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82 Comments
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24"But then again, SL is contaminated, with all the sex and hardcore liberal politics."
So it's a lot like the rest of the internet then? Shocking.
Any sort of "metaverse" that sees any sort of mass adoption is going to end up looking a lot like today's web: a meeting place for people with fringe beliefs/interests, and full of porn. - radu79, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16There are quite a few MMOs for Linux, maybe they could negociate with one of the developers to get a license, rather than start reimplementing the wheel.
- Ryosen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Second Life requires an incredible amount of computing power and bandwidth because it is very poorly designed and written. For those that don't know, sections of the world are divided in to blocks of land or islands commonly referred to as "sims". Each sim requires a dedicated server. The maximum number of people that a sim can accommodate at any given time is 40. There is no reason, other than poor design, why an entire, dedicated server should not be able to support more than 40 persons.
The client is also a beast. Slow, inefficient rendering that gets bogged down all too easily, even on a higher-end client.
FWIW, I have worked on MMORPG application development. SL can be done much more efficiently.
Games like Unreal Tournament, Quake, Counter Strike, etc, have all shown that there are plenty of people and organizations that are willing to contribute hardware and bandwidth to online games. The bigger issue to consider in a virtual universe is that of economy.
One of the reasons that Second Life is so popular is that its economy can be translated into the real world. Certainly, SL is not unique in the MMO world, so its success cannot be attributed to it being a 3D chat room. The ability to create, buy and sell goods in-world and make some money at it is what drives a lot of people to the game. I believe that creating an economy that can be trusted as secure, spanning multiple servers and, therefore, multiple "sims", would be the greatest challenge.
The rest is just good design, something that we, the open source community, can be very good at. - radu79, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Blender is for making 3D models/animations/renderings, you can't make a quality game with Blender alone.
The good news is that the OSS community has access to a lot of OS libraries, such as SDL, cal3d, OpenAL, OpenGL (not open source, but an open standard), and so on. - santaclaws, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10This should build on top of the idea of solipsis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsis), which attempts to distribute the processing of the world across participant's computers in a p2p manner. Second Life's biggest problem is the grid architecture, where "segments" of the world are hosted on different servers (but only one set of servers per area). If a "segment" gets too popular (i.e. people converge on one area) that server has to handle all of the traffic, which makes it lag like hell. Distribute the processing of that area of the world to all of the client PCs looking at the area, and the problem should be fixed.
- violentvinyl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10The cost of setting up and maintaining the servers is already passed down to Second Life's "land-owners" in the form of tier payments. It's a small gap to go from having these servers set up and maintained by Linden Labs to having them set up and maintained by anyone willing to support one, the smallest hurdle to which is the difference in cost.
- Cappez, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Did you read the actual blog entry?
"I think there’s going to be a need for innovation around the ways we blur the lines between real and virtual worlds, and this is again one of those places that I think the free software community could steal a lead on the proprietary world."
That's what it is about. - seiza, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The title of the story is definitely misleading.
However, if an open-source Second Life is what you want, this is the closest thing to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
It's still in its early stages, but the project's vision surpasses SL, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OSMP, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsis, or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Object_System Croquet is being worked on by some of the founding fathers of personal computing who worked at Xerox PARC. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11Second life already runs GNU/Linux and it has a Linux client (alpha IIRC). I think Mark's ambition is a good one nonetheless.
Why We Need an Open Source Second Life
,----[ Quote ]
| Linden Lab, the company behind Second Life, is very open-source friendly.
| Its computing infrastructure is based on thousands of servers running
| GNU/Linux, Apache, Squid and MySQL.
`----
http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1000133 - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I think it's a great idea... Kind of like a modern day graphical IRC network. It's lots of work but technically the engine is fairly simple -- they could just use something like the Quake engine.
- Ryosen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@CannedCorn
That's funny, in order to get any real measure of enjoyment out of a socially-driven environment, such as Second Life, you actually need to be quite out-going.
Posting ranting, baseless drivel on a website.... ehhhhhh, not so much. - slugicide, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7There's free and there's free...
- jetsetter, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8The point of this entry is not to talk about open sourcing second life. The title is misleading.
- Aninhumer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I know it's not quite the same as second life, but as an open mmorpg Planeshift is coming along nicely. It's nowhere near finished, but I think it would be a good base, and with shuttleworth's money behind it it could get much better.
- dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Are you some kind of conduct nazi? You can't stand it when people do something you don't feel comfortable with or understand? Mine your own business please and in the future apply some basic decency in the form of respect or tolerance.
- moose_diggs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I think some people dont get it... you arent shelling out REAL bucks for virtual land.. Think of it in terms of RENTING server space when you pay your tier. Your little piece of land is hosted on a server 24/7/365. This costs $$$$ There are many MMO's charging monthly fees and all they do is provide a place for you to play your character. Second Life charges you NOTHING if you wish to just play your character in the SL world. The open source question...I think it will be very difficult for independent clients to be supported by the main grid.. there are so many variables , although SL is the very open source friendly when it come down to programming within Linden Scripting guidelines. There are TONS of talented creators of quality content all over SL. I just think it will be some time before the game can be fully O S .
- Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Normal is boring. Loons are fun especially virtual loons since they can not hurt you :-)
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4So, as an open-sourced community project how would this be hosted, exactly?
The hardware needs of SL are pretty intensive. Something on the order of 1 server / 15 active users. Inter-server communication bandwidth is also not-trivial. Every time you move between servers, everything you own is copied. On a lan, this is manageable. On the net... somewhat less so.
It'd be a great trick... but very hard to kickstart without large funding - nedzalife, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think what Mark was getting at was not the fact that the programs that emerse people into virtual worlds need to be made available for use by the open source community (Linux / GNU users, etc), but rather that a virtual world be created that is GNU / open source, so that the interactions between the virtual world and the real world could be built and developed by the open source community, rather than a single company looking to solely acquire capital gain from the venture.
- seiza, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Some aspects of Second Life may be free as in beer, but none of it is free as in free speech or freedom.
The Croquet Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project is.
The Croquet Project is peer to peer, completely open-source, and way more flexible than Second Life or anything else. With Second Life, you have to pay to build land. With Croquet, you don't have to pay anything to build an entire world. - MisterKen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"My girlfriend is in advertising and her agency is exploring Second Life as a place to put online advertising."
Crap, not another one..I met with a guy from a competing agency and they are going so far as to create their own island on SL and show advertisers how hip they are in the hopes of landing accounts. I think the days of SL being hip are counting down to zero right now...
Some old fart at their agency thinks SL is the next MySpace.
Yeah, a haven for perverts and stupid teenagers. - pogfreak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"It's still in its early stages, but the project's vision surpasses X"
LOL if I had a dollar for everytime I read something like that on a gamedev help forum... - aaronbak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3On several occasions Philip Rosedale (CEO of Linden Lab) has announced long term plans to open source Second Life. SL is slowly being opened up.
- akinder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"It's still in its early stages, but the project's vision surpasses X"
Pfft, if I had a dollar every time I heard that from an open source project... - noseeme, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6I think most players of Second Life actually call it "First Life".
The game they refer to as "Second Life" is the one where they have to communicate with "real" people to obtain "real" food, then interface with a "real" toilet to make "real" poopy.
...P.S.
Dugg you down for saying "mark *****". We aren't seven years old, are we? - jejones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@BassCadet: Ack. Thtpft.
Second Life is not a game. There's no series of bosses to blow away, and there's no end to it. It's like real life; any meaning or goals in it are yours, not those imposed by the software's creators.
If you're looking to blow something's head off, grab your console and knock yourself out. SL isn't like that...thank God. - MindTrigger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Also, Second Life is going to end up getting a HUGE smackdown in the area of intellectual property rights. People are creating and duplicating anything they want from the real world right now, and as soon as it's large enough, Linden Labs will have to crack down, or be sued into oblivion. Streaming music and video will probably kick the whole thing off.
- Snarfy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"The maximum number of people that a sim can accommodate at any given time is 40. There is no reason, other than poor design, why an entire, dedicated server should not be able to support more than 40 persons."
Ironically, you mention Unreal Tournament, yet it has a 32 player limitation on the server. - Tiak, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3But the software itself isn't open source... Which would be the point... The idea is for there to be a non-proprietary widespread system in which the real and virual worlds can interact, not just being able to create content in SL and run it on Linux.
- emfb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The servers are slow because not only do they have to deal with the 40 players movement/interactions and communications but the server also has to stream all the sims data to each client in addition to executing object scripts.
The data consists of sounds, textures, brushes that make up the objects, all updated and changing in realtime. No other games have to deal with this.
SL also allows pretty complex scripting of objects -- and this alone is a HUGE load on the servers.
The worst thing about Second Life is the crass commercialization. Ouside the sandboxes (pure anarchy btw.) there is not much of worth in the SL world. - dagonweb, on 10/12/2007, -13/+15There are many alternatives, but Linden Labs has a head start as big as a whale.
But then again, SL is contaminated, with all the sex and hardcore liberal politics. I am sure many people want to see it fail. Way to many people in there think way to many free thoughts. You cant have that in a new american century. - MindTrigger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't know how many of you have tried Second Life, but you can't really do ***** in there without spending a large monthly fee for owning land. The number of primitives you can use to build things is limited by how much land you own, and even with a decent size plot of land, it's a pathetic amount of prims. Unless, of course, you want to dick around in their sandbox areas...where nothing is permanent and is wiped regularly.
I had fun killing time in there for a couple months, until everyone started sitting on their ass IN THE WORLD playing Tringo. I used to cruise around to all the Tringo games and laugh at all the asshats that had their virtual character, sitting in a virtual chair, playing glorified Bingo. Are you kidding me?
If people weren't playing Tringo, they were either having cyber sex, or standing around in virtual dance clubs chatting. Basically it's a 3D AOL at that point.
Sure there is an awesome creative element to the whole thing, and many people are building amazing things. I found the positives were drowned out by all the negatives, so I closed my account. Yes, much like the web. - meggani, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Second life on OS X is pretty painful, period.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+10Great Idea, since the original Second Life sucks ass. The OS community can make it much better....
- brettbum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4As schestowitz pointed it out its already open source friendly.
Maybe a slightly rephrased question or wish should be that a virtual community modeled on second life might be best if it were not controlled by a company that leases space to the users.
No single country owns the moon nor Antartica, which are both under United Nations jurisdiction, maybe an international virtual world on an open platform is really what would make this type of thing zip. - garg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I actually think that there.com is much better looking and works better too.
SL does have more features though. - merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"It's a small gap to go from having these servers set up and maintained by Linden Labs to having them set up and maintained by anyone willing to support one, the smallest hurdle to which is the difference in cost."
That "small gap" includes huge security issues. There's no guarantee that logging in to a non-linden server wouldn't strip you of all your inventory and linden bucks. Anyone familiar with online FPS games is familiar with what I'm talking about -- when players run the servers, there's no knowing what they'll do to them. - tony134340, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Virtual advertising perhaps. Come to think of it, a game of this nature would be a haven for it. Virtual Coke products, virtual Sony products, etc.
- Vektuz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The SL developers already support open source, and go so far as to endorse an open source library that interfaces with SL. They already are up to primitive rendering.
- Nerys, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3really ? I joined there.com first 3 years ago and joined SL 24 hours later and never ever logged back into there.com. VERY primitive compared to SL - none of my avatars would be possible in there.com not even close (thats the fun of SL to me the avatars and the chatting)
- Tiak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2That's exactly what I first thought of too... If something doesn't exist that you want to exist, you write it yourself, generally a good deal.... Of course snowcrash virtual land costed money as well....
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Blender's Fluid simulation wouldn't work in a 3d game, it need to be 'baked' (precalculated) which is a fairly time consuming process (depending on the resolution and area or liquid) and a mesh is required to specify the solid areas, it would also be fairly pointless, theres no need to simulate fluid for most situations unless a big theme of your game/virtual world would involve a lot of pouring liquid (in which case you can create the 3d fluid effect in blender then export them as an animated model) for simulating a world about the old fluid you would encounter would be lakes and such which don't really do anything or rain which doesn't really need to be that detailed. Drinks would hardly be worth the effort.
Perhapses in the future virtual worlds could be simulated to the same level of realism as the real world and rain would have fluid dynamics etc. just by being made of water and buildings would stand up because the have been nailed together rather than because there vertices's are locked in place.
I think Blender would probably be ok for throwing together quick games but I wouldn't want to use it for a serious gaming engine. - seattle98104, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4second life runs painfully slow on my mac intel core 2 duo 2.0 ghz., there definately needs to be an open source alternative.
- Ryosen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@emfb
I've done a considerable amount of coding in LSL for both amusement and professional development. While it's true that there is a high level of inter-object interaction, it still stands that the interaction itself is needlessly inefficient. Your statement about each person on a sim having to be aware of every object, sound, texture, etc is not accurate, however. SL applies a fair amount of occlusion in determining what information is delivered to what object.
With respect to user-scripted objects, a very large problem with LSL is that it is too easy to write really crappy code. The biggest issues here are inter-object chatter, objects that communicate via the public chat channel (having to parse everything that is said), objects that are needlessly open to the public rathen than being bound to the owner, scripts that use greedy timers, and particle effects that use 1,000 particles when the same exact effect can be achieved with 5. While it would be very easy to prevent a lot of the sloppy scripting issues, the fact is that Linden is not willing to deprecate older objects in favor of better performance.
Lastly, objects in SL are not unique in their need to be aware of their environment. I can assure you that most (if not all) MMOs have this need, as does any open-ended game (e.g. Oblivion). - tagawa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Um, it's actually based on Snow Crash.
- changeworkpie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In the old days of the Internet, people used to pay to host MUDs, MUSHs, and MOOs when these games were difficult to run since the world operated at 1200 baud. There is no reason that those who are really into this idea would not find a way to do this now, or perhaps a few years into the future when the code is quick and machines run slightly faster.
- pozzoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1pog: I thought exactly the same. But then I saw the wikipedia article on croquet. This guys seem to be on something.
I always thought a SL-like game would be perfect for an open community since it solves the main problem in other OS games, that is the lack of content. - Numfar28, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Wow, that's some seriously cool *****. I like it.
- ordminute, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@v3xt0r
20th C 3D mindset? Since when has the perception of 3 dimensions been a 20th C phenomenon? Ever heard of a chap by the name of Euclid?
Given the fact we don't see in '2D', 3D representations are far less contrived. -
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