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Microsoft tax evasion: Get gNewSense preinstalled

fsf.org — Los Alamos Computers is now selling laptops, desktops and servers preinstalled with gNewSense, the fully free GNU/Linux distribution. This is even better than what larger companies like Dell and Lenovo have been offering -- and they are also donating a portion of their sales to the Free Software Foundation.

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johnsu01 7 days ago, made popular 6 days ago

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FreeDeb, on 05/09/2008, -6/+18Finally! I think pre-installed is pretty clutch for the uninitiated. Not that it's actually so hard, but I think it's a mental barrier.
- mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -10/+14Beware No-one buy one of these!
  Using gNewSense is a marketing tactic to make it appear as if all the hardware is completely free with no proprietary firmware needed, when infact the Intel 4965AGN minipci wifi adapter will not work without proprietary firmware. So if it works out of the box then Los Alamos provides the firmware the guys at gNewSense strip out. This is infact almost entirely the same hardware as a Dell M1330 with Ubuntu, except this uses the dirty tactic of pretending its completely free, when it isn't!
  - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -4/+10If you're gonna digg me down prove me wrong
    - cawpin, on 05/09/2008, -7/+1It doesn't say they are free. WTF are you smoking?
      - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -2/+10The whole point of using gNewSense is that it doesn't provide non free firmware, therefore using gNewSense implies it is. Which is in my mind misinformation.
    - scbysnx, on 05/09/2008, -7/+2the operating system is free... thats what it said.. what are you talking about you nutter?
      - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -2/+8If you don't understand the concepts there is no point in explaining, anyway the specification which I was referring to has now been updated and corrected due to my comments, so I must have had a point.
      - DickBreath, on 05/09/2008, -0/+8@scbysnx
        > the operating system is free... thats what it said.. what are you talking about you nutter?
        
        He's talking about Free. As in Freedom. Not "free" as in free pizza. gNewSense is Free as in Freedom. If they put in binary firmware without source code to that firmware, then it is no longer Free as you don't have 100% of the source code.
  - mithrasinvictus, on 05/09/2008, -2/+3As long as the hardware works, that fine with me for now.
    As linux's install base grows, the hardware manufacturers WILL provide open source drivers as it is a cheap way to distinguish themselves from the competition.
    - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -0/+5The specification page has now been updated to state that they wont be including the Intel 4965AGN and will provide an unspecified PCMCIA alternative, It seems that it was just a mistake on their specification page. Although they do not specify that PCMCIA card I have faith that it will have a completely free driver for whichever chipset it uses.
calcnerd256, on 05/09/2008, -12/+16When Joshua Gay asks you to Digg something, you do it.
- lightningjim, on 05/09/2008, -1/+8Right...
  - lightningjim, on 05/09/2008, -4/+4In saying that, I mean that I don't Digg something just because Josh asked to Digg it. I only do it because I agree with it. You know, think for yourself? But yeah, whatever he asks to Digg is usually worth it.
- Fernandou, on 05/09/2008, -8/+2I second that
makosharkattack, on 05/09/2008, -7/+9Awesome news!
- djbon2112, on 05/09/2008, -1/+4Not really. I'm personally interested in seeing Linux as an alternative to Windows on mainstream PCs. I'm not obsessed with making it 100% FOSS. I like what Dell is doing better, if only they'd give it more of a push!
  - daradib, on 05/09/2008, -0/+2But if some people did not compromise for a mix of proprietary and free software, we would never have a GNU/Linux system. It is thanks to the GNU Project and the Linux kernel that we can have a free operating system (though I should not leave out the BSD's and OpenSolaris).
    - djbon2112, on 05/10/2008, -1/+1I agree, but it has (or at least is trying) to grow past them. Just as evolution doesn't just mean just Darwin's theory anymore. I'll very willing, and I know a lot of people are with me, to trade open source for usability and application/driver support from well-known vendors.
      - djbon2112, on 05/10/2008, -1/+1To add: I'm happy the OS is open source, but does every component and external part of that OS really NEED to be open source for 99% of users? If a driver works, why is it such a sin that the source isn't available?
n0odles, on 05/09/2008, -13/+6Yes, Dell & Asus can screw them selves!
- prophetpimp, on 05/09/2008, -1/+8Lenovo on the other hand rocks. Thinkpad T61 pre loaded with Linux is the perfect machine for me.
  - over900000, on 05/09/2008, -0/+2wrong reply
    - gn0stik, on 05/09/2008, -0/+1reply to wrong reply.
TheWindBlows, on 05/09/2008, -6/+28They removed restricted items out of ubuntu meaning good luck doing everyday task easily...

Though this is a good step forward but it may be a bit too radical to work nicely.

Pretty much Ubuntu without Media abilities.
- EricG, on 05/09/2008, -4/+11don't forget no restricted drivers either .. so you can probably kiss compiz 3d desktop goodbye too..
  - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -1/+12The Intel Graphics driver provided has a completely open source driver, unlike the wireless adapter they provide.
- Megatog615, on 05/09/2008, -4/+8Who said you can't just install Ubuntu and remove gNewSense?
  - over900000, on 05/09/2008, -2/+9If you wanted to do that, why buy it from Los Alamos Computers in the first place?
    - Megatog615, on 05/09/2008, -2/+3Because you'd be saving money?
      - over900000, on 05/09/2008, -1/+3Buy it from Dell, better hardware and support.
Hellman109, on 05/09/2008, -7/+20Yes by putting on Windows you add heaps of cost to making a laptop...

Now all you need to do is put your head in the sand and believe that Dell/Sony/HP/etc. put on trial versions from Symantec/Microsoft/trend etc. because they think you might like them, not because they are PAID to put them there.

Most Pcs sold the OS cost is offset by the 'bundle our software and we'll pay you' revenue.
- SealandRes1, on 05/09/2008, -2/+9If more people switch to linux, I am sure many trial version software pre-loaded on windows computers will also make the switch to linux.
  - JQP123, on 05/09/2008, -0/+8Perhaps true but it side steps the point that cost may not be a valid reason for switching.
- PueSi, on 05/10/2008, -0/+2Yeah i don't see what the big deal is, you'll end up needing Windows for something eventually (most users)
- saftaplan, on 05/11/2008, -0/+1I asked Dell Benelux for a refund of my copy of Windows Vista Home Premium that I got with my laptop because I did not agree with the EULA and didn't plan to use Windows, and instantly got it. € 123 in my pocket. That is a heap compared to the total cost of my laptop and yes, I do think that that is worth it.
  Most non-gamers will be satisfied with just Wine if they aren't satisfied with an open source or GNU/linux compatible app, I think.
schestowitz, on 05/09/2008, -18/+13That's a big milestone It's important to support them by buying.
chris9902, on 05/09/2008, -17/+9Los Alamos Computers is super fantastic.

do I get some of the advertisement revenue now? Since this is basically an advert I thought I'd try.
aaron.dunlap, on 05/09/2008, -11/+8fsf ftw!
SealandRes1, on 05/09/2008, -2/+14I thought ubuntu (through Dell) was already free?
- johnsu01, on 05/09/2008, -6/+8Almost. The kernel that Ubuntu distributes has proprietary firmware in it, to make certain hardware drivers work. There are some other issues as well but that's the main one.
  - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -1/+11The intel wireless adapter wont work without propietary firmware, ie Los Alamos are providing it themselves, using gNewSense is a marketing tactic to make it appear more free than a dell, when infact the Dell M1330 is pretty much all the same hardware, see my post further down the page.
- kiput, on 05/09/2008, -2/+4Free as in price, but not completely free as in freedom.
  - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -3/+5this isn't free as in freedom either see my other posts, this is worse because it is a scam
- newwatch51, on 05/10/2008, -0/+1Not quite...
bhalo05, on 05/09/2008, -7/+9Nice!

How much time before they go bankrupt?
- daok, on 05/09/2008, -7/+1The day you will loss your job because something free will replace you maybe
CySailor, on 05/09/2008, -13/+6How to get something on Digg:

1.) Give it a negative Microsot title
2.) Mention "Apple" anywhere in the article

Why not give the article a title pertaining to an open source option PC from Los Alamos... because if you present it as a neagtive MS article it will get on Digg.
- CarzorStelatis, on 05/10/2008, -0/+1The primary reason for buying a system with Linux preinstalled is to avoid paying for an unneeded copy of MS Windows. Installing Linux isn't a big deal - the lack of Windows tax s the main reason for the system, hence the title.
mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -3/+13This laptop uses the Intel 4965AGN minipci wifi adapter, which although has an open source driver, the driver will not work without a non free binary firmware blob, which gNewSense doesn't provide. Therefore Los Alamos are providing this binary blob themselves negating the point in using gNewSense in the first place. You could safely load ubuntu onto this knowing that it is no more free than gNewSense.
Basically this is a sham which uses gNewSense as a gimmick to make it appear as if its the first completely free laptop (excluding bios) when infact it is no more free than a Dell M1330 with ubuntu installed.
Shenanigans!
- johnsu01, on 05/09/2008, -4/+3I think you're looking at the wrong area of the site. In the /gnu section, there are no laptops with any minipci adapters. We're hoping that they'll be able to start selling ones with atheros cards that use the fully free ath5k driver, no firmware required. But your comment as near as I can tell is incorrect. If you can point me to a specific place, I can ask them to fix it, because the goal here is to have no proprietary firmware.
  - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -4/+3http://laclinux.com/gnu/7658-18U there is no way to select a laptop without this adaptor as far as I can see, you may be able to get it preinstalled with gnewsense but you will still be paying for an adaptor which doesn't work, unless they will supply the laptop at the same price and not provide the apadter, in which case you are effectively paying a freedom tax
    - freaktech, on 05/09/2008, -2/+4If you will read actually it says that the intel 4985AGN NIC is removed from the gNewSense systems and a PCMIA replaces it.
      
      Networking
      
      * Networking: Network adapter
      * Wireless LAN Supported: Yes
      (by PCMCIA card only in gNewSense systems)
      * Wireless NIC: Intel Wireless WiFi Link 4965AGN
      (removed from gNewSense systems)
      - mickstephenson, on 05/09/2008, -0/+4That page has been updated as a result of my comment. Notice the ambiguity of which PCMCIA they provide.
      - Kratos76, on 05/10/2008, -0/+3pcmcia replacement though?!! Seriously, who wants one of those old things sticking out of the side, to break off... This is less than ideal. I see the point of free, but seriously.
TotalDouche, on 05/09/2008, -8/+9gNiusance?
- ninetimes, on 05/09/2008, -3/+5My first thought. What kind of marketing genius came up with that name? "New sense" sounds like "nuisance", when said out loud, so how is that a good name for a product (Linux) that has gotten a bad reputation for being difficult to deal with?
  
  (Note that I'm not saying it's difficult to deal with. I'm saying that, because of historical difficulties, it has gotten a reputation for being difficult.)
- bluearyus, on 05/09/2008, -1/+2haha you're getting dugg down by all the gNewSense fanboys XD....wait a sec they exist! All 6 of them?!?!
thehemi, on 05/09/2008, -3/+5Someone should donate LAC a website design newer than 1995.
shanesemler, on 05/09/2008, -2/+15I'm all for Linux getting wider acceptance but who is going to buy a computer with a pointless distro like gNewSense pre-installed? Three maybe 4 people?
Kamujin, on 05/09/2008, -4/+6Burried for trying to hijack the Linux name.

Linux is made up of many contributions. We get it. We don't need to enumerate every contribution to talk about it. The name Linux is not confusing.
et3rnalnigh7, on 05/09/2008, -2/+14Anyone else think the title implied that Microsoft was committing tax invasion?
- et3rnalnigh7, on 05/09/2008, -3/+3lol, typo for the lose.
  - KayIslandDrunk, on 05/09/2008, -0/+2loss?
MMaster23, on 05/09/2008, -2/+11Yay! The 1 billionth Linux distro on the planet .. Tell me .. how is this different from the 999,999,999 other distro's ?
And why is this frontpage news? Pick one distro and stay with it ffs.
sega01, on 05/09/2008, -1/+2I read "Microsoft tax evasion: Get gNewSense p..." from my Digg RSS feed in Firefox. I thought Microsoft was evading taxes by doing something with gNewSense :-S.
TheSabre, on 05/09/2008, -4/+7Isn't it interesting that FSF feels Los Alamos Computers has "fortunately filled the need" to have these preinstalled systems when Los Alamos Computers is donating money to them? They say Dell and Lenovo have done okay but don't offer exactly what people need. If Dell gave a percentage to FSF, would FSF still feel that Dell isn't offering exactly what people need? This seems to be a simple plug for LAC because LAC is giving them money. "Please show your support by buying one of these GREAT PCs! Ignore the fact that we get some of that money."

It all boils down to one thing - use whatever OS you like. I didn't pay any Microsoft tax when I bought my PC. I paid for a propietary piece of software that does the job I need it to do. When it comes to Linux, I prefer Ubuntu because it also does what I need it to do.
- berndtnm, on 05/09/2008, -1/+1The FSF does not say that Dell and Lenovo don't offer what people need. They say that these two vendors are not offering systems with only completely free software installed (FSF stands for free software foundation, after all). I doubt that these free systems are a big seller for LAC, but some people are religious about free software and those can now buy a computer with that kind of software preinstalled... good for them. I think it speaks volumes about LAC that they are donating money to the FSF. Free software would not have gotten as far as it has without people donating their time and money. Some people are even MAKING money on free software, Oh my God!
  
  By the way, if you just want a computer with Ubuntu preinstalled, you can get that from LAC as well.
- johnsu01, on 05/09/2008, -3/+3We wrote about LAC because LAC is selling systems that are preinstalled with an operating system that contains no proprietary software at all. If there are any other examples of this, we would love to let people know about them (which is why we call for other vendors to follow in their footsteps), regardless of whether they are making a financial contribution to the FSF.
- CarzorStelatis, on 05/10/2008, -0/+2They don't mean that every copy of Windows is a "Microsoft tax", that refers to people who have no intention of using WIndows and yet are forced to pay for a copy of it by most computer manufacturers.
  - TheSabre, on 05/10/2008, -0/+1And the same people that have no intention of using Windows have no obligation to buy prebuilt systems. The good majority of people who can use Linux effectively can build their own system as well.
reginaldino, on 05/09/2008, -1/+6gNewSense? Oh dear. They could have chosen something a lot more appropriate.
pyrates, on 05/09/2008, -0/+5and in doing price checks, the same laptop costs more to not come with windows then if it just came with windows.

http://laclinux.com/gnu/Laptop
http://www.superwarehouse.com/Lenovo_ThinkPad_T61_ ...

Why should I buy this again? I can easily just install Ubuntu on there.
- KayIslandDrunk, on 05/09/2008, -0/+2And find someone dumb enough to buy your windows license.... even cheaper.
CarzorStelatis, on 05/09/2008, -0/+4I wouldn't have expected a respected organisation like the FSF to make such a basic mistake as to confuse evasion and avoidance.
Evasion: illegally concealing the fact that one has not paid a tax one is liable to pay. Avoidance: taking steps to ensure that one does not become liable for a particular tax, or minimising one's liability.
What they're talking about (buying a system with Linux preinstalled to avoid paying for a Microsoft OS you aren't going to use) is the latter, and again I'm astounded that the FSF would make such a basic mistake.
- johnsu01, on 05/09/2008, -2/+2 1. To escape; to slip away; -- sometimes with from. "Evading from perils." --Bacon.
  [1913 Webster]
  
  (Also, it's just supposed to be a little funny.)
crownedgriffin, on 05/09/2008, -1/+7gNewSense? Oh good. The distro built on dreams instead of reality. The dream is nice and all, but I like my computers with working video drivers, music and video playback support, and flash.
grimward, on 05/09/2008, -2/+5Article buried for being a stupid cookie cutter "floss is good and MS is bad" article. Using the term "microsoft tax" is just ridiculous linux speak for "I'm a silly bint who has to blame microsoft for everything" .. seriously STFU and get a whitebox PC and do it yourself instead of whining about a company making money.
BuryIt, on 05/09/2008, -0/+2The pricing on this site is a joke. The computers listed cost more than a superior Dell computer, with Windows AND an LCD monitor included. You're better off buying from Dell then donating directly to FSF.org.
bluearyus, on 05/09/2008, -1/+2yay spam -__- *cough* blatant advertising *cough*

1) Nice eye catching headline which is misleading
2) Other more notable companies are already offering mainstream linux distros preinstalled. What's the big deal about "gNewSense" *yawn* ....nothing revolutionary to see here
3) Nice underlying motive to advertise the company because they give the FSF a kickback.
rwald, on 05/09/2008, -1/+2An equation, for those unfamiliar with gNewSense:

gNewSense = Ubuntu - Useful stuff

In particular, gNewSense lacks all proprietary drivers, firmware blobs, codecs, etc. And it includes no built-in way to include them, because if you want to install non-Free things, you're clearly immoral. Seriously, unless you're installing it on a server which doesn't need wireless or accelerated graphics, don't use gNewSense.
dotnetnoob, on 05/09/2008, -1/+3the article read and smell like spam. what a great way to sell Linux! Tell the user to buy from some vendor who donate money to FSF while other vendors doesn't and they are shamed. Isn't this the ***** reason that people move away from windows because pc vendor put ad-ware on their pc. what's the difference between that and FSF endorsement? Using OpenSource as a disguise with flame bait headline to rally up people so you can get money for your organization. why the ***** not just sell the software for a price and give them the source code? ***** SPAM!
ethana2, on 05/10/2008, -0/+2I'm going with Dell, sorry. But hey, the more choice the better. Choice is what it's all about.
I see people complaining about binary drivers here. Oh the horror! You don't get to use drivers your hardware is certified not to need! Whatever shall you do?! You can wipe this for Ubuntu or something anyway, so it's a grand way to avoid wasting your money on an OS you won't use and supporting a company like microsoft.
jay019, on 05/10/2008, -0/+1Yeah, but does it come with an Open BIOS???
CarzorStelatis, on 05/10/2008, -1/+2This is essentially the FSF running an advertorial for a donor. Buried as spam.
jemminger, on 05/11/2008, -1/+2worst name ever. gNuisance?
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Microsoft tax evasion: Get gNewSense preinstalled

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