What is Digg?83 Comments
- baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -3/+26this is one of the best articles i read about the Linux kernel in a long long time...
definitely worth digging up ^ - cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24You *actually* really loved it? Versus... Virtually really loved it?
@JonForTheWin "the system is GNU no matter how many mis-pronounce it "Linux"
Well, no - in fact this time it really IS Linux, because this is about the Linux Kernel, not a GNU/Linux distribution. It might help if you read the article next time. - newbee70, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20A very good read, brought up some points this noob needed to know!
- Gatesophile, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I'm sure glad they are visual images, because those audio images are just horrible.
- cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14I don't believe for one moment that any software driver would have so much "super secret code" that it would help the competition. That's got to be bullocks #1 these days. I think nVidia either has really ***** driver code and won't release it, or too many lawyers that won't let them.
It's not like drivers contain schematics on how to build the GPU and exactly what equipment you need to do it.
The benefits of releasing drivers GPL compatible open source are innumerable. - tony883, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20I actually really loved that article. *diggs*
- mikeoh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Buy Intel graphics card. They write open source drivers for their graphics cards. If Nvidia/Ati start losing business from not open sourcing their drivers then they will be forced to write open source drivers.
- cinnix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Mirror [ with images and text :P ]
http://www.kroah.com.nyud.net:8080/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html - jbus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@ maninblac1
Good, then you should have nothing to complain about. - spartan777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10he didn't mention ATI or NVIDIA anywhere in the article, they were only one of many implicated. You must not understand the situation with gfx drivers and the linux kernel. The reason their drivers cannot be included is not because they are corporations that abuse American citizens (that's laughable. did you really write that? how old are you?). It is because they are closed-source. It doesn't matter if the RIAA wrote the code, or Muhatma Ghandi, if it is closed-source and non-gpl, it isn't getting into the kernel.
is reiserfs4 THAT big of a deal? is it even worth the energy to type such whining? just use ext3 or previous version of reiser. more stable than xfs? I'm not sure where you come out with reiser4 being MORE stable than xfs either. XFS is more than a decade old, tried and true.
"...I have to apply 20 or so patches to even get a functional kernel"
Regarding you're complaints, I'm pretty sure you fit in the minority, the 1 in 6,525,170,264 kind of minority. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11It's been on the home page before, but it can't hurt to give people a refresher course, especially as Linux gets more and more popular these days.
- jbus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10It might be because the manufacture of your card didn't release a GPL driver or at least release the specs that would allow a driver to be made by someone else. The problem is with the manufacturer, complain to them and stop buying their hardware if they don't provide what you need.
- jbus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Ndiswrapper may work for you, but even if it doesn't why are you letting one hardware vendor determine which OS you run? Complain to the vendor and don't by hardware from them if they are going to restrict you to one OS with their drivers or lack thereof.
- tribble222, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Last time (http://www.digg.com/apple/Linus_Torvalds_autographed_Mac_Powerbook_on_ebay) it was MIT -- make up your mind!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Why does the vast amount of drivers they have not include a driver for my network card?
- goffy59, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6loved the article so much.. and i don't even use Linux.... Ill use Linux one day :). Very promising.!!!
- msjacoby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5That was a fun read.
- spartan777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'm intrigued to know of the driver in the kernel that has only ONE customer, or the arch w/ only 2 guys using it in the world.
excellent read. makes me want to start contributing to the kernel development. - davidrools, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Wow I never knew there were so many people working so hard to make my Linux experience so wonderful...for free! I really feel like I owe all these guys a huge thanks. So if you're a kernel developer, tester, or especially a reviewer (as this guy says are so underappreciated)...I say a big THANK YOU!
To whom should I donate if there is not a unified body that develops the kernel? Who pays these guys to do such great work? - Wireddd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6http://www.kroah.com.nyud.net:8080/log/images/ols_2006_keynote_29.jpg
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Do you think sun would really allow dtrace to be in the linux kernel? Think about that, sun isn't a charity organization - there's a reason why the two are incompatible.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8I'm surprised it hasn't made the front page yet. It is a very popular presentation. One of the off-the-shelf references, just like the Halloween Documents and Linus' UseNet post which introduces Linux.
- cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6You are very naive if you still think the GPL is bad for the Linux kernel at this stage in the game.
It's GPL. That's the license. Sorry if you want a freebie you can sell closed source. You can't have one. Get over it.
@Geronimo: You do realize that there's been a lot of buzz about Solaris going GPL? You didn't miss the fact that they GPL'd Java did you? They might not be a "charity" organization but they're headed more and more towards the GPL. dtrace might actually be in the cards for the future. For now, if you love it so much, just go ahead and use Solaris. - pete83, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Duggmirror was too late. I couldn't find the images, but here's the text:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:DGqdxki10NEJ:www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html+Myths,+Lies,+and+Truths+about+the+Linux+kernel&hl=en&strip=1 - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@cbreaker
If you read carefully you might just notice that they are considering going to GPL v3 which isn't compatible with GPL v2 linux. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"The benefits of releasing drivers GPL compatible open source are innumerable."
I agree but they are coming from the dark an mysterious corporate world where they don't realize this just yet. As linux spreads like a virus, it will be clear. - spartan777, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3intel is really starting to improve their integrated gfx too. their latest was running cod3 or something like that. I think, if Intel really gets a larger share of the gaming gfx market, and Linux starts to break into the mainstream, I can see NV or ATI open sourcing their stuff in a few years.
Drivers do give away somethings. It is all about how the gfx interfaces with the OS and other hardware. NV and ATI are EXTREMELY competitive. Maybe even more so than AMD and Intel. Neither will want to give away one ounce of their secret sauce to the competition. Besides that, there's always the corporate climate to consider, and I'm sure stockholders don't really give a darn about open source ethics or the greater community. - tony883, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ cbreaker:
Yes. *Actually* loved it. Some trick I taught myself with a USB cable. - andrewsb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2First digg was 238 days ago: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Urban_myths_of_the_Linux_kernel
- Agret, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you are running an old system either get hotplug or if you are running a new system get rid of coldplug and get the latest version of hotplug. I use bleeding edge code on mine (gentoo) and have no problems with hardware detection. It's your distros fault for using outdated packages.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Due to the nature of the GPL, it makes it so driver support is pervasive. The flipside is it makes it so the latest and greatest drivers - which contain code that a company's competitors might benefit from - are supported half-way if at all under Linux. Hence why nvidia/ati drivers aren't that great under linux. Hence why gaming under Linux just isn't there. But the fact that linux runs on so many platforms means we get all the performance boosts discovered from running linux in different environments. No one OS is perfect.
- EdLesMann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Out of the box? Are you kidding me??"
I am probably going to get hated on for being a "Linux zealot" or some such crap, but in my case it is completly true.
I have 14 computer systems at my disposal for testing and I Administer another 30. Out of all of those systems I have a single wireless card and two network cards that are not picked up by Linux (funny thing is that all three use the same Broadcom driver set).
Of those systems,XPsp2 will not install on 3 of them because of SATA drivers and will not install on another 2 because of the RAID drivers. I am aware of only 2 video cards which the driver set is installed and properly works with a decent resolution and refresh rate. None of the Broadcom network devices are picked up and I have about 5 other network cards which are not picked up. Sound cards rarely work and I have many problems with USB. When I must install Windows (2k3) on the rackmount systems (all identical) I spend more time getting the devices to work then I do installing Windows. Linux catches all of it.
So what is the difference? In the Windows world the companies write drivers for you to install. In Linux other developers write drivers for you to install and they may not have the resources to harness the hardware properly. People just assume that they will have to install drivers under Windows and tend to forget that it didn't "just work out of the box".
It has been my experiance that out of the box, Linux wins hands down. It is just that the devices that don't "work out of the box" get the most attention/frustration. In the case of Manufacturer supported drivers, Windows wins hands down but it sure didn't install the drivers "out of the box". - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@markusb
"Yes, the reason is that the manufacturers don't care for Linux support for their stuff. But as a simple user I don't care, I just want my device to work with my OS without fuss."
They say that history always repeats itself. Sometimes it appears that Open Source is on a mission to prove this by re-learning the political and economic lessons of the 20th century the hard way. Starting with the most basic fact: money talks, BS walks. In other words, without a solid economic foundation, ideology does not endure over time.
Getting better vendor support for Linux is really very simple, just show them the cold hard economics of how it will put more money into their pockets. Once the hardware guys are convinced, do the same for software starting with game developers. Put forth a convincing argument and they'll be all over Linux like white on rice. Until someone can do this, it's unlikely that Linux will ever enjoy the kind of support infrastructure that Windows has. - jetpig, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3problem is that intel's hardware compares to nvidia's/ati's hardware the same way that nvidia/ati's drivers compare to intel's. the reason intel isn't a major force in graphics is that you just CAN"T run games like supreme commander (or any of the other new games coming out) at all on their equipment. i truly wish i could move from windows to linux. but i don't want to have to reboot to play a game and i don't have the deskspace for two comps or the electricity bill to run two comps.
with the nature of linux, i'm sure someone could figure out a way to kill all extra processes while gaming. i.e. X goes to a minimalistic mode where only what is needed is kept running, that which is needed to put the pixels on the screen, and without the massive overhead of windows, games could get far more advanced on modern hardware simply cause they have so many more resources to work with that aren't tied up with keeping my start bar up to date or searching for new plug and play devices, or making sure i don't get a virus.
but alas, my requirements are such that i can't make the leap yet, i've tried, oh how i've tried. and those days were glorious, but the sad state is that my 8800 is better supported in VISTA than in linux at the moment.
a side note is that not only will linux benefit from open source ati and nvidia drivers, so will windows. because the improvements to the linux drivers will often be portable over to the windows drivers. however, when the linux drivers start progressing faster than the windows ones, people will start moving over, and as more people move over, more game companies will too.
there's still more to moving people over, anti-piracy (game companies will want DRM-esque copy protection, etc...) but it's a start. - patpi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"This just is not true at all. We have a whole sub-architecture that only has 2 users in the world out there."
about what he was talking? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The site is crawling. Go here for the mirror.
http://www.kroah.com.nyud.net:8090/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.html - Szandor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just because you don't get it doesn't make it "silly".
- t0ny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1For those of you that say Linux does not support stuff as good as Windows look at my laptop Dell Inspiron 8600 ( ya, I know dell sucks frist hand ). I was messing with windows and the partion table got really messed up. So I did a complete reinstall of both windows and Linux. Frist I reinstalled Ubuntu. Every thing worked but the accellerated graphics. Well that was simple, so then I installed Windows xp sp2. From the install windows did not like that fact that I use another boot manager so it wiped it for me and put its own on. Then it was time to install drivers. I had to use my other computer and download drivers for the ethernet. Then copied that to a flash drive. Then I installed that. Then I was able to use the internet on Windows next I had to install display drivers, wireless drivers, bluetooth... ( a few other things that I forgot ).
Well in sort out of the box Linux supports a hell of a lot more then Windows.
/rant - sanguinemoon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1No, Jon. The userland is GNU. The kernel is linux. He was writing about the kernel :p
- Quadduc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's one for you:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Invisible_Pink_Unicorn.png - avolant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1right, the people who use it. thats how open source works.
- TrippleHead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ahh gotta love those visual images....then again...are there any other kind?
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That's why you buy hardware from manufactures that DO care about Linux support.
Video drivers, wireless drivers, SATA drivers, nic card drivers, printers, scanners, monitor calibrators. Whatever you want you can find "Free and Open Source" drivers for. The _only_ reason you really have to run proprietary drivers for is for high end 3d graphics and the only company that does it halfway decent is Nvidia. ATI isn't even worth considering.
If you have some piece of hardware that isn't well supported by Linux then chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.
Don't buy ATI motherboards or video cards. Don't buy Nvidia motherboards. Both those companies hide aspects of their hardware that dozens of other manufacturers don't have a problem with revealing.
If you want something that is well supported _right_now_ then you go out and buy a Intel motherboard with 945g chipset. Either Intel or Asus brand. Your chances for good support are very high. Video support (both 2d and 3d), SATA controller (if you get a nicer motherboard you can get ACHI support, which is a big bonus if you plan on using it later as a server), Gigabit Nic controller, etc. Pretty much any peice of hardware they come with. Although sometimes some people add extras that kinda screw up the deal.
For a cheap printer then HP is usually a good bet.
If you don't want to be bothered with looking around for well supported hardware, then purchase the hardware from people who do Linux compatibility for a living. And if they F-up, return it. These Linux vendors survive by word of mouth. (one place for decent laptops would be something like System76, but there are others)
Ya sure if you go and buy any old random piece of hardware or something that looks sexy in some advertisement, then chances are your going to run into Linux compatibility problems eventually.
So obviously if you plan on running Linux then that's probably not a very good approach for picking out hardware. - immrlizard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I hear you, but depending on what distro you are using there have been big improvements in the last 6 months. I just installed Kubuntu fiesty fawn herd 5 and have an older linksys wireless card (2 years old) but was able to get mine to work. There is some good documentation on this in the wiki. I am always skeptical with new versions saying they can do this and that. I always have to try it for myself. I am gradually moving to linux. I have a box at home and work now and use it for about 60 -70 percent of my work. Once I am sure that I can do what I need to do I will make the switch fully.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Yeah it basically confirmed all the criticisms I heard. With any design, especially lack of design, there are going to be tradeoffs. "Well we don't want to do the work of maintaining a stable API like Microsoft does so, yeah there's the rub."
- sshhaammss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yes, it Installed kubuntu several days ago and have had zero problems with:
1. the install ( even tho windon't see my drive fer som rzn)
2. the network ( even tho COX say u need wimplose2000 to 'be supported')
3. audio/video codecs. amarok is ok with me but i really like cmus
4. setting up a hewlet packard psc 1610 ( even tho the list only showed a psc 1600 it was close enuf)
5. chatting browsing and torrenting
6. unZIPping and unRARring various sh*t from the windon't world.
7. 2d and 3d gfx
8. compiling a lil bit of the old gcc -o hellowurld hellowurld.c
9. over 1500 packages installed and not a one of them complained. ( i thought fluxtorrent was hung during config but i found that i had to click 'show details' in Adept and deal with fluxtorrent's curses-bases configuration via Adept's console. so really there was no problem, just a button waiting to be clicked...)
and i was sooooooo blazed.... - Agret, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@spartan777
"NV and ATI are EXTREMELY competitive. Maybe even more so than AMD and Intel. Neither will want to give away one ounce of their secret sauce to the competition."
Uhh, AMD == ATI, NV & AMD are competetive..... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0pure *****, my NetBSD supports way more hardware by default than you can even imagine. There's no madwifi or ndiswrapper needed on NetBSD, because they actually made support for it, instead of hacking it in like the linux kernel tries.
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