What is Digg?132 Comments
- justnick, on 10/12/2007, -18/+72If things keep going the way they are going, Linux may very well be what they see in the real world.
- sanford42, on 10/12/2007, -15/+56don't you think they get enough windows everywhere else they go? what's wrong with showing them something different?
- imjustsayin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34Most schools used Apple when I went to school. That never kept me from doing well in a Windows centric world.
I am by no means a Microsoft hater, but being exposed to Linux (or any other OS) is not a bad thing.
Unless these kids live in a bubble, they will get enough exposure to Windows to see them through. - Marthinus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31The thing is when you know Linux you are ready for the real world where things change. Being able to adapt to change is a much better skill than knowing Windows and sticking to it like some dumbed down drone.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -13/+40A critical review of using Microsoft Windows centric applications in academia.
,----[ Quote ]
| Firstly, we have to consider the fact that Microsoft has been
| prosecuted under anti trust laws in the US and action has been enforced
| upon them as a result. Furthermore, in Europe (where I am), the
| European Commission is currently in the process of penalising Microsoft
| on the similar grounds. That being said, if the academic system
| continues to use Microsoft centric teaching methods and resources, they
| are indirectly contributing to the monopolistic business model of
| Microsoft. So from an ethical standpoint, the academic system should
| be trying very hard to use alternative systems and teaching methods in
| order to develop skills in their students which are not dependent on
| the Microsoft environment.
|
| [...]
|
| Teaching someone how to create hypertext markup language documents
| (HTML) for publishing on the world wide web (www), is not the same
| as teaching someone how to use Adobe Dreamweaver. In fact it can be
| argued that using a proprietary suite of applications to teach someone
| HTML is of detriment to their education, since if they are presented
| with the challenge of developing a project without the use of these
| proprietary applications, they will find the task very difficult and
| would need to learn how to use different tools.
|
| [...]
|
| Another problem with this model, is that it stifles innovation. If the
| adults we produce from our educated students are going to be
| discriminated against for not adhering to the Microsoft model (in that,
| they are less likely to gain employment and develop a career) then
| logically the majority of the student population will conform to this
| model in order to secure their future.
`----
http://users.livejournal.com/_paladine_/7968.html - KataLieb, on 10/12/2007, -4/+30Pcgeek101:"As usual, buried story as spam." ***** idiot. One more example of misuse of Bury function. The news is newsworthy, theres nothing spammy in it. The only thing wrong with is that you dont like linux. Buried as "jerk".
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Really skills are transferable. If they need significant retraining to move from a Linux box to Windows then they shouldn't really be anywhere near a computer to begin with. Besides industries target what is taught in schools, not the other way around.
- XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -21/+43Idiot (Pcgamers)
- mcangeli, on 10/12/2007, -6/+28Yea, if that were really the case. Besides, chances are the kids already have enough exposure to MS Windows and windows software (office...) at home. Its good for them to use something new, and its a plus for the School district and tax payers that it's a cheaper, viable solution to the upgrade issue.
If MS didn't require you to buy the latest hardware (look at vista) to run it, its over all cost would be less and you would not be seeing these "INSERTNAMEHERE is migrating to linux" articles. - Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19What if you know both Windows and Linux?
It's kids like these who are diversified and well-rounded who you'll be reporting to in 15 years. - toko123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17MicroSoft everybody uses?
99% of communication in business is done via email.
99% of data entry type jobs are on pre-defined screens.
What do most students do on a computer: research the Internet and type papers.
True there are applications which run only on MS or Apple, but most worth their salt are becoming web-based(platform independent).
Accererated Reader
Follett and most library circulation software
have had web based versions for several years.
Students really don't need proprietary software. It's proprietary software that needs students. - powatom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16Those comments about "The world uses Windows, so the schools should stick to Windows" is nonsense. Most schools lock down the student accounts so the kids can't even use the OS anyway. The most they're likely to touch is Office software, which is more or less the same (between OpenOffice and MS Office) at the level the kids are going to be using them - writing documents and making spreadsheets. OpenOffice and MS Office are similar enough to mean that the skills are transferrable with little more 'adaptation' than learning a very slightly different layout. Why then, should schools have to buy all kinds of licenses, just so the kids can learn, basically, how to type an essay? The only time a kid is likely to use anything specific to a single platform (in school) is when it comes to subjects like engineering or computer science, where there are applications which can be argued to be 'essential' to the subject, and may not be available on anything other than Windows, or Linux (and even this situation is becoming increasingly rare). So, schools end up with the choice: Pay for MS Windows licences to teach students how type an essay, or pay nothing (or at least, much, much less) to teach the kids how to type on Linux?
The real 'point' here, is that it is not the kids the school has to worry about - all they're doing is moving from MS Office to OpenOffice - it is the IT staff, who may need to learn new skillls to do things like managing accounts, support, etc etc. As the article points out, this is the 'problem', not the kid's education. They looked at how much it would cost to improve their services, and saw that Linux was much more reasonable. The few hiccups they've had are nothing compared to the massive pricetag they'd have had to spend upgrading to a newer version of Windows. In any case, these problems, such as creating new user accounts, are quite easily solved, and the only reason they had any problems in the first place is due to a lack of experience with Linux, and this will disappaear as more and more institutions migrate away from MS. - butlershouse, on 10/12/2007, -6/+21Really the world uses windows ? That statement is about as accurate as WMD in Iraq. It feels like its possible but unless you go see for yourself you are only really making a sweeping statement with no real evidence.
- Mofassa, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16I personally dont' see any problem with this. In grade school - well I don't remember what we used in grade school (sk-5), as all I did was play math circus and some typing game. Middle school, my school used mainly macs. Highschool we had pcs. Believe it or not, it is possible for a kid to learn one system, and use another. For the average user - once everything's installed and set up, all systems are the same.
1. Open webbrowser
2. www.freepr0nishere.com
3. fap
Replace that with any other common task. The only thing that say prevents linux from going main stream (my guess), would be that nothing's "official" If you're setting up, there's no toll-free help line for the average user. The OS you use has virtually no impact once you're using it, it's the programs on the OS that matter. And last time I checked, the only programs I used in highschool were MS Office (Open Office), IE (Firefox), and random educational programs that I'm sure exist for the linux world. - mvent2, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15majorfanboy, Linux can actually help teach these kids what kind of potential they can get out of computers. By teaching them in Windows you're setting them up for a lifetime of nothing but "Next" and "Finish". Its much easier to teach Linux to someone who's never used a computer before than it is to a Windows user. The more we can do to teach children about alternatives and inject much needed monopoly-breaking competition back into the desktop OS market the better.
I'll concede about one thing though. They won't learn about certain Windows things like viruses and spyware because they won't experience them first-hand. :) - rodabi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12OSX can't be installed legally on PCs, so i highly doubt they'd go down that route.
- bluewhispey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12I have 30 Suse Linux machines in my English 11 class. My students don't care that they are not Windows machines. Firefox, Star/OpenOffice, GIMP, and Moodle are their main apps. It takes a day or two of using the GUI before they are running at full speed. In the long run, it is saving our school a lot of money. We did run into the logging problems and print server issues, but our tech department got it going.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13No administrating Windows and Linux are like two different languages. These people will not be administrating Linux like they wouldn't with Windows at work. Using them is very similar.
- dimension128, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13@majormauser
I'm slightly confused and, in a weird way flattered to know that I am not part of "the world".
However, even though there are many government's who are no longer a part of the world (including sections of the United States government), I am not surprised at all. This explains why, to me, it seems that many units of authority today seem to be from a different planet. - jdstorer2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12pcgeek101? You all haven't already blocked him?
- GabrielRasdale, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Great to see
- trovoltex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Congratz!
- xbudex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9The problem with the, "The rest of the world uses windows" argument. Desktop linux, OS X and Windows all have a very similar UI. You have a pointer on the screen you move with the mouse. Things are represented as icons that you can click (or double click) to open/run things. You have buttons to minimize, maximize, close, etc. on top of windows. At that high level, the differences are trivial. At the lower levels, things start to get interesting, but students shouldn't be exposed to that. A student shouldn't be able to change any file unless it is in /home/[user] the same as a student should be able to edit any system files in windows.
So the difference is in the applications. Let us look at office vs openoffice as an example. Before the new office, openoffice and office where nearly identical from a UI standpoint. So there wouldn't be any big change when a student goes out into "the real world." As far as the new office goes, most schools cannot afford to buy new copies of office when they already have working copies. So, students would have to learn the UI anyways, so why not save money? - Fritzel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I doubt that there are many kids in america who don't already know how to use windows. In fact, and expecially in the case of ADD and ADHD cases, learning via a unique way can only help hold their attention
- daller, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9And when did you use Linux? Probably never but you did see a screenshot of it once. Get real let ppl use whatever OS they want i use windows, Linux, and OSX they all are grate at diffrent things. That they get linux in to the school means that they will not be totaly brainwashed that there is only one OS like some ppl think.
- EggoTrip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Anyone consider that the perfect way to run Windows is through virtualization through Linux or Mac? If things mess up then you can use a new image before you can say reboot. I applaud that this school district and the truth has been stated many times over here - teaching Linux has the same skills or better skills (its allows more program depth for the people who want it) than windows.
I expect in the next five years that Windows will be sharing the OS market equally with the Linux market (and I expect the Mac OS to run Linux apps natively and be a part of that market). - Gatesophile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7take it from me, it is NOT that hard to switch to Linux when you've been raised on Windows all your life, and I imagine that it wouldn't be THAT hard to switch to Windows if you have been learning Linux all of your life. It takes a little effort, just like everything, but there is a LOT of help out there.
- Gatesophile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7My school runs on all Macs, except for in three classes (Computer Repair, Cisco Networking, and CAD). Even better, is that for the attendance program, they run Virtual PC, to run the attendance program. Why have a Windows program when most of the school uses Macs?!?!
In Computer Repair you have a removable hard drive you can use in the downtime to install Linux if you want.
So, really, I would love more students to have exposure to Linux, and to start them out with knowledge that they have a choice, and are not locked down to one OS for the rest of their lives. - cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@major - "yes the world uses windows I don't need proof ....its reality."
You obviously have nothing to do with engineering or IT. Everyone here knows that Unix or Linux is running about 80% of the world's servers. Furthermore, at my last job, I used Unix for about half the time I was there doing CAD work for the Airbus A380 (Catia V4). Don't tell me the world uses Windows. The world uses whatever gets the job done. - mathmanjeffy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It's also important to note that the difference in interfaces between MS Office 2007 and 2003 is bigger than between OpenOffice and MS Office 2003. If everyone else is expected to make the switch eventually to a new interface, why not students who, for all intents and purposes are much more tech and computer savvy than most business professionals were at their age.
- greatblackowl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@ naio21
From a user's POV (i.e. kids), there is a nominal difference between Windows and Linux UI -- and between these two OSes and Mac OS X, for that matter. Any one who has ever used a windows computer can easily walk up to a Linux box (with a GUI) and run the internet, run a program, etc. For the first 12 or so years of my life, I ONLY used Macs, at school and home (except for an IBM with god-knows-what installed on it, back in 1993 or so), but I'm typing this on a Thinkpad (in windows, but with linux installed, too). I'm not some psychologically repressed nutcase or anything because I used an alternate OS when I was young. - Herolint, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8@Nightfall
I disagree. Learning Windows is like learning to add numbers using a calculator. Learning Linux is like learning the process of adding numbers.
When you get in a situation where you have been trained on a calculator, but you don't have one, you are screwed. When you know the process of adding, you can add on a calculator, in your head, on a piece of paper, using an abacus, on your fingers and toes, etc.
When you learn Linux, you learn how your computer works. When you learn Windows, you learn how Windows works. - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Nightfall:
Agreed. People should be taught as many things as possible to help them later in life. However if it is not possible to have more than one OS in the school's infrastructure, I believe it should be Linux or another Free OS. Reason being that with free software students are encouraged to learn exactly how the computer works. You can learn how office apps work with OpenOffice etc, and other mundane tasks but with Free Software the student is also free to learn how the actual technology works and is encouraged to modify and tweak to get the maximum possible use. - KataLieb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Haha. Ive installed several machines with Linux (Ubuntu) for people who cant even change their desktop background in Windows. And guess what? Theyre happy monkeys using their systems, DESKTOP systems when Ive set it up for them. And I need to give them far less tech support than when they had Windows. It doesnt get viruses or malware, which is the biggest problem with non-technical users who dont understand security. Ive gotten praise from several of them for how "easy and painfree and stable" their systems are now.
And if I do need to install stuff for them, I can easily do it via SSH. Big bonus for the administrating. - ac42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I am computer teacher/tech director at my school, and I have set our machines up to dual-boot Windows XP and Ubuntu this year as a trial run. Vista upgrades are just not going to happen with our technology budget. So far I've used each of them equally, because I still have to teach MS Office (until I can convince TPTB that teaching Open Office would accomplish pretty much the same thing and allow them to learn how to LEARN new things, not just a software app that will be obsolete in a few years). MANY of the kids prefer Ubuntu. First of all, the games are nice, when they are given time to play. They like that it is 'different' and that there is alot more software available, even the educational stuff. They generally prefer it over Windows. Not to mention that Ubuntu runs smoother and faster on these machines than Windows XP. I prefer to expose the kids to as many different OSs and software packages as possible. While I did teach MS Office in the Comp. Apps class, I have also thrown in some Open Office, and it's very easy for them to go back and forth for the most part. The most challenging thing I can think of in switching to Linux COMPLETELY is the faculty and staff. I have to work with too many technophobes and luddites who freak when every icon and every word or button isn't EXACTLY like they expect. My training curve would be high there. But we are considering it.
- Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@naio , "No one is promoted by knowing Linux"
I would guess that quite a number of people are promoted for knowing Linux - you wouldn't hire a Windows expert to manage your Linux servers. - KataLieb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4So what? Why should I do what "everyone else" does?? Be a lemming, dont be creative and especially NEVER do anything thats different from what all the others are doing!
I bet people who have used only Linux, will learn to use also Windows. And like has been said like a million times, most people are already exposed to Windows elsewhere than at school. So what if you learn another OS at school, its just better if you know several systems and arent limited to one (that is not free also).
Thou after using Linux exclusively, Windows is always sooo painful... ;) - 00Dan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5A child who is taught in school to use Microsoft products will only comfortable using Microsoft products. A child who is taught with Linux (or a Mac) will still be exposed to Microsoft, and they will be capable of adapting to any OS they are presented with.
- tkstock, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Even on Welfare, he can AFFORD linux.
- Shadowman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4As a long time Red Hat user I have to say SUSE Linux Enterprise is a great replacement for Windows on the server and desktop. Hopefully RHEL 5 will be as good or better.
I'm surprised that, as of right now, there aren't any "evil Novell" comments here and links to boycottnovell.com. - MasterChi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Would you happen to know how to transfer user accounts from Active Directory into a Linux enviroment easily for future reference incase my boss decides to transfer over? I'd kill myself if i had to add in over 45 thousand accounts one by one :S I'm also curious what route they could have taken to make that user account transfer easier.
- Novagenesis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@tkstock
I dugg ya for making a point... but I think you're wrong for one critical reason.
There's obviously no server or business-centric operating systems there. I have to assume you're referring to thick-client desktop systems. Did my college's 500 unix boxes count as 1, or 500 on that one? They were 500 screens, 500 keyboards, 500 mouses, and one computer. (actually two, ernie and bert, but still).
I don't see Windows Server there, either, though... every business I ever walked into used windows server behind the scenes, on sometimes comparible numbers of systems to their end-user XP systems. Heck, where I work still has a full rack linux, and another full rack VMS.
People are still slamming a california school system for saving over $80,000 dollars that could be used ACTUALLY educating the kids, just because their 100% locked down systems have a linux back-end instead of windows...
If those systems were installed properly with such an intent, the "look and feel" and experience would be 100% identical for the kids. Of course, much of the power (at NO cost of ease of use) would be lost if they were designed to clone windows... - soad2k8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't see why this comes as a supprise to anyone. My school district has been mac-only since I was in Kindergarten and we are supposed to be getting linux PCs soon, too. I don't think that there are many schools out there that DO use Windows (well, judging from around where I live.
- midwinter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My first school had a BBC Micro or two, I had a ZX Spectrum at home. Later I would get a Commodore 64, while my next school had some of these Acorn Archimedes things and a few Apples. We had an Amiga and for a short time an Atari at home. It was high school by the time I got a PC, because my high school had them and I needed them for work. Do I feel like I missed out because I didn't use a single platform the entire time? Think i'm unemployable? Of course not. I think maybe, just maybe, people will manage.
- Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"What a lot of you forget is that not everyone is a computer geek."
Have you not used Linux in the last two years?! For school work like word-processing and web-browsing, Linux is just as usable as Windows. Not only are they similarly easy, they're also quite similar - launching an app in KDE is very similar to in Windows.
Installing stuff is a real bitch in Linux (though I'm sure many would disagree), but that wouldn't affect a student using a locked-down account.
"Otherwise, they should not confuse them with Linux"
Again, you don't seem to know a damn thing about Linux on the desktop - for day-to-day usage, there's nothing technical about it.
Have a go live-booting Mepis or Kubuntu - it's really no harder than Windows. - daftman, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5If he uses Linux he would have the brains to know that it's very much like OpenOffice.
Conversely, the MS Office would freaked out when ask to use OpenOffice.
It is not what you know. It is the skill to learn what you don't know. Ms users lack that. - KataLieb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Because its the truth, but a misguided one. They learn Windows at home, so they get far better skills when they learn to use several systems, and learn to adapt to changing situations. The purpose of learning is to learn to be creative, independently thinking human being. And besides, the world is changing, and in many many places today you will need to use systems other than windows. Thats why they are being dugg down.
Windows wont be here forever, and it wont be the only system. I still remember using OS/2 and boy was it better than win 3.1 ;) - chili555, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6@chris9902
Do they teach capitalization, punctuation, spelling or sentence structure at that college? - tkstock, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3That being said, I would expect the other OS's to gain some ground given the initial horridness of Vista and the recent advances with Ubuntu and other Linux distros.
- SirBotchness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Microsoft licensing is crazy expensive, i don't dressage with this move. Plus if it works, why not go with the cheaper option. It is supported by novell which used to be very big in school servers when i went to junior high.
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