invidiously and invidiously??
- dan90251, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Microsoft are supporting amateur game developers putting managed Games on the Xbox360. Since Sony seem to be acting nice towards Open Source what do people think the chances are of a Java Development kit (being open sourced) for the PS3 with an emphasis on gamedev for the PS3?
So far i'm at the Tetris level, but I'd love it on a PS3- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Because of the nature of Java, it's a language running on a virtual machine, you do not need any special dev kit for specific platforms. All you need is a JVM implementation. So, if the thing ships with a JVM that respects the Sun Specs, you probably will be able to run any java games on it.
Does it ship with a JVM? Yes it does.. reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Java_software_support The thing is a Blu-ray player, therefor a JRE/JVM is mandatory. - kauko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Does it ship with a JVM? Yes it does.. reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray#Java_software_support The thing is a Blu-ray player, therefor a JRE/JVM is mandatory."
Yes, but that JVM is not accessible from PS3 Linux. It's buried somewhere in the native PS3 OS and if Wikipedia is to be believed, it's a highly specialized Java implementation based on a subset of MHP APIs and some other stuff, so running generic Java stuff on it would not be possible even if you could access it somehow.
Anyway, since Sun is open sourcing the whole Java platform it shouldn't take long until somebody compiles the Java SDK for PS3 Linux.
It's nice to see Linux on PS3 but I'm a little bit skeptical regarding the actual usability of it. I believe only 256 megabytes of memory is accessible, which is not that much if you want to use it as a PC replacement. For media center use 256 megabytes should be enough though.. - gregorypierce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There has been a LOT of discussion about this. Currently the open source JVM doesn't build on the platform, but that will change soon enough. The real issue is when Sony will provide good OpenGL support for Linux as many of the Java Gaming APIs can talk directly to OpenGL :)
- vokiel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Because of the nature of Java, it's a language running on a virtual machine, you do not need any special dev kit for specific platforms. All you need is a JVM implementation. So, if the thing ships with a JVM that respects the Sun Specs, you probably will be able to run any java games on it.
- dioscaido, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Wasn't there a story recently that the perf of linux on a PS3 is really bad, given the oddness of the cell architecture and the limited ram?
- deablo13, on 10/12/2007, -12/+0PS3 suck big balls.
- Zoids, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6PS3 has no mouth.
- deablo13, on 10/12/2007, -12/+0yes ps3 has no mouth but it steal suck ball.
- Zoids, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Given that it has just launched, I would like you to provide some concrete evidence as to why "it steal suck ball."
- deablo13, on 10/12/2007, -10/+0to much money
- colklink, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1-That PS3 is one hot piece of ACE. I know from experience dude. If you know what I mean.
-No you don't.
-Well, not me personally, but a guy I know. Him and the PS3 GOT IT ON!
-No they didn't.
-No. No, they didn't. But you could imagine what it'd be like if they, eh, eh... - troublemaker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Oh, look at me, I've joined the PS3 bashing mob!
:P
Seriously, grow the ***** up. The PS3 is ***** great, the _real_ problem is Sony. Not the console.
- knodi, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6Too bad it runs linux like a 800mhz P3.
- xymor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@uberlord
GPLv3 for the rescue? - Escamillo, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2Adding bloat to a kernel for the sake of a failing console?
- OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Why not buy an old Powermac G3 B&W, upgrade the cpu to 1Ghz, add 1gb ram, and put a 120gb hdd in it (the biggest it will take with the built-in controller). system and all upgrades will cost you less than $300 and as far as I can tell run faster than Linux on the PS3. (you can get real video accelleration and do some basic OpenGL on it). Obviously if you aren't hardcore about running Linux/PPC there are even better options to choose from.
I think it's neat that Sony wants people to run Linux on it. but it seems kind of nerfed at the moment without GPU access. - inkubux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The only good news about the PS3 for a while :)
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2There they go again, shafting the 2.2 and 2.0 kernels. Why can't they backport this stuff to Minix?
- aquastrike, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I really wish Microsoft would support the homebrew community... Just look at how deep we've had to hide the .xbe's in xbins because of their stupid licensing on the XBOX dev kit.
- chedabob, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Um...Like don't most companies do that?
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Aren't they coming out with XNA for homebrew development?
- BinaryCortex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This port is good news for the dual cell processor blades that IBM is making.
- chess007, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1If you want to develope games, why not do it for the GPX2 (which has full linux support)? Considering Sonys track record (the rootkit and such) why give them any money??
- raid517, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Show me fully accelerated video and Dolby sound - then I'll bite.
It will take a while for hell to freeze over first though. - anmol2k4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Do All our SPE belong to us ?
because in soviet Russia SPE runs Linux. - Wasyu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Are the SPUs fully supported as these are the real reason cell is great and linux on the PS3 an interesting proposition.
Also the 3d chip has to be supported for me to consider the PS3 a good linux platform.
You kinda need acceleration for any games you might play also working with a dumb FB using a modern window manager and playing video can be a less then pleasant experience esp if you are going to play 1080 video.
Otherwise I might as well stick with a PC with an AMD dual core and nvidia graphics card.
But atleast sony is being more open with the hardware which is better then how microsoft has been with the Xbox 360 so I'll give them credit for moving in the right direction and supporting hobbiests.
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