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- Darkhacker, on 10/26/2008, -2/+34I think we're still 10 years away from being able to get away from the strict "file and folders" metaphor because it's so ingrained and there are compatibility issues. In the future though, we should have...
1. Btrfs or some ZFS-like file system with built in version control and the ability to tag specific revisions. For example, I don't care if I changed added a comma or two. I do care about marking specific drafts or marking which version of the file I sent out in an email, etc.
2. A file structure similar to GoboLinux. This is hotly debated.
http://www.gobolinux.org/?page=at_a_glance
3. File tagging. If I take a picture of my mom while we're on vacation, do I put that in "Vacation Photos" or "Photos of Mom"? With tagging, it would appear in both. Yes, I could do links, but then I have to wonder if it's a soft/hard link and which folder has the original file, etc. - inactive, on 10/25/2008, -6/+28The people who develop GNOME.
- the7thmagus, on 10/25/2008, -1/+23some really interesting UI ideas coming out of the FOSS community. who says we can't innovate?
- HonoredMule, on 10/26/2008, -0/+12I think they're headed in the wrong direction anyway. Usability became the nightmare it now is because of the short-sighted focus on application-centric focus instead of content-centric. It's because of this that people (especially on Linux) know more about the programs they use than the actual data on which they use them.
There is just no feasible way to interact in the form [desktop -> application(s)->{content}] instead of [desktop -> content->{application(s)}] and have any kind of cross-application consistency of content or location. Even if, in the distant future, such a pattern succeeds, it will only create another problem...users will no longer have ANY clue where their content physically resides (yay for cloud computing, moan for privacy, control, and reliability). Good luck getting your files onto a thumb drive.
Besides which, physical directory locations are a simple and easy way to add relational information to content, and to support it with spatial and categorized/graphed relationships. "Files and folders" are actually a pretty damn good paradigm, and one that poses very little to no restrictions on additional supporting paradigms (such as those implemented through metadata and indexing). The REAL failing is in doing too poor a job of putting the content and content management systems (i.e. file browser/manager) at the forefront and making them the most useful way to start any content-centric task (such as with drag-n-drop opening of files, or robust, dynamic contextual information and behavior...one area where I think KDE is really paving the way).
Regarding GoboLinux: That's a pretty sweeping change...I think I'd be more open to a compromise. But really, I'd just be exstatic if the standard filesystem layout would clean up the user directories. Dotfiles are retarded, and I either see none of them or 3 for every other directory present. Far more sensible would be putting that crap in a .appdata directory, and overall (throughout the filesystem) cutting down on the /breadth/ of directory contents. - Corrosionx, on 10/26/2008, -1/+10I'd love to simply being able to write in a command line:
> play all metal tracks - kragil, on 10/26/2008, -0/+7Well .. it was the “_GNOME_ user experience hackfest”. So anything with a “k” in it is out of the question. Even if Nepomuk isn’t really KDE the Gnomes will not adopt it. They will find some nitpick reason that will make it “ooh so not suitable” for Gnome and they will invent their own incompatible implementation. It will suck and will need a reimplementation in after a few years creeping along. ( GnomeVFS -> GIO etc. anyone? )
Novell and Red Hat employees want job security not good solutions. And they basically control freedesktop.org.
Sorry for the rant, but that is way it used to be and I don’t see that changing. - ljubomir, on 10/26/2008, -5/+12KDE4 anyone?
- DreadKnight, on 10/26/2008, -0/+6That would be nice; atm it's damn fustrating when you make a typo.
- inactive, on 10/26/2008, -10/+16GNOME is the reason i use KDE.
- MrOss, on 10/26/2008, -2/+7Time Slider anyone? http://blogs.sun.com/erwann/entry/zfs_on_the_deskt ...
I can't wait for the updated wallpapers coming with the new version of ubuntu. Now it's brown swirl with texture!
Ubuntu might gain popularity if they dumped gnome in favor of KDE and created a way for administrators to remotely suppress user rights on the desktop. The "control you" style administration of client machines is one reason traditional server admin's don't like ubuntu. If there was just a way to disable features on an end users desktop remotely from a central server, adoption would skyrocket. - inactive, on 10/26/2008, -4/+9Would be nice if they could make a "basic" and "advanced" command line, have the basic just do short cuts to long commands in the background how about
>install amrok
Did you mean amarok? install yes/no
>yes
installing....
that would be nice - Aleman360, on 10/26/2008, -1/+5The problem of not being able to find files (for most files) is already solved by indexed search. The search tool just needs to be able to search through content and metadata as well as file names because file names aren't always descriptive. Haven't had a problem finding files for years thanks to search.
- MattBD, on 10/26/2008, -0/+4There is something kind of like that called FISH (short for Friendly Interactive SHell). It should be in most distro's repositories. If you're after something like that, FISH would be worth a try.
- inactive, on 10/26/2008, -2/+6Why would you remove a very commonly-used feature? If you don't like it, don't use it.
- vagarach, on 10/26/2008, -1/+5He meant edit > undo. Not substituting rm with another program.
- GavinZac, on 10/26/2008, -2/+6What are the actions that require command line?
- DreadKnight, on 10/26/2008, -0/+4I agree with you. Like they didn't considered using QT4 for Gnome 3 and they will be daydreaming for the next 10 years basically while making GTK+ 3 reimplementing / duplicating efforts and copying every feature from QT4.
- mahadiga, on 10/26/2008, -0/+4I wish Ubuntu is easy to use as ATM machines and Cell Phones.
I believe xPUD is working on this http://xpud.org/ - Junior612, on 10/26/2008, -0/+4Downloading gobo livecd now. This is something I've been looking for since I tried Mandrake linux in 1999,
- dusanmal, on 10/26/2008, -7/+10"People save an attachment they receive in email, and an hour later have no idea where to find it. ..." - so, some people are careless idiots. Why adapt technology to their level? What's next - OS a blind dog can use?
New methods are good for some purposes, but just because they are new doesn't mean the old paradigms should be abandoned. File and folder system works perfectly well for many purposes. Add to it, not replace it. - andsalvatierra, on 10/26/2008, -0/+3Universal file tagging would be a pretty awesome concept to implement.
Imagine being able to tag different files and folders across different locations and call them up onscreen via a search term or a specific tag. That can help minimize file redundancy, make collecting related and relevant mixed-media files incredibly easy... and to me, that just sounds like an incredible complement to conventional file organization and collection on any file system, methinks. - hamobu, on 10/26/2008, -2/+5Working to improve usability is like running in a race where not only don't you know where the finish line is, but you have no idea which direction to run in. It is a poorly defined objective.
And linux does not really have usability problem, but usability image problem. Linux, windows and Linus are all WIMP, and they are about equally usable. The problem is with publics perception of usability. By having a "Usability Hackfest" you are implicitly conceding that Linux has Usability problems. - b3n87, on 10/26/2008, -1/+4Don't you mean "I couldn't care less"?
- mynameistux, on 10/26/2008, -0/+3yeah, I think it would work, with rhythmbox, you can type an artist, or an album, and it will add that to the play queue, so genre should be easy to implement.
- Junior612, on 10/26/2008, -0/+3*applaud* very coherent thoughts and i find myself agreeing with all your points.
- Joudoki, on 10/26/2008, -1/+3The description was a little misleading to me; They're still going for files and folders, just a different structuring and logical organization of the content that they represent. Yes, this makes much more sense than having anything anywhere with any one program possibly having data in many places.
Content tagging also seems like it would be an excellent idea. - solarwind24, on 10/26/2008, -1/+3That gobolinux tree is really nice.
- jasz, on 10/26/2008, -0/+2funny... the red "thumbs down" works perfectly fine tho...
- MattBD, on 10/26/2008, -1/+3I think Linux is actually now leading the field in desktop innovation in many ways. Not so much with the big distros like Ubuntu, but with smaller ones where people roll their own to implement totally new ideas that more conservative OS vendors would never consider.
gOS is a good example - by concentrating on web apps rather than desktop ones, it's making for an interesting and revolutionary desktop. SymphonyOS is also quite revolutionary. - JQP123, on 10/26/2008, -0/+2"We need to rearchitect the experience of “working with your content”, and we need to do it in a way that will work with the web and shared content as easily as it does locally."
That's a great goal. But for something more immediate and pertinent to the operating system, how about rearchitecting the Linux experience of working with applications. - HonestAbe, on 10/28/2008, -0/+2"But what if you've got so many you categorise them by say /year/place"
That doesn't make any sense. They'd be categorized by /year/date/time and separately categorized by place. You wouldn't combine date with place. The two categorizations are orthogonal, which is why tagging is so powerful in the first place.
If you wanted to view all pictures of the 2007 family reunion, you could just type "2007 family reunion".
"And of course there's the issues of mistyping tags when saving, maybe having to retype tags if saving multiple files, etc..."
Nonsense. You'd have a graphical interface for assigning pre-existing tags to files, and autocomplete for typing them manually. - xaeon, on 10/26/2008, -0/+2One thing that I've been craving for ages is a multiple trailed undo and redo. For example, I do a load of work, undo to a certain point to see how something previously was, then I accidently press another button and wipe my redo. If there were multiple redo trails then you could go down two seperate paths from a certain point, allowing you to choose between the two (or more).
- the7thmagus, on 10/26/2008, -0/+2"how about no command line at all?"
I understand that people fear a command line because of its use of obscure codes and keywords that are frightening for the normal user.
However, a tool that allows you to control your PC by typing in natural language such as "list all folders with photos" would be invaluable - JQP123, on 10/26/2008, -0/+2"Why adapt technology to their level?"
Because you (Open Source) have no other option if you want *them* to use your product.
"What's next - OS a blind dog can use?"
Yes! Build that product, make it freely available and rapidly take over the desktop.
Or continue the debate over which is better, CLI or GUI, and maintain a miniscule market share.
"Add to it, not replace it."
Unless I misunderstood, this is what the article proposed. - GavinZac, on 10/26/2008, -2/+4gnome do?
- MrViklund, on 10/28/2008, -0/+1KDE > Gnome
- HonestAbe, on 10/28/2008, -0/+1I'd rather see innovation in the big distros. Unfortunately we have all these people like the ones commenting on this page, trying to hold everything back in the 90s.
- Corrosionx, on 10/30/2008, -0/+1if it exists and I know it, it's not doing a good enough job of putting it in my face.
- HonoredMule, on 10/29/2008, -0/+1I just realized why people keep offering examples such as yours as to why files and folders are inadequate for file storage, and the short answer is, "you're doing it wrong."
The Events vs Places "problem" is rooted in the assumption that you have to /store/ your content the exact same way you want to /access/ it. But the latter is fundamentally more diverse. Setting aside backup considerations for the moment, you only need each file once, and when it comes to storing that file, there is absolutely going to be only one physical file. If you weren't trying to store your data the same way you might want to access it, there would be no perceived need to store it in two different locations. There is generally nothing to gain but administrative overhead from doing so.
Events and Places are two conflicting top-level *query criterion* (not even really organizational models) whose contents will be heavily overlapping sets. What's more, they're probably both categories into which not every picture will have a clear fit. Far easier to maintain would be some arbitrarily chosen filename for each new import of pictures from a device, or automatically generated directories based on the initial metadata, such as the date taken. As long as all your pictures are kept together in an appropriate top-level directory, all you need are physical locations, so any reasonable and consistent relative path will do. Then, when you want to browse all the pictures you have of a particular Place or from a particular Event, fire up your library software of choice, which is designed to handle those kind of queries using the rich metadata you already have, or can easily specify with little confusion or indecisiveness.
There's a not-so-subtle difference between managing your /files/ and managing your /content/. Inexperienced readers generally spend very little time or attention on the former, but *someone* (or something) HAS TO. But for managing files, there is simply NO alternative for hierarchical storage relationships with the added support of content cross-linking/referencing. I don't imagine that there ever will be. That would be like discovering in math that there is another set of numbers AND that everyday users will want to work with them.
You can organize your /content/ however you wish, but you have to organize the actual storage of that content in a way that physically makes sense. That's just a sad reality that isn't going to go away. Even magical pixie-dust-powered hard drives will need a logical method of identifying specific content, and at least "files and folders" are human-readable. Anything else presents the user with a mandatory subset of what they are allowed to do. - inactive, on 10/26/2008, -3/+4*****, i'd be happy for a simple undo (rename/delete, etc). And maybe a restore from the trash.
- HonoredMule, on 10/26/2008, -1/+2Edit timer expired, leaving that hideous typo "exstatic" (facepalm).
Regarding GoboLinux: That's a pretty sweeping change...I think I'd be more open to a compromise. But really, I'd just be ecstatic if the standard filesystem layout would clean up the user directories. Dotfiles are retarded, and I either see none of them or 3 for every other directory present. Far more sensible would be putting that crap in a .appdata directory, and overall (throughout the filesystem) cutting down on the /breadth/ of directory contents would bring huge benefit. Linux filesystem browsing is destroyed by information overload. - chmcarro, on 10/26/2008, -0/+1If you check my profile, you can see that some of my comments have been dugg up/down, but stay at +1 on the page.
- zoydberg, on 10/26/2008, -1/+2SVN for Writers
http://lifehacker.com/381728/save-every-edit-with- ... - HonestAbe, on 10/28/2008, -0/+1'I understand that people fear a command line because of its use of obscure codes and keywords that are frightening for the normal user.
However, a tool that allows you to control your PC by typing in natural language such as "list all folders with photos" would be invaluable'
That wouldn't be a command line, then. :) That would be a language interface. Command lines don't use language; they use obfuscated shorthand and undiscoverable code. Command lines are a programming interface, not a user interface. - HonestAbe, on 10/28/2008, -0/+1Fish is pretty nice. Could be even better, though.
- svivian, on 10/26/2008, -3/+4Tagging just doesn't work, it results in having to constantly search for files instead of getting simple lists and subgroups. It's more difficult to just "browse" files.
For example, if I've got a bunch of photos categorised by where they were taken, then you need some system to list all available tags. But what if you've got so many you categorise them by say /year/place ? You can end up with so many tags you can't find the ones you want. With folders you'd first get a list of years, open one of those and get a list of places.
And of course there's the issues of mistyping tags when saving, maybe having to retype tags if saving multiple files, etc... - svivian, on 10/26/2008, -2/+3if you want KDE, use Kubuntu
- MrOss, on 10/26/2008, -0/+1I have used kubuntu, that's a great point. I run slackware on all of my linux machines.
http://www.slackware.com - HonestAbe, on 10/28/2008, -0/+1"Ubuntu might gain popularity if they dumped gnome in favor of KDE"
No way. I tried to migrate to KDE-based distros many times, and always ended up back in Windows. Ubuntu converted me to Gnome. -
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