What is Digg?120 Comments
- raoulsland, on 10/17/2007, -7/+88I think the Debian logos are trademarked the same way the firefox logos are, so to ensure that a stable and secure product is shipped with the "Debian" name. I find funny the fact that the Debian community does not accept such policy for other projects.
I also agree that firefox/thunderbird have given the Linux desktop a huge boost. - Sazzle, on 10/17/2007, -3/+60i440
Actually more people might *consider* using Linux if:
* more average computer users *knew* it existed (believe it or not, most people don't visit the same geekery websites you do)
* it came pre-installed like most widly used computer programs and operating systems
* it was easy to set up and use by the average computer user (most people barely get by with Word)
* it were more easily understood by the average computer user
* not a tool for nerds to exhibit their superiority complex
Until those things happen, Linux will never get enough air time with "the average computer user" who, btw, makes up most of the computer consuming population. Too bad everyone isn't just like you, right? - Shadowman, on 10/17/2007, -50/+103Mozilla Firefox has more name recognition than any other open source project and gave GNU/Linux the world class browser it didn't have for a long time - so let's dump it! Another reason why I will never use Debian or it's derivatives. What used to be Firefox will now be just another Linux app that most people have never heard of. FOSS zealots and "social contracts" do nothing but keep GNU/Linux at 1% market share and mostly ignored by commercial software developers.
- spraguep, on 10/12/2007, -54/+101Is the entire linux community turning into a bunch of whinny little bitches or what?
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -35/+75If you think renaming the web browser is what's going to keep Linux at 1%, you are severely severely mistaken. The reason Linux isn't as widely adopted as it should be is for one reason only: it doesn't come preinstalled on hardware in any global mass-marketing kind of way that Windows is. I'm really sick of people bitching about how Debian sticking up for it's principles somehow hurts "Linux". Don't forget about all the other distros out there who still *do* call it firefox.
btw, if you can't handle frequent forks, then maybe linux isn't the right OS for you. - brstilson, on 10/17/2007, -6/+36"The reason Linux isn't as widely adopted as it should be is for one reason only: it doesn't come preinstalled on hardware in any global mass-marketing kind of way that Windows is."
That and the fact that installing proprietary drivers violates its license, so having a decent video card is not an option (if you're a purist). How about the fact that it's not simple and easy to use because the Linux developer community doesn't want it to be/has no clue about usability or GUI design?
Also, the Linux community is fragmented, split, and weak. There are so many flavors, distributions and variations of it that agreeing on a unified system of doing anything is a battle that most people don't care to be involved in.
Windows is king for several reasons:
1. Like you mentioned, it comes pre-installed on almost every computer sold
2. People want Windows because their friends, neighbors and co-workers have it
3. People don't like using a console and/or compiling new kernels
4. There are hundreds of Windows-only software programs in business (i.e. AutoCAD, Solidworks, Pro/Engineer) that do not have Linux equivalents that are viable for business. Switching is not an option for engineering departments because they run software that is exclusive to Windows.
5. The GNU GPL is unfriendly to proprietary device drivers.
6. The massive amount of legal issues involved with media formats. (have a bunch of m4p's you bought from the iTunes store? sorry, they don't work in linux unless you download this package....the package didn't work? google it...a google search only revealed months-old unanswered forum posts for your exact same problem in which the only replies were "i'm having that problem too, anyone have a fix?" sorry, I guess you're screwed.)
I love Linux, but to be blind to its flaws is to be blind to reality. - kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -7/+36They already broke that contract with the Debian logo.
- jamsea, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32Kinda like how Firefox has a special logo and name for their situation?
- stewacide, on 10/12/2007, -3/+31That the Firefox team doesn't want people putting out unauthorized builds as "Firefox" makes PERFECT SENSE. There is NO ISSUE here.
- mc7winkie, on 10/12/2007, -10/+35Debian is so full of bull *****. All they had to do was use the Firefox logo and none of this would happen. Mozilla nicely asked them to either use the logo and the name or not use either one.
- atdigg, on 10/17/2007, -14/+36News flash, if you use RedHat (or Fedora) you use "Linux" not "GNU/Linux" since it's RedHat Linux not RedHat GNU/Linux.
- atdigg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20look at his avatar ;)
Since we were talking about names I thought it's a pertinent observation.
By the way this issue is nothing new, Linspire/Freespire calls Firefox "Internet Browser" or something like that... big deal - lampshade, on 10/17/2007, -4/+21@diggapleaze
I think you have a very strong point and I'd just like to add to it.
My University offers windows XP for $5 and office for $10. Why? Because Microsoft although not so much the best at making bug free software is an AWESOME company when it comes to business. They know if they hook you on it in college or younger that you will more than likely use it for life. Kinda what diggapleaze was talking about with the preinstalled thing... - firehydra2k, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18isn't it "phased out"?
- otatop, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15The icon.
- ciphex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15In this pacific instance i think we can edit slide.
- jackhole, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12They probably got the name from this Matt Groening saying:
"Love is beautiful and exhilarating, like a snowmobile racing across the arctic tundra. Suddenly, it flips over, pining you underneath.
... At night, the ice weasels come." - kettlechips, on 10/17/2007, -10/+23Who said anything about RedHat?
- nattybohman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I love when people confidently use phrases and have no idea what they are saying. How do you grow to adulthood thinking the phrase is "faced out" for all of those years.
- Midnightbrewer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15"Since when was diversity a weakness?"
When you're trying to do tech support and you can't help the person at the other end of the phone line because their screen doesn't look like yours, not to mention everything's stored in different locations.
"I use Kubuntu, my girl uses Ubuntu, my mom uses Fedora Core, my friend uses Gentoo... but we all use linux. With a few mins I can sit down on any one and accomplish the same thing. It's just a matter of personal preference."
*You* can sit down and accomplish something, but can they? Trying to remember what each person is using on which machine, combined with the unique foibles of each distro (Fedora Core 4 has different issues than Fedora Core 5, which Suse 10.1 doesn't have at all) is a support nightmare. This is why Windows and OSX win; they may be propriety, but damned if they're not the same platform every single time.
"If a species in the wild continues imbreeding, many recessive genes come out, causing weakness and the eventual death of the species."
If a species in the wild becomes so fractured that it is too genetically incompatible to breed, it will find itself without a viable mate, its numbers will dwindle, inbreeding will become rampant, and the end result is the eventual death of the species. - yoda133113, on 10/17/2007, -5/+16Um...Ok, I'll try configuring XP as far as the average user does, lets see:
take it outta the box, Follow the big pictures that show exactly where all the hookups go, and then press the on button. hey it's on, now follow the on screen dialogs, it says something like auto installing stuff, hey it says it's done, now it says to plug in the network cable, and shows a picture of this cable here, ok, got that and it says I can go on the internet, hey i'm done.
That's about as configured as most people get, the same configuration they had when they got it, so yeah XP is way easier to configure. That said those setting won't get the most outta your comp, but hey, that's what power users do, not the average user. - ihatethedekoys, on 10/12/2007, -8/+18Keeping the Firefox branding isn't important enough for Debian to break it's social contract.
- sciencedude, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13The logo is under a copyright which would prevent it from entering the main Debian tree.
Mozilla does have a community edition policy which not only doesn't require the use of the image, but requires that you don't include it.
I think the real mistake is that the guy from Mozilla who went after Debian & the Debian maintainers of Firefox didn't know of this policy. It would make everyone happy:
http://www.mozilla.org/foundation/trademarks/community-edition-policy.html - sciencedude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Nobody said copyright and trademark are the same or that the trademark was what was keeping the logo out of Debian. Debian has a lot of trademarked logos and names in their distribution.
The Firefox icon is also protected by a copyright that runs counter to Debian's Free Software Guidelines. It is because of this copyright that Debian excludes it. Because Mozilla wants products bearing their trademark name to also bear the trademarked logo, there was conflict.
But Mozilla also has a policy where you can use the name and not the logo, as long as you show that it is unofficial (by naming it something like "Firefox Community Edition, Debian"). This might allow the name "Firefox" to stay in Debian. - pardonmedoug, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17I don't get it. What about Firefox isn't free? And why would I ever want to stop using it? Eh, just blow me off as the dumb Windows user I am and continue your discussion, I guess. Incidentally, the reason I don't use Linux is because I don't have the time to invest in what it would take to get me up to speed on these kinds of discussions. I'm sure that the rest of us 99-percenters feel about the same way. Linux might become more popular if it ever becomes more obviously user-friendly. I'm sure once you get your Ubuntu or whatever up and running it's just as easy as OS X or XP. But everyone I've seen who uses it knows a LOT more about computers than I do (and really, I'm not entirely ignorant at all), and so I find the whole thing to be intimidating, which my puny brain translates into "probably not worth my time."
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11This whole crisis is stupid. Copyright and trademark are not the same thing. I guess I'll fork Gentoo and call it "GNU/Debian Linux", with the unique special feature that the bootsplash says "Debian are Bitches". Or for money, I'll just fork RedHat Enterprise Linux and give away copies as "RedHat Enterprise Linux", with my special kernel patches that deposit your money straight into my bank account.
- Guspaz, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17Social contract? If this is what causes Debian to behave like a bunch of spoiled children, it isn't worth the bits it's stored with. All Debian had to do was use a damned 32x32 icon and this whole fiasco could have been avoided. Instead, Debian decided to throw a tantrum, annoying everyone except the most zealous "Free-as-in-speech-not-as-in-beer" idealists.
Get off your high horse and get in touch with reality, Debian! People care more about their computer working as expected than whether an icon is free as in speech or free as in beer! Either way, it's free, and not worth all this trouble. - warpzone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@ Midnightbrewer
Yes, tech support in Linux can be a problem... unless the source of the distribution is the one offering the tech support. That's why I think Ubuntu, as taboo as it is to say here, is a leap in the right direction with their Long Term Support. - Klowner, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9To commemorate the occasion, I made.. an unofficial iceweasel graphic..
http://dugnet.com/klown/pics/iceweasel2.png - jameson71, on 10/12/2007, -10/+17You undeerstand the situation and make too much sense for digg. Prepare to be "dugg down"
- Enquest, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11You would think people who comment here are smart people. Alas, they are stupid and would give there freedom as fool away to use a word, a logo. Just like a child would do anything for a icecream or candy.
Please people lets think about this. Debian stands for what they believe that should give you people goose bumbs. You always complain how company's are bad ass, how politicians are not true to them self etc... Then there is this Debian distro that stands for what it says think and does it. In return you act like stupid little fools and complain about.
I for one admire the position of Debian. They make the whole community think about what Freedom is. I think FireFox people will feel shame about this and the programmers will think that the marketing people have taken over. That is not good news for Firefox and somebody should do something about it.
Then you have these comments about GNU/Linux not populair. Well its a matter of how you look at it. As server it very popular, those people know why. As desktop it starting to get populair. More and more people are learning about it. Once you understand the Freedom that comes with GNU/Linux you won't care about better or less powerfull software. Your will care about your freedom! Or do you people like to be the toys of DRM, Palladium, Microsoft and other big company's who dictate what you can do with your computer and what not. How you slowly are able to do less and less and get more DRM on your computer. Fine for me enyou it while I enyou my freedom.
I hope you will for once in your life be able to think beyond the length of your nose. - n0xie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Wish I could digg this +100. Finally someone who actually understands what this is all about. Sticking to your principles is such a rare commodity these days. And here is a small group actually doing that, and all the 'smart' diggers rant about iceweasel beaing a 'bad/lame' name.
- sfabkk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Fragmentation is our most difficult problem, and it results from the freedom of open source software. It is a double edge sword, our greatest attribute and weakness in one swoop all originating from or free will. I have been using Linux for the last decade and sometimes I wish we could compromise more, because sometimes the needs of the many out weigh the few and the one. We have all seen projects fragment and thou some good does come from some OSS projects after, it is generally the exception not the rule.
. ...mostly it only just makes our competitors and critics smile.
...just a thought. - ooPo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8This isn't about open source software. It is about free software.
Debian chose continued freedom over compromising their social contract for the minor benefit of using the Firefox name and icon.
Perhaps you've missed the point. - MagicBobert, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Ha, I was thinking the exact thing.
It would be so embarassing if your story made the homepage and you showed the world you couldn't spell! - warpzone, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7+1 to Debian for sticking to their guns. -1 for IceWeasel, the stupidest ***** name ever.
- wistily, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Please stop focusing on the logo issue. The REAL reason why debian is forced to rename Firefox is because the firefox people require ALL PATCHES applied to firefox on debian to be first REVIEWED AND APROVED by the firefox team, even the SECURITY ones.
- Moparx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"I think FireFox people will feel shame about this and the programmers will think that the marketing people have taken over. That is not good news for Firefox and somebody should do something about it."
It is great to see debian sticking to their principles and I commend them on it.
However, you actually think Mozilla is going to feel shame just because it was protecting its trademark? You do know that they are legally required to protect it unless they plan on forfitting it completely, right? - ggoyal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4way to go, einstein
everybody knows that - teknik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5that's actually well done.
- springfield, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"If you think renaming the web browser is what's going to keep Linux at 1%, you are severely severely mistaken. The reason Linux isn't as widely adopted as it should be is for one reason only: it doesn't come preinstalled on hardware in any global mass-marketing kind of way that Windows is."
Actually, if there were one reason I would say it's the lack of games. - xJudahx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Faced-out?
Learn english first, then post. - gers4302, on 10/12/2007, -9/+12IceWeasel... yeah, that was good idea!
- CBTF, on 10/12/2007, -9/+11***** name ive heard in a while.. oh man.
- n0xie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Apparently you are quite knowledgable about Debian, as your argument is irrefutable.
- slashdotislame, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Very idiotic name. When you get a chance to rename software - DO IT RIGHT.
Call it "Internet", Internet Browser. Anything, and put the full software title somewhere else, in the About Box maybe! "Debian Internet Browser".. There we go. - bradleyland, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Seriously? That's it?
- karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2He is humping the globe. I like it.
- OnlyShawn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2they've got WMD's.
- Lobster, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Good on GNU (you)
They take a good open sourceproject, improve the security and make all parts free. I am using Seamonkey, Swiftfox is good, so is Konqueror and if you have tcl so is HV3.
Iceweasel is a funny name, firefox is just a panda. Linux is just a browser carrier.
Want your first taste of easy Linux? Go consult a rhino . . .
http://rhinoweb.us/ -
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