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- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+32Just because you are ignorant of the benefits doesn't mean everyone else should suffer. If you want to keep shelling out your money for software go right ahead. You can pat yourself on the back while handing over a week's pay for software that is available for free. Me, I'm too smart for that. I don't like having someone else control what I can and cannot do with my computer.
So, basically, YOU just don't get it. Don't worry about it, Microsoft will take care of you. But you can stop spouting off like you have a clue about it. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Really I want to see our schools become more efficient, OSS can provide that. Simple a matter of tax money getting spent as efficiently as possible. That alone is enough justification forget the myriad of benefits to OSS.
- JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20I'm in school, and I want Beryl running with a completely transparent cube on a 3200x1200 display with open source drivers. Can microsoft offer me that? Didn't think so.
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Wrong. You are supposed to be teaching how to use a computer to do things and the concepts behind those tasks (such as how to analyse data in a spreadsheet). You are not supposed to be teaching how to use MS Office or Windows. How is it a bad thing if kids are taught on different OS's, so when they go into a workplace will feel at home on any OS? Also, this is about open source, not just the OS. It also means software such as Open Office, Gimp, nVu, Firefox, etc...
You obviously don't teach IT in schools else you would already understand this. - brstilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13What would happen if all of the sudden all public school students graduated with complete working knowledge of open source software? Wouldn't that be a heavy push for industries to get on board with Open Source? Suppy and demand works both ways: people do have to learn what's being used in the real world, but also what's used in the real world reflects what people are learning in school.
Besides, using OpenOffice isn't that hard. - m3mn0n, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Good to hear they're trying to take the right steps here.
- underthelinux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@georgeStone
To break that trend, clearly.
The idea is that you can pick and choose, not be forced to use something. It's the whole point behind OSS. Free as in choice (and speech) in addition to free as in beer.
edit: i swear i hit the reply button. - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12"Free as in choice"
Sadly school teaches the exact opposite. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10There is currently an early day motion going through parliament in support of OSS in schools.
http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=31752
I contacted my MP via WriteToThem.com and he has signed the motion. Can we get anyone who is British and capable of using a keyboard to contact their MP.
http://www.writetothem.com/ - cloudsoup, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I saw work by 17 year-olds taking ICT AS-Level that tried to defend using Access as a database option because it had better functionality than ... wait for it ... Excel. No other consideration. And that work had been check and ok'd by their teacher.
Maybe you should teach them a little better in that primary school of yours. Perhaps a little MySQL? - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"e're a MS shop, like it or not. What are the colleges/universities teaching? *nix, Perl, PGP, Macs... You are no use to us at all. We run a MS enterprise with Outlook/Exchange and write in VB.Net, C#.Net and ASP.Net"
Funny, we have just the opposite problem. We have to work hard finding competent coders and sysadmins in a variety of languages, and most of the resumes that show up are VB and Visual C# jokers that have no grasp of core networking or computing principles.
MS makes it easy to code things they predict that you'd like to do, but tough to go any further than that. That's bred a generation of lazy coders who've never done the legwork of taking apart a datagram, writing to the hardware itself, or anything near the lexical parsing that shell script and perl folks get exposed to in their first year of coding.
This is exactly the issue that separates the wheat from the chaff. If you just want to drag and drop MS-access fields into pre-build web forms all day, MS coders are your man. If your project requires actual thinking and knowledge, those kids will only waste your time. - raindog469, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8JonForTheWin, which open source drivers will let you run Beryl at 3200x1200? This isn't a flame, I really want to know which video cards I should be buying.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Any graduate who can't transfer his skills between systems has wasted his time. Really it isn't that difficult to move from one system to another, nor is it that difficult to learn a new programming language once you have the basics. Most Unis teach Java which is far and away the dominant language in the corporate space, .Net need not apply as of yet.
- yoyar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I've interviewed and worked with numerous individuals that either have strong MS skills or strong *nix skills or both. In particular, I notice time and again that those with strong *nix skills can move over to MS without any big problems. MS types tend to be afraid of anything different such as the dreaded and frightening "command line" ! By bypassing those with *nix skills you are probably missing out on all sorts of people that could teach you a thing or two about how computers work, rather than how to operate the MS Wizard that knows all. MS technologies are a one way street. They are built that way on purpose. People who learn about the *nix's learn how computers work and hence their skills are ultimately transferable. It's the same with programmers. Anyone who can't migrate their programming skills fluidly between languages is not yet a true programmer. In particular, I find that those indoctrinated into the MS world are very reluctant and fearful when it comes to moving into non-MS languages.
- arielmaidana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7You want to educate students or turn them into trained monkeys. Because that approach -- teach kids Window$ only -- turn them into trained monkeys that can't mentally separate the task from the icon or button they're pressing.
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well that is a problem with your recruitment strategies then. If you aren't advertising for a certain skill, you aren't going to get someone applying with it...
Generally, university comp sci courses are supposed to teach the basics of 'how to learn to program in any language' and the concepts behind aspects that are common to all languages.
Also, I think you are pushing it a little far thinking that universities all teach *nix, Perl, PGP, and macs... These seem like the sort of things people have self taught themselves.
Also, to use a reword of your own sentence 'I'm not saying MS stuff is useless, it has its place but if you don't use open source software then your business opportunities and recruitment possibilities are going to be limited.'
EDIT: GMorgan - exactly! - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Well actually being the IT manager in a school kinda puts me in a place of 'knowing what I'm talking about' - I have to ensure that the stuff we have in the school is able to be used to teach the children the curriculum. I have yet to see a curriculum that calls for word though.
I do like open source, I think it is excellent and perfectly suited for schools.
I also think that the problem you have is that you work in a primary school - the IT in those schools is nearly always treated as less than important during the childrens' education. When you can realise that schools are supposed to teach theory and not how to use a particular tool then you will be a good school employee - until then I do wonder what kind of an education any children you are involved with teaching are getting. - ptn4egl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Ok, I'm a tad older than most here, and when I took the computer class in HS(1989), we were taught, I have no idea what the spreadsheet was, but it sure the hell wasn't excel, if anything is might have been Lotus 123, which I had been using since 1983 BTW. Same thing with the word processor, it wasn't Word, heck, I don't even think it was WordPerfect. Again with the database: DBase III all the way.
You are teaching concepts, not which brand of software to use!! EDIT: Touche Sotired
A lot of people are like "oh, with the educational discounts MS gives, it's not that expense". $300 on top of hardware for 5000 computers for a small district is a lot of cash. Schools are closing and firing teachers because of budget cutbacks, why spend wasted money on computers/software that can be had for MUCH less?
Heck if they were really smart they could save on hardware as well and install something like DiscoverStation from http://userful.com. - Sotired, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ GeorgeStone
I totally disagree with your assessment and take on what schools should do.
I don't disagree with you on what is actually happening in schools.
It is appalling to me that schools have "computer" instruction that only teaches kids to work in PowerPoint or any other "program". This is not teaching them "computers." It is teaching them business software, and exactly MICROSOFT business software. If it is to be a "COMPUTER" class then it must teach the underlying works of what ANY program is trying to accomplish. This concept seems to be so lost on the masses. The average parent has a mindset going back 20 years."oooh , Johnny better know WORD if he is going to get a job!" I would argue that objectivity has been lost because all anyone seems to be aware of is windows. (sure people know there are Mac's etc but everyone assumes the penultimate is windows/MS) If you teach concepts you will have people proficient on any machine that exists. If you teach to a program you will have created drones. I can't think of a better analogy than G.I.G.O.
And it speaks volumes that you feel this is how is should be done.
EDIT -- Localzuk - beat my post and said it very well - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Oh I do hope so! Why tie the schools into a stupid PFI related thing rather than just spend the money progressively and improve that way? Yet another UK govt 'scheme' destined to fail miserably. Lucky for our school we are scheduled to be in around Wave 12 - 16 or something like that - so my job is safe for a few years yet.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Precisely most Uni's focus on things like UML and project management, different languages are something the student should pick up themselves during the course of their study though they naturally have a default language.
- hiPpymIck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3done
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I'm confused... Why did my original comment regarding how this links in with the BSF get dugg down and the later, more pointless one (admittedly, it does contain a dig at the government) get dugg up??
- jon314, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"What would happen if all of the sudden all public school students graduated with complete working knowledge of open source software?"
Teen pregnancy would reach an all-time low. - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Most school kids (in the UK at least) have computers at home, 99.99% of which will run Windows and often MS Office."
That is because parents buy computers so their children can do work on the same software as the school. So if a school was using open source software and open file types it wouldn't matter what software the parents were running - so they would, most of the time, opt for the cheaper option.
I see it all the time, parents asking 'what should I be buying for our kid to do their work?' The response at the moment is 'go to dell or someone and buy a machine with Windows XP and a academic license of Office'. I would love to be able to say 'well it doesn't matter really - any decent office program will produce the work so it can be used in school. What is your budget?' To a parent the £150 MS license cost is a lot of money, not to mention anti-virus software and any other software that they pay for.
Also, you mention 'Gaming PC' - what has that got to do with school? If a parent is buying a computer so their kid can play games rather than study then there is something wrong there. Also, with the money you've saved on MS licenses you can go out and get your kid a nice games console for them to use.
Finally, your argument about installation is moronic! Have you installed Windows lately? What in gods name were they thinking with that ugly assed installer in XP? Compare that to, say, Ubuntu Linux - stick the disc in, double click on the 'Install' icon and follow the very simple 'click here' instructions (unless you want to customise it of course). - Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@krevmax
"VB and Visual C# jokers"
Thanks for the chuckle. I could never quite phrase it right, you just helped me! Thanks :) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I did some contract work (through a company.. blah) for Becta/DfEE back in 1999/2000. They had a lot of Sun machines for both server and desktop systems. I'd never used a Sun machine before and they wouldn't let me "try one". :( I bet all those Suns cost a fair packet!!
- localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I can see why you stay away from OSS articles - you have a complete lack of knowledge of the issues involved.
Open source/Free software is produced to bypass various things, namely - vendor lock in, closed source (which prevents people editing their own software), sharing of software changes with other people.
Corporations aren't all bad, no - but Microsoft is. They are convicted monopolists for christ's sake. They do not produce a quality product (I am guessing in this case, as you are talking about the OS market share) as it is insecure and buggy.
Before ranting about a subject you know nothing about, please do some reading. - IanLynch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The UK government has a social inclusion policy. Over 3 million children in the UK live in poverty http://www.jrf.org.uk/child-poverty/ So there is a significant minority that do not have computers at home and if they did would probably have to steal the software. This puts them at a clear educational disadvantage especially when the same government has an e-strategy that includes home access. We do not need to change over night but it would be sensible to have a strategy to change and encourage and support such change in institutions that would like to change rather than making them feel like social outcasts for even suggesting it. BECTA should be positively encouraging change, spending mony on practical pilots and key development to facilitate change. After all it is preciding over a gravty train for the closed source software industry that has already spent over 300 million poinds sterling on reinforcing the existing monopoly. For 300 million we could cover the entire curriculum several times over with web based apps free to everyone in the world. Now that would be providing global leadership in education. Instead we have a mess with schools with software they bought that sits on shelves because installation is very expensive an no-one thought about it. So much for the TCO arguments. The emperor has no clothes and people are beginning to realise it.
- oobuntu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Can anyone explain a bit more about EDM and if it would ever get noticed?
Along similar lines, there's a UK petition about ridiculous software patents here:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/softwarepatents/
I suppose if it got a squillion signatures somebody might notice.
ukuug link didn't work for me, had to use google cache - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2To clarify for anyone unfamiliar with why Microsoft software is "very important" for UK schools - and this is how it has been explained to me by someone who's an expert:
1. Microsoft offers benefits - "grants" of vast amounts of windows "licenses" for software as long as the institutions in question buys some of the software.
2. These amount to a piece of paper which says "you can install the software x amount of times", and nothing else. They cost nothing, what just actually happened is Microsoft sold £40,000 of software and a piece of paper.
3. These pieces of paper are incentivized, and in some cases effectively required by the British government because they have nominal balance-sheet values in 6 figures, and the British government is very keen on making the books look good at any cost (as far as the education or socialized health care systems in the UK are concerned, this is indisputable).
4. Many schools in the UK are effectively stuck with Microsoft software unless they want to suffer funding losses. I'm quite serious about this.
Some of the people in the field barely understand the issues at play to be honest. Besides which, British ICT in education suffers from a notoriously virulent plague of very very underskilled workers - there are plenty of schools in the UK where an MCSA and a clean criminal record would pretty much guarantee you a senior ICT post - that won't stop them acting like they are gods in their field and talking down to us lowly programmers, though. - ziadoz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It would be beneficial if there was more open source support in the education industry, after all we are meant to be educating our youth right, not indoctrinating them with one set of software. Students do need skills in applications such as Word, Excel etc (for industry etc), but they also need to understand that Microsoft Office is nothing more than an application applying a widely accepted set of techniques to create a document. They should be taught that other packages such as Open Office all achieve the same result and in most cases work similar/the same. They should also learn that Microsoft Windows isn't 'the computer' so to speak, and that there are other operating systems available out there that have different pros, cons and uses.
There are several big obstacles in the education industry through. For example those schools running Windows systems often use RM software, so they're pretty much locked into their upgrade cycle, hence BECTA's opinion on Windows Vista is moot seeing as schools aren't likely to upgrade until RM port their software to it anyway.
@localzuk
I can't agree with you enough about qualifications. Although I have some qualifications of my own (and am working towards my final one), being thrown in at the deep end and having to sort problems out, coupled with an interest in the industry and a desire to learn are what a good Network Manager needs. My year running 2 networks taught me a lot of valuable skills you just don't get when studying for qualifications. - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5This is all well and good but how will this affect the 'Building Schools for Future' program that is currently in its early stages? This scheme requires the schools to sign upto a managed ICT package with one of the big providers (such as RM or Capita) in order to get the funding for ICT.
None of these big providers provide any form of open source support or software so what will this mean? - richardiscool, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmm... in college, the door to my normal lab room has a huge silver plaque with:
"Supported by
MICROSOFT" (In caps to represent big ass logo)
My networking room also uses all Cisco equipment, and is called the Cisco Academy. - Hecks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@GMorgan
A fine idea, I have just contacted my MP and urged him to sign the EDM. He's a Tory, but I'm hoping this is one area that backbench MPs will be able to think for themselves rather than on party lines. - Sothis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It means that we are going to take on the BSF programme next ;)
Watch this space... - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1And this is why you are more than likely not a teacher.
You teach what italics is - then you show them how to do it in the software they are using at the time. You also teach them that it varies depending on what they are using. Yes, you are teaching them the software, but you are first and foremost teaching them the concepts.
Your example is pointless - the interfaces in Office and OpenOffice are very similar (as are they in AbiWord, Gnumeric or other open source productivity software). This is because the interface is a very efficient way of doing the work - have a work area surrounded by the common tools and the rest in menu's.
However, I do admit that I do see a problem in the teaching of ICT in general. Children are not encouraged to investigate things for themselves enough. It is being taught to the test rather than with the aim of teaching a child how to learn to use computers. - DarkPenguin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is something that needs to happen to my school. (and for that matter, everywhere)
I am a junior at my high school, and instead of study hall, I decided to help the tech department at my school. This included to fixing computers, testing new software, and just generally helping them. It took them needing a way of monitoring bandwidth of their fiber lines to the other schools just to consider having one Linux box on their network. They are primarily a mac school, with windows machines for the business classes, and the reason given for not wanting to go open source was because of security problems. (Because Microsoft products have NEVER had security problems!) Only two of the main guys that work there have a good understanding of Linux. I am not trying to be mean to tech people who don't know how to use Linux, (If you don't need it for where you are working you don't HAVE to learn it, its just a good practice in case the the times change), I am just saying that schools should use more OSS instead of Windows, especially MS Office to save money and show there is more out there than just Windows and Mac. Students will learn how to use Windows at home. Besides, this would help to try and get rid of Microsoft following drones. - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Your points about budget are not really true within a school - the budget for ICT would be spent on other things rather than software so there wouldn't be any budget cuts.
I agree with your assessment of technicians in schools though. This is a problem that plagues schools. For some reason they see the job of Network Manager as being not as important as the equipment itself and are happy to spend a pitiful amount on the salary for the staff but bucket loads on equipment.
Also, you have to understand that qualifications don't mean everything - for example, at present I do not have an official computing related qualification, what I do have is experience in the field, the ability to learn things speedily and on the fly and also an insatiable desire to have things running smoothly. I don't see what having a qualification has to do with it really.
Anyway, it is always the programmers fault! (It takes the heat of us network managers) - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1On the point of Vista support - this is a major issue in education now as schools are wanting to upgrade to it now but can't because 90% of education software is incompatible with it due to the manufacturers having not done any changes since 16bit was the flavour of the month (one example would be the SIMS.net software which works, kinda, but there are still modules that require the Launcher and in turn 16bit apps).
If the software were open source it would be a heck of a lot easier to fix things! - MeatBiProduct, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2My boss pays me $80,000 a year to develop it so someone wants it.
azimuth - not everyone will be a pencil jockey like yourself. - jasmin888, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Windows is NOT running on 90% of the world's computers. It may be running on approximately 80% - 90% of DESKTOP computers. In all other areas MS is not doing particularly well - and is loosing ground in the desktop area. Don't forget that 3rd world countries are adopting linux at a tremendous pace - and large countries like Brazil and China are more or less forcing this move (or pressuring hard in that direction).
Whether the kids in school care about open source or not is pretty irrelevant - it is about providing the best solutions to them. And oss do, not always but, generally provide better solutions than closed source - and what's more, oss is almost always far less expensive and far more flexible. - LeslieFletcher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is the original message alerting the UK FLOSS community to the Early Day Motion:
http://www.ukuug.org/mediawatch/?p=821
It has some background to the EDM and suggestions of points to make when writing to MPs urging them to sign. - Sotired, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@adriantr
"Therefore having Linux in the school would be rather pointless because you would need to relearn everything if you were moving to Windows and MS Office in the business you decide to work for."
There would be little or no re-learning needed to migrate from linux to windows. (there would be initial confusion as to how their pc is able to be hijacked by malware, but that's not really considered a learning curve ) We are in fact speaking of SCHOOLS teaching COMPUTING.
"Then theres the whole setup thing. Installing Linux is a more daunting task than installing windows. Even with the simplest versions. "
Have you ever installed Windows on a blank machine or re-installed it?
Have you ever installed any distro of linux on a blank machine or even a dual boot?
How many "average" people have ever installed WINDOWS onto their machines ? please.
I completely challenge your assertion and would prefer a linux install anyday over a windows install.
I have had both fail and I still would put linux up against any windows version install,
I use Windows , I use linux , I have no beef with MS ( maybe a tiny one about spyware) but I am no fanboy - this thread is about schools and teaching computers vs teaching just microsoft.
I understand this "default" mindset but I am challenging it. I feel that it is wrong and misguided. - jon314, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"The fact is, Linux is a nice idea that cannot stand up as a mainstream OS."
Well, I guess the argument's over and we can all pack up our linux boxen. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'm not a teacher.
I never said I was.
I said I work in a school. - localzuk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2oops
- jon314, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@mathiasdm
Didn't you know that:
(knowledge of open source) = k / (getting laid)
;-)
(This is a joke and it is, of course, completely false. Everyone knows open source advocates get all the women.) -
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