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- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -8/+30Yes but there is prior art aka Blender. MS ripped it off, should be easy enough to demonstrate provided we get a competent judge.
- 7of7, on 10/10/2007, -9/+30If you'd ever actually used it you'd find it very intuitive and that it, combined with shortcut keys, increases productivity immensely.
- TheNik, on 10/10/2007, -5/+25People that denounce Ribbon haven't gotten extended use with it. It obviously isn't for everything, but it works much better on things where productivity is key.
- Philluminati, on 10/10/2007, -10/+26Firstly, it looks like a poor implementation. Secondly I don't think we want to clone anything that has patents surrounding it. Oh, yeah, I forgot, Novell's MONO boys can do what ever they please since they're protected eh? If you build software with patented components then it can only exist inside that legal protection ring (Novell, Linspire, i forget the other ones).
These components aren't even that nice if you ask me. There just like big fat toolbars. Can't we already legally achieve this by stuffing panels into toolbars anyway? - tiftof, on 10/10/2007, -5/+20I personally like the ribbon interface in Office 2007. It's not just a whole bunch of buttons sitting next to each other on a toolbar. Options I don't use very often, but still need sometimes, I'll find them quicker on the ribbon.
The fact that it's visually attractive or not is very subjective (maybe even the fact if it improves productivity). It's important I think to be able to make apps which use this interface so people who like it will have another reason not to stay with windows. Same thing with compiz for example: some say it's not increasing productivity, just purely visuals (and therefore say it's useless), others say it increases productivity. But the fact is: it did attract a whole bunch of people to linux. Hell, even I tried linux because compiz looked amazing. Now I'm windows free and I wouldn't switch back to windows even if I couldn't run compiz anymore for some reason.
I think that every bit that makes some more people try out linux, is important. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14The Mono people don't hide behind the patent covenant. They use the same criteria (either go around or find prior art) as they did in the past. In this case there is prior art from the Blender project (you know, that interface all the 3DSM and Maya users called ***** for years with everyone fawning over it now MS have nicked it).
- MutantFruit, on 10/10/2007, -5/+19Just because *you* dont want it doesn't mean *someone* else doesn't want it.
If you don't want it, don't use it. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+11I remember Microsoft stated at the time they released Ribbon that they won't sue anybody for implementing similar interface in other applications, so no danger from this. The decision about open-source ports of Ribbon Interface was made that time.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+9Meh i think MS would let the ribbon be used a bit more often. it THE most innovative User interface move they ever made and allowing a industry wide appilication of this would lead to a more universal interface for many programs. I know this one is on linux but the same could apply for windows programs
Dont know if they asked ms for the rights to use the ribbon but O&O Defrag uses the ribbon interface.
http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/143/untitledcr4.jpg - TheSabre, on 10/10/2007, -0/+7Microsoft does license it royalty-free to developers. There are some stipulationsabout how it can be used though. I don't know what they are but MS does have some type of guidelines that must be followed to use the Ribbon.
- btgoss, on 10/10/2007, -2/+9Yeah... a competent judge... and free milk and cookies... and a nice foot rub...
- omarciddo, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8It's matter of getting used to it. I'll repeat that to those who may have trouble understanding that notion: It takes getting used to. If you're happy with the Office 6.0 - 2003 interface, so be it. I used Office 2007 and *hated it* at first, because everything was radically different. Give it some time. You can't convince me that it takes more mouse clicks to accomplish the same task in Office '07. It takes more mouse clicks *at first* because you don't know where the heck anything is at first. Get past that, and it's infinitely better for me.
- sctwp09, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Use the ***** reply button.
- Pfhor, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Most of the critiques you see about blender's interface have less to do with the UI paradigm they use, and more to do the fact that it is designed to make use of hot-keys as the prefered method of use, not the GUI.
- unknown32, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7I hate cluttered toolbars, BOOO. Microsoft does this for the people who cannot remember keyboard shortcuts or how to add a toolbar.
I vote for clean and no with this interface. - tehkain, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6http://www.justphotos.de/pic/screenshots/blender_screen2_gr.jpg
Or MS 'copies' free software? This 'copies' ***** is retarded because ideas grow and where would any gui be without the one before(and ASCII GUIs before that)? No one copies anyone - knowledge needs to be progressive. - subliminalurge, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5The problem is with the user who has been told exactly that at least a dozen times, yet will still ask me where the "print" option went the next time he needs to use it.
This person knew the old interface, and can barely function in the new one. Doesn't exactly sound more intuitive to me. - Ramble, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5The thing is while the ribbon is awesome it's really only designed for programs that have lots of complex options, like Office. For something like notepad it'd be totally useless.
- subliminalurge, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Exactly. While I was able to figure it out in a very short time, that's my job. I have lots of other users who's job is something completely different, for them a computer is just a tool that they use for a few aspects of their job.
For many years they have all known that "Print" was under the "File" menu. Now it's under a circle in the corner that doesn't really give any obvious "click me" cues to the average user. When these users get frustrated and ask me "Why did they change it?", I don't really have a good answer to give them.
For now, most of my users are back on 2K3, which they are far more productive in. I'm sure the day will come when there is a compelling reason to upgrade them, but at the moment I'm not seeing one. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3GPL demands source code, i.e. the implementation. You are free to reimplement as much as you want. Take the Gnu coreutils, you can reimplement them feature by feature if you want and do whatever you want with the code.
The point is patents are a monopoly, copyright is only a monopoly on the work you have done. Patents steal the ability of others to implement the same feature, copyright only refers to the single implementation. I have no problem with copyright as such (though I prefer Free software) but patents are an abomination in most cases. - TubaTechno, on 10/10/2007, -3/+6What? This tells me right now that you have NEVER used the ribbon in Office 2007. It actually SHORTENS the number of mouse clicks you idiot.
- jbus, on 10/10/2007, -22/+25Thank for the effort Mr. random Mono developer... But that "visually attractive" feature is neither wanted nor needed.
- TubaTechno, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4That's not 5 mouse clicks, that's just 2. Also, you do realize that you can customize the "Quick Access Toolbar" at the top which already has the save button, right?
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Please no. Right now I'm happy that those applications work on accepted and well understood principles that don't hide common usage functionality to ease access to a function I might use once a week.
- MeneerR, on 10/10/2007, -3/+6You can't patent interfaces. Seriously. There have been 500+ precendents were a patent did not hold because it was only interface related. It's like patent 'can i help you' when interacting with a customer in a shop. You can not patent bussniss ideas. Period. There are ZERO successfull cases.
And if you could, Microsoft would be owing a whole lot of money to Apple. (well, apple bought the rights to actually use the whole window+interface+mouse+pointer .. the WIMP. ) - stalefries, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Because neither uses Mono.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2It also allows native image compilation if needed. Frankly JIT is better than direct compilation since it avoids the lowest common denominator type scenario that precompiled binaries always break down to. We've only recently got Linux distros to start shipping i686 binaries. I want my SSSE3 to work damn it and bytecode allows this.
Also, most of the overhead of interpretation is removed in bytecode. You have already parsed the source code and the bytecode compiler makes all sorts of optimisation steps before it goes through the final stage via JIT.
Really the difference will be made when they figure out how to make a native image which doesn't destroy all possibility of run time optimisation. Then if the Java guys can actually get off their arses and implement their own native image option then it will surpass plain native simply because it can do things that simply aren't easily possible in static, native and unmanaged environments.
Algorithms are far and away the most important factor in efficiency. There are, quite simply, a whole array of efficient algorithms that can only work properly via this model and not at via traditional methods. The problem right now is implementations are still comparatively young. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3They have said that their offer doesn't extend to competitors. Luckily their opinion isn't relevant since they didn't invent the Ribbon.
- obiyoda, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5But i thought blenders interface was the worst! Who would want to copy that.
- spoulson, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4As an opponent to the ribbon, I often thought that maybe I just need to learn to like it. The underlying problems for me are: 1) They reorganized my button layouts. 2) I can't use the familiar dropdown menus anymore, which were always the fallback. 3) keyboard shortcuts? 4) the ribbon is honkin' huge!
So, the advantage is... some of the less often used options are less accentuated or hidden behind things. It's a lot more work to use. I didn't have a problem with the old toolbars. They gave you more than enough customizability with them. - subliminalurge, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2"I've told users to just think of the Orb as the File menu. It pretty much has all of the common tasks that were in the File menu."
This is what I'm asking. What is the benefit, then, of making it an orb rather than keeping the file menu that users are familiar and comfortable with?
I'm not trying to argue here, I honestly don't see the benefit and would love it if somebody would enlighten me. There are obviously many people here who love the new interface, surely one of them can explain this. - Stonekeeper, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Dude, I'm not spreading FUD. I hope mono does well. It's just that mono aims to copy what MS has done, and as such, will have to deal with MS accordingly.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3that is just gross
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Office 2007 was the only office i ever paid for. The Ribbon is good. Its functional and Logical and eye please to boot.
- daftman, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Someone else definitely don't want it unless they like being sued by Microsoft. This fits nicely into Microsoft tactic doesn't it?
Embrace: allow Novel and Gnome to use Mono as default
Extend: Make new features that is patent-loaded and push it into the Linux market.
Extinguish: Sue, sue, sue until everyone too scared to use Linux - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4No most FOSS people are happy that we cannot own ideas morally. It's the proprietary sector that believes they can.
Seemingly MS are on a big campaign to steal as many people's ideas as they can again (meaning taking somebody else's work and getting a patent on it). It isn't just the Blender UI they're trying to nick, recently they tried to patent concepts BlueJ have utilised for years and backtracked after there was outrage over it and the fact the lead developer said directly that they copied BlueJ. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2They haven't actually got the patent yet in any case.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4dude, when MS released Office with Ribbon interface there was a lot of debate around whether open source implementations could exist, and MS said they won't sue anyone for copying Ribbon. It's bad for them to sue, because they want Ribbon to be everywhere, so that people actually get used to this future interface and be able to use MS products easier (ie. with less training).
- geminitojanus, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Glib, however, will compile and build on anything with a reasonable C compiler, making it both machine and operating system agnostic, the key for creating truly portable software. Furthermore, because Vala works with Glib and Gobject (and not necessarily Gtk if you don't want it to), it can be used to quickly write applications to run on any platform out there. Even the KDE boys have Glib and its constituents installed; it's one of the most Desktop Neutral components out there.
"Compilation to C" is an age-old way of bootstrapping Object Oriented languages because it offers extreme speed with the tradeoff of taking a bit longer to compile. Several different languages are implemented this way; Ocaml compilers often are meta-compilers (though a good part of the time Ocaml is also JIT compiled or bytecode compiled), Haskell is often metacompiled into C using the Glasgow Haskell Compiler, Erlang is often compiled to C first. Bootstrapping C makes sense because for any given architecture, the first compiler ported is almost universally a C compiler, and they usually have received the most attention for optimizations. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Apple would be owing a whole amount of money to Xerox and a host of Lisp Machines that pioneered the GUI. Don't buy the Apple fanboyism, GUI's were a well understood thing long before Apple copied it for their own system.
- bengrine, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1See http://www.clearoffice.com - it has the Ribbon and a spreadsheet in C# .NET 3.0
- phill, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I watched the video and I still don't understand what the Ribbon Interface is?
- xspinkickx, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2I love the ribbon interface (ducks and covers from being flamed). I am a long time linux user, as well as other OSs, but the ribbon interface made the office suite so much better. However that being said, I dunno how I feel about this, I think, mono or novell will be fine, but if say open office uses this, then holy hell they had better be ready to get their ass sued. I really think the wrath of microsoft will come down on this, its sad because ribbon is great, emulate great things, but I feel like this is bait to sue linux users.
- daftman, on 10/10/2007, -4/+5Oh, shut up. You've been whine this same tune over and over and over again. Post something ***** worth while for once.
- Mistuke, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1The keyboard shortcuts can be activated by pressing alt, it'll label them for you then aswell, and the ribbons like the other poster said, can be minimized, that's how i used it, and just use alt to bring them down.
- marx2k, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Where was the ogg video? I didnt see it.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Basically a tabbed toolbar.
- livevil, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1This is what website designs are like.
- init100, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2One of those stipulations is that you cannot use the ribbon interface in an application that competes with any of Microsoft's own applications.
- daftman, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2A lot of companies, especially hospital run their software through Terminal Services on the WAN. 800x600 is the most optimum solution without wasting too much bandwidth. Try to think outside the box. Not everyone outfit 19'' monitors for staffs.
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