What is Digg?80 Comments
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -1/+60I wasn't aware today was Opposite Day.
- thebellmaster1x, on 12/11/2007, -1/+53So, does Nokia not have people do research for them? Like, not even a quick Google of "OGG"?
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -7/+32nokia is one of those companies who had it all lined up for some great stuff. but they continue to pump out sh*t. nokia is dead to me.
- zekt, on 12/11/2007, -1/+21Nokia, meet andriod. http://code.google.com/android/
Resistance is futile. - sparced, on 12/11/2007, -1/+19The Nokia N95 supposedly its flagship model plays Real Player files. Another format that should of died by now. I'm still grateful that mine was stolen.
- Dankoozy, on 12/11/2007, -3/+21Nokia is trying to become a Meeja company. a lot of their phones are not actually phones but "media devices". that means integration with content providers hardcoded into the firmware, lots of DRM, support for web 2.0 rubbish and probably means the overall hardware quality will go down to cover for the cost of all this new stuff. hopefully they will stay making a few decent phones because in the past they have been quite good until they started picking fights with Apple
- thebellmaster1x, on 12/11/2007, -1/+17Or is it?
Or did I just blow your mind?!
...Or not?! oh god my head asplode - pandasonic, on 12/11/2007, -0/+12Before you keep bashing them, please read the post on Ars Technica about this same issue. This article is misrepresenting a bit.
- zwaldowski, on 12/11/2007, -0/+12Nokia is right, but they're making it sound worse than it is. The Ogg Theora video codec was originally developed under a proprietary license. They "gave" it to XIPH, but put it under a permanent license to the XIPH open source community. They renamed it Theora and enabled it to work with the OGG container; No royalties, but it's still proprietary. However, ***** DRM.
- mooninite, on 12/11/2007, -4/+16So this is why Nokia refuses to include Ogg as a codec on their Symbian phones. Ridiculous.
Oh but I can encode my audio into a DRM format and have it play!!!!!!~ O.o - Xorp, on 12/11/2007, -3/+14OGG is cool and all, but I'm happy with MPEG-4 AVC + AAC in MP4/MKV. Gets the job done.
- visability, on 12/11/2007, -3/+12This is not what Nokia is saying at all. Ogg (the container) may be FOSS and patent free, but Ogg Theora is a patented technology. Right now it's free to use and implement, but what Nokia is trying to prevent is having everyone adopt it, then ending up with patent lawyers knocking on their doors. The DRM optional portion is to prevent media providers from taking one look at the spec and tossing it; without it we'd probably end up with a million bastardized unstandardized variations of HTML5.
- HappyScrappy, on 12/11/2007, -0/+9Nokia isn't objecting to Ogg Vorbis (the audio format), but to Ogg Theora, the video format.
So your thesis that this why they don't have the audio format is probably wrong. - mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -0/+8mmm not really.
Necessary evils are things customers want because they provide some benefit at a roughly equal cost.
DRM has no benefit whatsoever to customers, it does not drive prices down, it does not spur competition, it does not even prevent property or media theft in any way. It does however have significant cost, so much cost in fact that many users have hit a hard ceiling with worthless DRM'd products and will be scared away from future purchases because of it. - th3wiz4rd, on 12/11/2007, -1/+9You'd be surprised how much ogg is used. Tons of PC games use ogg audio -- Halo, Far Cry are 2 examples (just google it, you'll find a ton more).
- PatrickBrown, on 12/11/2007, -0/+7I love this argument as one can't help but to laugh:
"The format is proprietary because it does not include proprietary DRM." - robbh66, on 12/11/2007, -1/+8I agree- or some idiot went way beyond his authority and submitted this without proper authorization. I can't believe Nokia would make a move like this considering their move to open platforms.
- justinjstark, on 12/11/2007, -0/+7That is the most ignorant comment I have read today. Supporting an open format has nothing to do with releasing their source code. How about you go read this:
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses.html#GPL
Next time maybe you should have a basic understanding of what you are talking about before you start spreading crap. - cubeeggs, on 12/11/2007, -1/+7"One example for these codecs is ITU-T Rec. H.261, which (in its first version) was ratified in November 1988. While not competitive with today’s state of the art codecs, it’s in the author’s personal experience not that far in its performance from Ogg Theora (this technology is what the current HTML5 draft suggests for the same purpose)."
I wonder what the author's been smoking. - kaph, on 12/11/2007, -0/+6Necessary for who? business or the consumer?
- drunkendash, on 12/11/2007, -0/+6For the record, Nokia doesn't think DRM should be included as part of the standard in question here, it only suggests that DRM be supported so that it could be included.
And Ogg is a container, Ogg Theora (a video codec that runs inside Ogg) is proprietary: the patents belong to a nonprofit group. - richardiscool, on 12/11/2007, -0/+5Why would they wannabe a smaller company?
- mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -0/+4Just because they use Linux as a means to bring devices to market quickly and cheaply, doesn't mean they are your open source masters of the universe. There are probably some limited but legitimate concerns on Nokias part, but in any case most of the world is going to end up using h264 and aac anyway, both of which are open standards despite the royalties required for encoder/decoder implementation.
If you read the paper they are basically saying the costs of licensing for the MPEG4 codecs is not an issue, but there may be plenty of reason to avoid Theora or Vorbis as a bona-fide standard, especially if that standard is dictated to the rest of the world by the W3C. - mikemx, on 12/11/2007, -1/+5as long as nokia continue to use the fantastic capabilities of the reassuringly proprietary flash lite, it's all good
- trenchfever, on 12/11/2007, -1/+5For me, Ogg vorbis reaches near transparency at 90kbps. I tried encoding at the same bitrate on variety of codecs such as mp3 and aac. Needless to say, vorbis is the king.
You fail - homeagain1, on 12/11/2007, -1/+4No, he's right, AAC is an open standard. Yes, it has patents, but so has MP3 and other codecs.
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -1/+4Parent seems to be spamming some pub spa site http://digg.com/users/mikleorhan
- th3wiz4rd, on 12/11/2007, -0/+3http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Games_that_use_Vorb ...
- Twoodge, on 12/11/2007, -0/+3Media Player Classic.
- bradx, on 12/11/2007, -2/+5Little to do with DRM. Ogg Theora is the video codec being recommended, which is under half as efficient as H.264 is. With Ogg Theora as the HTML5 standard video delivery codec, hi-def content over the web will be delayed for a long time.
H.264 and AAC are international standards that have been adopted by everyone from Satellite and cable broadcasters, to Apple and NATO. It's our best shot at a universal audio/visual format, and introducing Ogg is only going to push back progress. - trenchfever, on 12/11/2007, -2/+5 Nokia as it stands now is an apple wannabe. Thus this crap and no vorbis support in the latest phones. They do not want an open codec to get much exposure. It's not as if providing a decoder cost them anything considering vorbis was build in for nokias a couple of years ago.
- init100, on 12/13/2007, -0/+3Only in countries that allow software patents. In other countries, you can safely ignore them.
- th3wiz4rd, on 12/11/2007, -2/+5Nokia, here's a link you should check out: http://www.webster.com/dictionary/proprietary
- aliguana, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Nothing stopping Ogg from becoming proprietary, if the wolves smell enough share-sales...
- init100, on 12/13/2007, -0/+2"Theora is still covered by patents, so it's no more open than H.264"
Except that H.264 requires license fees to the patent holders and Theora does not. - vwvan, on 12/11/2007, -4/+6Nokia, Umm can you still get service on those?
- MeatBiProduct, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Coming from a web developer - no one distributes video in WMV anymore its all FLV, from clients to big name sites.
- mrsteveman1, on 12/11/2007, -4/+6AAC isnt a drm format, its an open codec standard. The container is where the DRM happens. MP3 is also an open standard at this point.
Both of them however require royalties for encoder/decoder implementation, but neither of them force you to use DRM, so that has nothing to do with it. - bruce89, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Whatever happened to Dirac?
- Pfhor, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Why is the parent getting dugg down?
They are merely pointing out another resource for any interested parties to look at. And it was done in a very benign way. It wasn't blogspam, and it wasn't trolling. - Surkow, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Just imagine the license issues with H264 and AAC (you want to pay for your browser?). Even though W3C recommends Ogg Theora...this doesn't mean other formats won't be supported. It's just that browsers that would adhere the HTML5 specification should at least support Ogg Theora.
- inactive, on 12/11/2007, -0/+2Except there talking about OGG Theora the video codec, not OGG Vorbis
- intangible, on 12/12/2007, -0/+2Try building a player for those formats and see how much you have to bend over for the licensing fees.
- mooninite, on 12/12/2007, -0/+1Explain how it is open then. You have to pay to legally encode with it. It's not free at all. It's only "free" to stream, and that's not earth-shatteringly innovative.
- SteveMax, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1Yes, everywhere in the world. They just dropped a not-so-profitable CDMA line (and make the best phones right now)
- init100, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1"having everyone adopt it, then ending up with patent lawyers knocking on their doors."
You mean like with their preferred format, H.264? - init100, on 12/13/2007, -0/+1Why would anyone do that? The Ogg codecs are licensed under a BSD license, and can thus be included in proprietary software without any need to orelease the source. Otherwise, why would Ogg/Vorbis be so popular among Windows game developers?
http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/Games_that_use_Vorb ... - inactive, on 12/11/2007, -1/+2Yes, except they are not OPEN standards, that mean every single web browser, operating system, mobile phone will have to pay money to some company.
That company can also decide not to accept it, for instance if you are making an operating system, but are including your codecs that could be a threat to H.264 (for instance they might be better), they can stop you using H264 in the firstplace and try and stop your other codecs gaining ground. Or perhapses the H.264 company invests in another company and the competitor to it wants a H264 license. H.264 could get brought out by Microsoft or Apple and they could simply restrict all licensees to using their platform. - Theli, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1DRM is the internet equivalent of "duck and cover". Just because piracy is a problem, doesn't mean any solution can be deemed necessary.
- kinggimped, on 12/11/2007, -0/+1I love Nokia phones. I dislike their policies.
N95 FTW. -
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