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49 Comments
- punchingjudy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12My favorite line: "Microsoft has not talked to us about Linux. If they did, I wouldn't care. It's none of their business," concluded Dell.
icujc, I believe that one of the main points of the article was that it's more than just difficult to offer compatibilty and support for all distros, or even just the top few. He said it himself--they're tracking linux, not leading it. They may go out of their way and offer support for Ubuntu this year, and Slackware might be up on top next year. Popular Linux distros change like fashion (and many are just as ridiculous and ugly). - dukeinlondon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8There you have it. Dell is waiting for a winner but doesn't see himself making the investment to make one up. It's lucky though because if and when Linux takes root on the desktop market, it will be a case of the winner takes all ! And to me, that sheds a bit of light on the lack of cooperation between commercial distros : the first one to reach a mega deal as Dell or HP is likely to eclipse all the others within a couple of years...
- Hercules, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Dell is a desktop PC vendor. They sell servers sure, but they aren't making as big gains as Sun, HP, etc who offer AMD servers. Dell's money comes from selling desktop systems to home and business users.
That said... Linux isn't ready for the desktop. Servers? Sure! They are solid, fast, and relatively good at memory management (though I've heard bad things about the recent kernels).
If the world understood Linux as a whole, and that everybody had common knowledge how to tar files, how to do ./installs or whatever, then this would be a moot point. But the fact is that everybody *doesn't*. In fact, I'm fuzzy on it myself, and I've put some effort into learning at least the ropes of Linux. I host my website on a Linux system, and it's rock solid and fast.
But on a desktop? Sorry folks... it's just not there yet. Application installations are PAINFUL. And yes, I know about UP2DATE, Yum, Apt-get, etc... but it's as stupid as saying "Hey go to Windows Update for all your software". The fact of the matter is, sometimes you find a simple piece of software that seems interesting, and it's mind boggling for the new(ish) user to get it installed. You're looking for this dependancy, then that one, then another. Then you have to compile it to run.
Right now, there's only enthusiasm to support one destop OS other than Windows -- and that's Mac OSX. And why? Drag an application in, and it's installed. Self contained. Just ***** works. Drag it out, it's uninstalled. Just ***** works. It's clean, it's intuitive, it's pretty, and it has easy to use applications. It is developed with the 'idiot' in mind.
And since most people who buy Dells for their home systems ARE computer idiots -- it's suffice to say that Linux is not a smart move to add into their repertoire of products. It's a business folks.. they are in it to make money. - jabowa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Dell's general driver support for Linux is actually pretty damn good. Installing any distro so far on most Dell boxes have been very painless. Everything just works. And thats all I want my Linux installations to do, work the way I want them to work.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Your right, Linux on the desktop needs some work. There are two possible ways from what I've been hearing both here and elsewhere:
1) Wait for a 'super' distro.
That is unlikely to happen--thanks to the license (GPL). Don't like the way something is done? You have the source code and can modify it to whatever you want.
Though it is possible, say, if all the major distros support X, Y, Z; like LSB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Standard_Base)
2) Open source Drivers
If you simply had open drivers, you could sell the computer and let the end user deal with it. And if it was GPL'ed then the Linux community could help deal with the bugs.
Eh.. thats just my 2 cents anyway - icujc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I have to agree with his thinking in not supporting any certain distro, but instead sending a copy of the distro with the new computer. This allows the customer to install what they like and what is best for them. I mean isn't that what Linux is all about "Choices"! I see a market for consultants opening up that could possibly lead into a contract with Dell to support different distributions via a customer referral or pre paid customer contract much like the one Dell offers for MS support. They do this for hardware all the time, so why not with OS support?
- biggiefrye45, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yeah I understand his point of view on this topic you can't really pick one distro to put on all desktops because there are advanced users and noobies and all distros are different and all users fell comfortable on different distros so yeah i think they should just send out blank pcs with a copy of their recommended disto and maybe info of where you can download a different one..
- Mike.ohara, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What?
Just because Mr. Dell isn't starting the Distro wars on the Consumer front makes him a piece Microsoft Pocket Lint? Look at it this way. if Dell Chose a Linux distro as the primary OS on their Dell Product line.
It would start a Distro war. People would be fighting over why the Choice was wrong /right, etc Then the Other Distro's would get up in arms about not being the "big one".. you might end up seeing other PC vendors supporting Different Linux distros
Would become a big mess. I agree with Mr. Dell's Decision on it. basically Selling his PCs with no major OS.. allowing the User to make the choice themselves on what OS/distro they wish to use.
GG Mr. Dell
~Mike - danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Mr Dell forgets that he is the vendor and we are the customers ... "
Mr. Dell is a business man nothing more or less. Feel free to take your money somewhere else if you don't like his decisions. He is free to choose what makes sense to keep his business profitable and make the customers HE DESIRES happy. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Dell could create their own Distro, now that might work on some levels.
- Tripmoneyuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A good call on their part. If they concentrate on the driver support, then the Linux community will be a lot happier anyway.
I think I'd much rather them sell all of the home computers without an operating system though & have them supply an easy install version of Windows for the people who ask for it. This would be fairer.
They used to supply backup discs with the computer that did the exact same thing anyway. - mdshort, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2God I hope its not redhat..
*twitches* - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't know about you. But I've never had to compile an application on my Ubuntu desktop. I didn't even have to use the command line to set the system up.
On the other hand, I've been installing windows machines for years and they are by far harder to get up and running. Cd key this, Anti-virus that, yadda yadda yadda.
At first, the slightly different GUI throws you off, but no more than switching to OS-X has done for me. I setup a desktop machine for 30 people to use. None of them had used Linux before, and they get along just fine because most people these days only use the web-browser and AIM. - sailor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Mr Dell forgets that he is the vendor and we are the customers...he needs to do what we want.
I wouldn't expect him to offer every distro out there, but I don't see why the top 3-4 couldn't be offered.
Redhat, Debian, Suse...the chaos is caused by the multitude of dirivative distros. - Reality3k, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The above response is misinformed, imho. Most linux distributions include an update UI that works similarly to Windows Update. Also, it's usually more comprehensive as it includes updates and installations of 3rd party apps like XMMS or Gimp. Windows Update does not install Winamp or Photoshop.
- eadnams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dell printers arent HP, they're Lexmark.
- celticeric, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2People cite apt-get, emerge, etc... as ways that installing software is easy, and it is, but they forget that users are limited to software already packaged for that distro. I know, I know, there's a lot of stuff available that way, but it's still not everything. If you are using Ubuntu (the most popular distro) and want to listen to MP3s (the most popular format for music) then you need to install the codecs. But they aren't pre-packaged by ubuntu. Installing them involves a learning curve too high for most users. So we're stuck with a situation where the most users, using the most popular distro can't listen to the most popular type of audio file. Like it or lump it, installing things on Windows is easy. Even relative novices can get flash, quicktime, etc... working by pointing and clicking.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3All I want is a new box that I don't have to pay for Windows
- macewan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Linux was the first thing I did when they presented me with a new computer at work. It's been Ubuntu since Warty.
- zootm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is a sensible, responsible business decision on Dell's part. They're doing most of what's possible without further fragmenting the market by putting their weight behind one distribution.
- sailor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1To sell a product you need to make a product people want. Not what everyone wants that would be a bad business decision. As I stated in the original post use the top retail linux (redhat, suse) and possibly a open source distro (debian, ubuntu). That would make good business sense.
Linux it is not a "closed source" OS(not sure what you mean by that)..."we " is refering to consumers or/customers, if that wasn't clear in my original post. The major problem, as someone else noted, is the drivers being made by the hardware vendors. If Dell requested those drivers for linux distros, I am sure his suppliers would make them. What works in one linux distro will invariably work in another with a little tweaking.
To sum it up Dell will lose nothing by doing this, they could gain a new loyal user base...all in all a good business decision. Unfortunately I agree with other statements, that Dell doesn't want to piss MS off and lose their discounted Windows to put on their machines. - punchingjudy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I say they should pair up with Novell and their new distro (not SuSe).
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1__he needs to do what we want__
Who's 'we'? And supporting more than one distro isn't that easy.. especially if your dealing with closed-source software (but thats a whole other issue to discuss) - LycoLoco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've gotta agree with the others about apt-get and the Synaptic auto-update features. A year or more ago, I would have whole heartedly agreed with you, saying that Linux was too difficult to install software on, too difficult to find software, and that life in Linux was dependency hell, but that's just not the truth anymore.
Using Ubuntu as the example, you've got the auto-update through Synaptic that updates not only the essentials of security patches, as does your aforementioned Windows Update, but it also patches the other programs on your system and it can patch the other programs on your computer.
Now, if for some reason you like using the command line, all you have to do is apt-get install to install it and apt-get remove to remove it. It's just as easy using the gui.
And that's not even mentioning the amazing support over at www.ubuntuforums.org, a central location for help, which is better than I can say for anything Microsoft or in the Windows world. Yes, you can usually find the answer using google, but it's not a single resource you know you can turn to time and time again. Linux may not be quite ready for the desktop, but it's certainly already there for people who want to use AIM, email, surf the web, and your basic computer stuff. Not to mention that it's a fun side-project to learn about a new OS without spyware. - anagami, on 07/02/2008, -0/+1I was thinking of Dell Linux, HP Linux, Alienware Linux distros, not one hardware manufacturer being simply a generic cut & paste computer modules manufacturer.
That's what differentiates Apple; they make their own OS and hardware that is consistent with it.
Although I - GeoffANDtonic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I really agree with what Michael is saying. I myself was a PC user, who reluctantly used windows. I really wanted to get out of Windows so badly that I looked into Linux. I was so confused by the distributions, versions, and what-have-yous, that I sold my PC (that I built even), and bought a Macintosh iBook.
Another word about Dell is that the costs to support Linux would be massive. I do not think they would breakeven. The best bet you can get, is to buy one of the OS'less PC's from Dell.... Wait, why are we even talking about Dell! They suck! - xaqaria, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hercules:
I wish to dispell a common myth. In your comment you made the following statement:
"Dell is a desktop PC vendor. They sell servers sure, but they aren't making as big gains as Sun, HP, etc who offer AMD servers. Dell's money comes from selling desktop systems to home and business users."
Quoting from www.VarBusiness.com article on North American x86 (includes x64/AMD64/EM64T) market for 2005:
http://www.varbusiness.com/showArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=ZCF2WJUHCOLJIQSNDBGCKH0CJUMEKJVN?articleID=180205752
"As in 2004, Dell led the market in overall server share by unit shipments. Dell had a 28.4 percent share of the market with 16.2 percent growth at year-end 2005. Hewlett-Packard had 22.9 percent share with a 2.48 percent growth; IBM had a 12.9 percent share with an 8.8 percent growth; and Sun had a 4.7 percent share with a decline of 1.4 percent. "
When referencing the market share by revenue, the article states:
"Cut the pie by revenue share, and IBM comes out on top with 32.5 percent share and growth of 6.2 percent. HP takes second place with 26.8 revenue share and growth of 8.2 percent. Dell logged a 14.7 percent share with growth of 9 percent and Sun showed a 10.5 percent share with growth falling 7.6 percent for the year. "
Note that in either direction you look at the market, Dell grew more last year then the other three... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I am running a lot of dell at work, and 1 pc at home. Work - 7 Desktops, 2 Servers, 3 Database Servers, all on Dells. No problems for the past 3 years, except I just lost an External Dell Tape Drive, replaced within 24 hours, last week.
What is quite Ironic is the number of people bitching about Dell and hardware and about Dell and lack of Linux options.
Seems pretty clear to me, if you are building a Linux machine, you are most likely, usually builing a PC from scratch anyway. Thus why are some of you bitching about Dells being crap, when you ain't gonna be running linux on them anway? And you disdain windows and are running Linux on whatever you can find. - Dycacian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cool that is good to know :D
- danielwsmithee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1As it is right now many people spend the first 2-3 hours reinstalling a clean install of Windows to remove all the junk that is installed by Dell. So not much different.
Honestly about Linux I see this fragmentation as their biggest challenge. Linux adoption would proceed much faster if there was one standard version of Linux. Just imagine a standard version of Linux when you install it you can choose which features to make it just like any of the distros currently available. Dell would supply a Linux desktop that when first booted was configured exactly the way the customer wanted it in a simple fashion. - punchingjudy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"No Dell gives you cheaply made hardware that breaks within months of purchasing. "
I can't tell you how many people I know that are using Dell laptops that have been functioning for years. Tons of students in college rely on them, not to mention a large population of government employees working for the DOE. Your comment is a broad and baseless generalization. - punchingjudy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yes! But at least you can build your own blank box. Can't do that with laptops. :(
- ericesque, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yeah, I dugg it for the simple fact that Dell finally gave an official statement as to why they've not offered linux--widely. And the reasoning is quite sound. If Dell were to play favorites, those chosen distros-- or worse yet-- chosen distro would eventually be the only distro(s) with any chance of making it. Then Dell would be proclaimed the linux killer because through its selective support, it essentially killed off most other distros.
I think what they're doing is great. However, I hope they will work closely with various common distros to ensure the best possible driver support.
Lastly, I think that if you can't install an OS, you really shouldn't be messing with linux anyway-- you'll be in a world of hurt. - tylerni7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2[unnecessary anger]I can't tell why I shouldn't listen to you... either because you like Dells, or because you spelled über wrong, what kind of a geek are you?. [/unnecessary anger]
- treehead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The challenge we have with picking one is that we think we'd disenchant the other distributions' supporters."
;presumably, "supporters" here are those that ALREADY use linux. why not just pick a distribution (or two!) that you will officially support for those users that WON'T install it themselves? it's free! use redhat and suse, for default installs and other users will simply get their box, wipe it, and put another distro, say slackware, on it.
;i believe that the real reason dell is avoiding commitment is twofold:
1. agreements with microsoft
2. no infrastructure or personnel to support linux
;i think that their purchasing/reselling agreements with microsoft (as they stand now) are limiting to what extent they can promote and sell linux based machines. i also think that dell does not have the staff on hand customer support--for any distribution--and so is biding their time in that regard as well.
;all speculation. - amnesiac, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Dell's continued support for Linux is a huge gain for the Linux community as a whole. Mr. Dell knows he can sell a certain amount of PCs by appealing to the hardcore geeks who just want the hardware and want to install their own distro. Unfortunately, the general population doesn't want to receive their shiny new Dell PC, then spend the next 1-2 hours installing whatever OS they choose. This is why as long as they don't standardize on a distro and ship preinstalled on it, they'll always sell more Windows PCs than Linux PCs no matter how much better Linux is. Unfortunately, Dell sees the Linux Desktop market as too fragmented to be profitable, so it's better to treat it as a niche market at this point.
- punchingjudy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Hey, Dell is a good company when you're talking about bringing affordable technology to those who cannot afford a massively expensive hunk of pretty metal and plastic, aka the Apple computer.
- rafgar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I've said it before and I'll say it again. Use any distro that has Synaptic and software installations go like this:
1) Open Synaptic
2) Search for the program you want by name or by description
3) Click the box to mark for installation
4) Click apply
It's that easy. And with the number of programs available in Synaptic for most distros, you'd be hard pressed to need something that's not in there. Comparing it to Windows Update is foolishness considering the amount of software you can get from it. Uninstalling is pretty much the same process, except you mark for removal instead of installation. Distros that aim to be friendly to the Linux noobs are there. If you're new to Linux, get Ubuntu, Mepis, Xandros, or any of a dozen other distros targeted at that market.
As for Dells, yeah....you can get way mroe machine for the same price by either building it yourself or going to a lesser known company. I would never tell anyone, no matter how clueless they are, to buy a Dell. - icujc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0 punchingjudy, I don't think I made my point as well as I should have. What I meant is with all the distos out there it could open up opportunities for consultants to enter into a contract with Dell to provide various distro support for Dell customers in their regions. Such as, a consultant in say North Alabama could enter into contract to supply support for customers running x,y,z distros for the North Alabama region. This would enable Dell to provide customers in that specified area a local support consultant contact information and in turn enabling Dell to sell various different types of support contracts with new PC sells. I think Dell has it right in they will find it next to impossible to support all distro's or even a few distro's reasonably with their current support plan or program, but if they could enter in to contracts with consultants it may be possible to provide a better range of support to Dell customers. This does have the problem with certain regions not having qualified consultants, but then it again it was just a spontaneous thought which should never be taken seriously especially from me!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1What's stopping you??? Go to Tom and Jerry's PC(hypothetical Mom and Pop PC Store) and build away!
- zootm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Supporting Linux" is an impossible task. And since they (as he mentions) previously supported a single distribution (the only practical answer) and it didn't work out, they're sitting back for now. There's no way they could support every Linux distribution, and with no fruitful results from supporting a single one (which will always be "the wrong one"), there's just no point in them going forward with this support.
If a single desktop Linux emerges, so be it. So far Dell, as a hardware maker, has been cooperating with helping Linux driver support, but not with any sort of distro evangelism or anything. That's not their place. - linnerd40, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I agree with above (^) comment. What geek likes dells and thinks linux is bs?
- cliffzdude, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"Linux is ready for the desktop!!!" I hear this mantra over, and over, and over. The HUGE gains made? 1.5% of the desktop. Give me a freaking break.
Once every day or two is another article stating that the new hoogitty-boogitty deal Linux distro/appliance/hardware/etc is the death ring of Microsoft. Ya, right, yawn.
Give it a break, why must Diggers and Slashdotters be laden with Linux vs. Microsoft fanboys. Who really cares.
Give me a cool PC with a hot monitor and I'm a happy guy. I can use Microsoft and I can use Linux, actually I use both. Each has its place, any distro gets better than Microsoft then I'll use more Microsoft.
To date Microsoft has a better desktop OS than any Linux distro out there. Give me all the reasons you want to, you are a computer geek (as am I) and you don't understand the average user. Microsoft does, that's why Microsoft has the lead by such a WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE margin.
Its really quite funny, listening to Linux fanboys and fangirls (ok, are there REALLY any linux fangirls?) punch in their opinion about the cool distro that works on their box. It works for you, so it MUST be the shiz right?
Whatever... No Digg for you! (Or soup either!) - astrotrain, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2
No Dell gives you cheaply made hardware that breaks within months of purchasing.
Not to mention makes you buy their products for replenishment such as Ink Cartridges for their printers. For
instance, you can not just go down to Office Depot or Staples and pick a new Ink Cartridge for your Dell printer,
they altered the hardware (HP) to accept their cartridges only.
So that means on top of the lovely $35.00 you also have to pay Dell to ship the Ink to you. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4yup, way too many distros makes it look confusing and just too chaotic in general
But then, I'm an idiot who enjoys my Dells, castrate me with your ubber linux bs. - astrotrain, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2So let me get this strait... Mr. Dell is offering Linux on desktops, but feels he does not need to support it. WTF!
I wonder if he wants to be with the in crowd... or his techincal support can not handle or pronounce Linux.
Oh well, my statement still holds up with Dells..... "Dude! your going to hell with your Dell!.." - Mudcrutch, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2arg this author got dugg again...? he hasnt learned how to make better articles since the 80s thats for sure.
- adam.skinner, on 10/12/2007, -11/+1"People are always asking us about Linux. Ubuntu is popular now, but maybe not next year. I'd rather just totally abstain from the market than actually have to make an informed choice and run with it. You see, I am in Microsoft's pocket."
- jon_k, on 10/12/2007, -13/+1Post removed.
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