What is Digg?Sponsored by Dragon Age: Origins
Can't get enough Dragon Age: Origins? Check out new footage. view!
DragonAge.BioWare.com - EA presents BioWare's new dark fantasy epic Dragon Age: Origins. '9/10' from Game Informer.
43 Comments
- kooft, on 10/12/2007, -2/+42Mono 1.2 was in no way the "first fruits of Microsoft's and Novell's new-found collaboration". First of all, not enough time has passed for there to be any significant contribution by Microsoft. Second, Mono 1.2 had been in the works for quite some time now. Third, in the article even says:
...while it's now possible to place code covered by Microsoft patents into Mono, "we will not integrate such code, as Mono is a community project," de Icaza added.
So how is this a fruit of collaboration?
Marked as inaccurate. - chris9902, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31it's not spam just because you don't understand it.
- paulcooper, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19As a .NET programmer by trade, and Linux enthusiast by passion this is really great news.
The day that i can run Linux servers and develop in VS.NET i will be a happy person.
However, i do have one reservation - how consistent with the 'look and feel' of Linux and OS X will WinForms applications be? - sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Mono's WinForms are drawn to the screen, making them very similar to Java Swing. Swing has a "look-n-feel" solution where it can try to emulate the OS widgets. In Swings case, it's sorta close. Hopefully Mono's WinForms will be able to do this too. Unlike Swing, hopefully the default for WinForms will be to emulate the native environment rather than something odd like Swings "Metal" L&F.
- Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@fatas
Java is definitely loosing its flavor, I love C# and code Java because I have to. - Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Why the hell are Linux users WANTING to use Microsoft applications?!
Oh wait...those same applications are sometimes better than Linux applications. It all makes sense now! Go logic!!"
Actually, Mono is quite useful even without Microsoft at all. The article mentions three applications: Banshee (a music player), F-Spot (a photo-management program), Beagle (a desktop search tool), which are open-source programs written in C# that run on Linux (and *BSD) using Mono.
Some other open-source .NET applications not mentioned in the article: Imendio Blam! (an RSS reader), Last Exit (a frontend to last.fm), Muine (another music player, more minimal than Banshee), and Tomboy (a wiki-like stickynotes program).
"Microsoft applications" are far from the only uses for a .NET implementation on Linux. - kooft, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8You should really check out the Mono FAQ, especially the section about Microsoft (i.e., Microsoft submitted a standard to the ECMA and published materials on .NET then de Icaza used those standards to write Mono):
http://www.mono-project.com/FAQ:_General#Mono_and_Microsoft
I'm no Microsoft advocate, but you don't have to be a fanboy to realize that even Microsoft has good ideas every now and then. You say you will never code one line in Mono? I agree, I don't think anyone actually has, or ever will, code a single line in Mono. Mono isn't a language but a development platform. You should really read the FAQ:
"The Mono Project is an open development initiative sponsored by Novell to develop an open source, UNIX version of the Microsoft .NET development platform. Its objective is to enable UNIX developers to build and deploy cross-platform .NET Applications. The project implements various technologies developed by Microsoft that have now been submitted to the ECMA for standardization."
Who would use Mono in Linux? This article has a, non-comprehensive, list:
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2004/10/18/mono.html
The fact that you can write a cross-platform program in one of a number of languages (C#, VB, Python, etc) and execute it on any platform that has a .NET compatible environment is a good thing, especially considering Microsoft's market penetration and how prolific .NET may become. - OneAndOnlySnob, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8@nullmind: Mono compiles .Net 2.0 code. They are indeed playing catchup with the framework, mostly in the System.Windows arena though. But that's ok, who would use that on Linux when we've got GTK#?
Saying Microsoft is up to .NET 3.0 while Mono is only up to 1.2 and therefore Mono is inferior is kind of like saying IE is up to 7 and Firefox is only up to 2.0, therefore IE is better. Versions between different products simply don't match up like that. - LocalScope, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8
thomasprebble: "Never in the history of this world has there been a phrase been overabused in such idiotic ways (for the sole purpose of trying to "fit in") than "For the Win"."
O RLY? - thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I never wanted to be tied to a Microsoft platform so learning C# was never something high on my priority list but with Mono chugging along becoming more complete every release this might just be a good reason to learn.
- nullmind, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Firstly, I'm not trolling, this is just my opinion.
Microsoft has been crying that .NET is "the answer to Java." They market the framework as a replacement for Java because it's platform-independent and even say "hey, look, we have an ECMA standard!"
Well, let's drop the *****. I like .NET a lot, but it's not platform independent because Microsoft has hardly given anything about the framework to the public, which makes writing a VM for it somewhat difficult.
Mono is good (monodevelop is freaking awesome) but it's only in 1.2, and there are likely bugs and incompatabilities lurking everywhere. Meanwhile, Microsoft already has 2.0 out, 3.0 planned for a post Vista release, and 3.5 fleshed out as well! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_framework#.NET_Framework_3.0)
Mono will continue to do an amazing job catching up, but from the business perspective, businesses will continue to purchase windows machines if .NET is involved. - PolarBearAdmin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I'm sure to be corrected if wrong, the Linux Distributions seem to ship more C# applications than Microsoft.
- Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Also inaccurate because it says Banshee, F-Spot, and Beagle use Windows Forms. They don't; they use GTK#.
- bobmcsmith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"...3.0 planned for a post Vista release..."
Just a minor note, but 3.0 was released this week.
(http://www.netfx3.com) - burke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'm pretty sure tomboy comes standard in ubuntu, and I think beagle may be as well. Not sure about that though.
- Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Oh, btw: Mono has nothing to do with the Linux kernel. Saying that working on Mono will help Microsoft develop proprietary extensions to the kernel is ridiculous.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@ TrueSatan
Sun aren't being good citizens they know they need to spice up Java. Getting it opened source will increase innovation and another wave of interest. Most importantly it is a resource hog on most platforms, by opening it up it esp. on Linux they can get it more integrated to the OS. - mrmorris, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4HalfNakedPappy, are you kidding?
- C# had Enum's from the start, took 9 years for Java to get them - thus the Java lib is cluttered with various type safe and unsafe enum replacements.
- C# was bord with ONE good layout manager and WYSIWUG tool. Took SUN many attempts (BoxLayout, CardLayout, FlowLayout, etc.) but its now in place with GroupLayout and Matisse as a builder.
- C# got generics, so did Java eventually (well sort of anyway)
- C# gets closures, so will Java probably.
- C# has operator overload, in time, so will Java probably (currently the + concat operator for strings is a hack and not a very consistant one, could be used for BigDecimal as well)
- C# will get automatic type inference (LINQ), doubt that is even possible within the JVM.
- C# has extension methods, while Java is a interface lock-in nightmare
Need i continue? - wattz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4
I also mark this as inaccurate. Coming from a Linux/Java development background I rather enjoy C# on Linux/Mono platform. I'm still not thrilled with the backdoor venture between MS and Novell, but i do think it has some merit in helping the Mono Project and maybe MS will see the benefit and open up some more things.
I do believe, however, that MS will never build anything under the GPL but instead use a kinda-of proxy to allow their programs to access the kernel through in order to avoid the GPL. And if Mono is developed, this will give MS a platform of development they are knowledgeable about, to use to develop this "shim" (Shim is an object used between objects, such as a folded piece of paper to keep a table from wobbling -- see an earlier article on digg). - vitriolix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3further, dotnet 3.0 should really be called dotnet 2.1, its the exact same base language and runtime as 2.0, but they have added a few really nice high level libraries on top.
- mrmorris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Very interesting indeed, can SUN revive Java and can Microsoft reach out to the OS community?! Hmm...
- LocalScope, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Oops that wasnt by thomasprebble
Sorry man :) - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2On RTFA carefully, it has inaccuracies, so buried, sorry.
- rstevens, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Microsoft has a long history of investing in competitors when they are down: Borland, Apple, Corel, Novel and others.
Personally, I don't get it. Why wouldn't Microsoft want to port every money-making application to Linux? Are they really afraid that will more than proportionally diminish their Windows profits? If the gaps aren't filled by Microsoft they will be filled by others.
Another comment--Novell, Wall Street's 1980s darling, born in Provo, Utah which more Inc 500 companies have their roots from than any other city in the USA, has been for the most part a black hole for innovation. Many, including Google CEO Eric Schmidt, have tried to improve things, but little can be done in a culture that doesn't live and breath entrepreneurism. I've wondered for years if Schmidt learned from Novell how not to run a company, or did he just see the light when he got to Google--probably both.
Novell, no doubt, has very bright developers though and nice offices, and a great cafeteria. - brucehopkins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I actually blogged on this the other day. I'm glad to see MS working to intergrate better with Mono. Helping Mono catch up to the features in .NET will only help everyone. Developers will benefit the most as the closer these two get then it will be possible to create cross platform versions of .NET applications. Not real good news for Java, but good news for me. http://www.dynamicvb.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryID/73/Default.aspx
- Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You're referring to that Dvorak article the other day, and pretty much repeating exactly what he said.
The thing is, a shim is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for circumventing the GPL. Everyone talks about linking as if linking to GPL code is the specific act that invokes the GPL's redistribution requirements. It isn't. The GPL is a copyright license, and it applies to anything that's a derived work of a GPL program; linking is just one way to create a derived work. If you link some closed-source code indirectly to some GPL code through a shim, and the closed-source code goes and manipulates internal stuff in the GPL code to modify how it works, it's still a derived work of the GPL code even though it doesn't link to it directly, because it's based on specific knowledge of how the GPL code works.
nVidia's and ATI's proprietary video drivers use shims to link into the Linux kernel, and they're already legally iffy. There are debates over whether we should let them do that, but in the end we don't fight them because most people consider support for high-end 3D graphics to be beneficial to Linux on the whole. But if a company like Microsoft were to try to make a proprietary fork of Linux using proprietary extensions and a shim, as Dvorak described, you can be sure there'd be a big lawsuit over it. - wattz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I realize that it doesn't directly effect or have anything to with the kernel, i didn't mean for it to sound like that, i just meant that its a platform that MS can use to write a program that can. But thanks for the brief in sight into the GPL and how derived code can still be 'iffy' even if using the shim, i was wondering about that also
- Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3:) I suspect you are right, Ubuntu 6.10 or rather GNOME 2.16 ships with a few of them.
- Markie1006, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3ECMA != real standard
It's a 'paid-for' standard in that as long as you pay them enough money, they will call it a 'standard'
They tried an end-run around ODF by buying off their Office XML as a 'standard' by this organisation. - Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7Dude, C# FTW!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5Here's the most important thing I ever learned in computer engineering:
Just because you can do something, does not mean you should. - HalfNakedPappy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Hopefully Java will gain favor in the Linux community if it's GPL'd. Mono is not used by corporations because it's not supported by Microsoft. Java is supported by Sun, so it has a more likely chance of being successful on Linux.
Java and C# are both pretty similar, but I'd have to say the tools used to produce Java code are much better and there is more innovation in the open source Java world. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3I already posted this before but Novell - MS partnership is mainly because of the recent moves to open up Java.
- TrueSatan, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3Sorry no...I don't buy that at all. It appears that Sun are being a good citizen as regards the open source community and now intend to offer Java under a fully accepted standard licence (probably GPL) so if Microsoft were really wishing to take part in a similar manner they too would offer code under the GPL or similar licensing rather that by a back-door deal with Novell that appears to me, and many others, more of an attempt to bring as much damage to the open source movement as possible rather than any attempt at co-operation.
- TrueSatan, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3Any self-respecting open source community project will surely do as Mono has done and have no truck with proprietary code...particularly (though not exclusively) that proffered under suspicious circumstances.
Personally I feel that the Linux community is being drawn together (excluding Novell) by the Microsoft tie-in and so it will end up being an unintended "good thing" for Linux after all...in any event it is giving renewed impetus to GPL v3.
BTW I concur...mark as inaccurate story. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2OMG YTTRX R A EXPRIT DIGG DUWN DIGG DUWN@#$%@#$%
- hackmyballs, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2I know mono is the greatest thing after sliced bread but it is tainted by M$ in the sense of having the .NET name attached. I can not, for the sake of my grandchildren, touch with a stick anything coming from redmond no matter how great it is.
I deleted Faux News from my cable box so I don't have to see their ***** while channel surfing. I wish I could do the same to M$, boy I would pay some good money for that.
Til that day, war is on... - hackmyballs, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2Forgive my ignorance, but why oh why (except for academic purposes) would anyone use mono on linux? what are the advantages over other platforms? why being a linux and oss advocate would I use something that has ties to M$ in any sense? Why why why?
I love miguel but he should spend his invaluable time in other really productive projects, he already has fame and money, drop mono and do something really valuable for the world.
I see mono as a dead end, a M$ tool to brag about their platform being portable.
My fingers will never, in my entire life and afterlife, code one line in mono. - frekir, on 10/12/2007, -12/+5I agree.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+1It would be a better world without .NET and java, kill em all +_+
What a desperate move of mS, try to save their *****. - TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -12/+1Logic? You think this is logical?!
"Mono 1.2 enables Linux and Unix users to use Microsoft .NET code and applications."
Why the hell are Linux users WANTING to use Microsoft applications?!
Oh wait...those same applications are sometimes better than Linux applications. It all makes sense now! Go logic!! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -19/+3I caught mono a few years back, had it for like 3 weeks, it sucked...
- subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -25/+8Translated: stop bringing the light of sanity and logic to an issue totally infected with hysteria and illogic.
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is