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107 Comments
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -3/+36So, instead of Mepis allowing Ubuntu to do all their development for them (him), they're going to allow Debian to do all their development for them (him). It seems to me that using a distribution that's engineered by a guy who didn't bother to read Ubuntu's cycle release documentation isn't the best thing in the world.
- brickbat, on 10/10/2007, -2/+23Even I knew that and I'm not a developer. He should have done better research.
- capecodcarl, on 10/10/2007, -0/+19Why on Earth would they have believed Ubuntu LTS would release new versions of software instead of just bug fixes? LTS is the equivalent of Debian Stable or, in a similar fashion, Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Security fixes are back-ported to the version of software supported in that version of the distribution to give administrators the confidence that an update isn't going to introduce some new behavior that will break their existing production systems.
- elusive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+18Mark Shuttleworth: "A lot has been said about the fact that Debian is not binary-compatible with Ubuntu. ..."
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth - baalzebub, on 10/10/2007, -8/+25that is about like switching from Chevrolet pickup trucks to GMC pickup trucks, about the only difference is the label, (mostly)...
- Spr0k3t, on 10/10/2007, -0/+14You mean he should have done SOME research.
- allywilson, on 10/10/2007, -3/+14Nice article, explained the reasons why without slandering. Dugg up.
- WildTang3nt, on 10/10/2007, -2/+13No kidding... now I know my chances of ever trying MEPIS are exactly zero.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -3/+14No Ubuntu LTS 6.06 came out before Debian stable 4.0. By about 9 months to be exact. What it is showing is that Ubuntu is contributing to the process even if a few Debian fans like to whine about them.
- PhinnFort, on 10/10/2007, -1/+11I don't think the Mepis boss knows what he's talking about, a lot less is doing. Etch is afaik farther behind when it comes to new and shiny versions of apps than Dapper (I have Etch running on my server here), and he "didn't know" that LTS only meant apps would get security, and not feature, updates? I'm laughing out loud...
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -13/+23Woodford is full of crap. Of course debian is "binary compatable" with ubuntu--and him not knowing so should make everyone nervous.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -9/+18I think they're going to regret in four years from now when Etch will still be Debian's stable version and Ubuntu will release version 11.04, codename Pwning Panda.... My $0.02...
- PhinnFort, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9Well, now he's going to Debian stable, so... I don't think he has a good grip on reality;)
- NihilFist, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12For the Ubuntu trolls: Ubuntu is BASED on Debian.
Now regarding the story: I'm not at all surprised. Debian is known as the most reliable distro out there (as in 99% chance of not crashing). Every package is tested and triple tested, and same goes the kernel modules and etc etc. - MeneerR, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8No Ubuntu is NOT binary compatible with Debian. Woodford is correct about that. However, Ubuntu already has more available binary packages than Debian does. Nobody should care though. The whole idea of the debian package system, is that you can rebuilt with a keypress.
- weizbox, on 10/10/2007, -4/+11That def helped me get in-the-know on they way the Debian and Ubuntu distros work.
"Woodford has also found that although Ubuntu is source compatible with Debian, it is becoming less and less binary compatible with Debian. "This was not obvious over a year ago, but it is very obvious now," he said."
So no more deb repos in Ubuntu? Is anyone doing this right now and have more info on it? Just curious... but not a Ubuntu user so I'm not as familiar on how that all goes. - massysett, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8This MEPIS guy has no clue. First he thinks that LTS was going to get updates other than security and bugfixes. That's the whole POINT of LTS--it's for people who don't want new versions of everything every six months. Then he thinks that Ubuntu comes from Debian experimental when it comes from unstable. Then he says that Ubuntu is "practically a new distro" every six months, as though package updates will change a distro from Ubuntu to SUSE or something. Glad I've never used MEPIS, and now I know I don't even need to think about using it.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Using Ubuntu on my PC and Mepis on my Laptop and i am kinf of glad that he is switching. the dapper repository that mepis depends are horribly outdated. Hell i am still stuck with firefox 2.0.0.3. just manged to get pidgin and the new openoffice to work. If the repositories were up to date it would have made my life a hell of a lot easier.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6I won't digg you down, but I don't agree with what you've said at all. I've used Linux since having to decide between LinuxPPC and MKLinux to run on my new Apple Powermac 7500. In those days you had to actually edit the contents of a Mac's boot PROM by hand to get it to boot either. Today I use Ubuntu, and I like it quite a lot. Back in "the day" of transferring files from MKLinux to NeXTStep with uucp over a three foot serial cable, we all wanted something easier. Now it's here, and the only people I hear complaining are the newbies who WANT Linux to be hard so that they can impress their friends.
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6True, you don't have to type nearly as much in Ubuntu.
- WildTang3nt, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Deb repos still work.. just that more and more packages found in the Ubuntu repos won't install correctly on Debian, or vice-versa.
- sacherjj, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I'm guessing it was a joke about Ubuntu==Linux, Linux==Ubuntu slant on Digg.
- gravityboy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4No, but Debian does have a very large group of users to test packages in both unstable and testing so that the bugs do get caught quite often. Bugs are frequently forwarded upstream, and patches for bugs from upstream are regularly cherry-picked back in to the distro to deal with those bugs. It's also got relatively stringent criteria for allowing a package to migrate to a releaseable state when compared with other distros. None of this is perfect, but Debian's QA process is widely regarded as the best that the Free Software world has to offer, and for good reason.
Also, as per your second point, nothing makes the packager a complete dictator. Any decision by the maintainer may be brought before the technical committee for review, and they have the power to override any maintainer's decision on their package. In addition, all packages of any real note are team-maintained these days, from the kernel through gnome and kde. This weakens the power of the individual maintainer and gives you the benefit of not needing to convince the jerk. You can also get any other Debian developer to do a non-maintainer upload to fix really important bugs. So there's avenues available to you if you disagree with the maintainer. Again, the process isn't perfect, but it's nowhere near a "Big big big problem" any more than having Linus as lead maintainer of the kernel is a "Big big big problem". - NihilFist, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5If that wasn't a joke... it means you're completely ignorant.
- MeneerR, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Although I can imagine why he wanted to use Ubuntu as a base, it was sort of silly. Debian != MEPIS. Mepis meant Debian + polish for the desktop. Guess what Ubuntu's slogan is?
So they were now importing polish .. what to add to make it unique? This is MEPIS problem.. - itomato, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I can't blame Mepis. If you want to build something highly customized, you don't want a highly customized platform to start with. Their goals may divulge from your own to the degree that you cannot feasibly account for the change in a practical, robust fashion.
If you're creating a customized distribution, things are much more straightforward if you're "close to the bone". - jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Uhh...I've NEVER had a problem with apt/packages that i haven't been able to fix by either downloading the old version of the package from the web and force installing it with dpkg or doing a quick: apt-get -f install
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Actually Dapper and Etch share pretty much the same applications. Etch chose Gnome 2.14 which also happens to be the version Dapper uses. No Debian fan will admit it but Debian stable looks very much like Ubuntu LTS (obviously Ubuntu has a narrower range of packages).
The real issue is long term sustainability. Ubuntu does a lot of experimental stuff (changing the init system etc). While Canonical may have the resources to pull this off, Mepis does not. - jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4All you need is the netinstall CD (which is about 150MB and it downloads all the latest packages from the web...which are about another 500MB if you choose desktop environment) or if you don't want to/can't do a netinstall, all you really need is the first CD for a base system + gnome...The reason Debian is 3 DVD's or like 12 CD's is because on those is every single package in the default apt repos...They're only useful if you know you don't have a decent internet connection to download the stuff you need from the repos.
- jdong, on 10/10/2007, -1/+5that's what she said
- weizbox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4thats why you add a '-p' on the and of your emerge string. It lets you know what needs to be emerged in order to get everything up to date, and if there are any issues you need to deal with before the upgrade takes place. Generally this can b as simple as enabling another use-flag on a package, but it should tell you everything.
Hope that helps :) - hollywoodcole, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4I use Gentoo and I would never say upgrading on a Gentoo box is so easy to put down another package manager. In Gentoo, you have to wait to compile and then come to find out a dep is needed.
- MeneerR, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7Yet lots of them are horribly broken. Do not expect or claim that Debian can do magic.
1. Programs like KDE, Gnome, Rhythmbox contain lots of KNOWN bugs even in their stable releases. Debian doesn't magically fix those. Debian fixes bugs that are due to packaging or building. They will apply patches (if the maintainer is not an *****) from other debian-users, which will be sent upstream (sometimes). But like 99% of the known source-level bugs in upstream packages exist in Debian as well.
2. Debian is filled with narcistic package dictators that either refuse to upgrade packages, refuse to make it work with some program that they don't like, etc. If person X controls package Y, there is not a person in the world going to make him do something he doesn't want. Big big big problem with Debian. The whole idea of one dictator per package is WRONG.
3. Debian changes packages themselves sometimes, this stuff will not be applied upstream. Often this adds new bugs. These types of bugs are likely fixes in stable releases. (because the author of that code is the one fixing it!)
In other words: Debian stable is not magically more stable than any other distro that only uses stable upstream version. Stable in this case just means: LESS bugs. LESS features. LESS hardware support.
Its all about choice. Please do not act like Debian fixes all bugs in all opensource package.. - TechCF, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5Well, Ubuntu uses most of the unstable/untested packages from Debian
- Jorophose, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Ubuntu isn't /that/ bloated. Start-up may be slow, but it's not horribly unbearable. The only real advantage to debian is I guess stability. Start up time, like you mentioned, is pretty darn fast too. And not to mention they have /all/ the latest software, rivalling Gentoo & Sabayon.
But Woodford's really a dumbass for thinking new stuff would be introduced in Ubuntu LTS releases... That and the fact that his distro blows; it's big, (Even the "lite" version!) it's got a price tag (10$ according to dw) for something Ubuntu & Debian give for free, and I never really noticed improvements compared to Ubuntu... - weizbox, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5So... based on elusive's link leading to mark shuttleworth's comments about the topic.... your full of crap?
What makes me nervous is you getting +8 diggs when your so clearly wrong... yet aggressively state it as fact. - chris86wm, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3What does this guy add to the distribution he builds on besides a new set of icons and a different name?
- CatalystGhost, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4You read in too deeply. He's just an idiot.
- angrykeyboarder, on 10/10/2007, -3/+6Well that didn't last long...
- mahdaeng, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4My first experience with Linux was Red Hat. When that didn't perform as well as I wanted on an old box I had, I switched to Debian. Debian was certainly less flashy than Red Hat (as well as many other distros out there), but it ran like a champ on my old box. Ever since, I've always used Debian or distros that are based on Debian (Knoppix, Kanotix, Ubuntu) and have been thoroughly satisfied. But then again, I like simplicity and minimalism.
- weizbox, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Why are people continuing to digg up things that are wrong? won't this only hurt peoples understanding of what is going on and what can/can not be done when dealing with ubuntu and debian repos/packages?
Anyone who dugg him up care to comment? Did any of you bother to read what Shuttleworth has said? I've managed to find a bunch of of other sources online that back this up as well, and makes perfect sense if you bother to read up on it. - nofrak1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+5Hey, no harm done, right? You pick the distro that fit's your need. Choice is what it's all about - it's open source, baby!
- notantspants, on 10/10/2007, -3/+6@MikeCampbell
glad to see people making comments without having a clue what they're talking about. you're too funny! - jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Yes...except Ubuntu doesn't enter most of their fixes to the package bugs back to Unstable...So really they're looking out for themselves and don't really care about screwing Debian users along the way.
- TheSeeker11, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2If you're after a distro based on Debian Unstable, check out sidux (my distro of choice). http://sidux.com
- asadajk, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Debian is the base-stable as ever.welcome mepis back!
- jdhore1, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yeah, basically when a new release of Ubuntu comes out, they just pull all the packages in from Debian Sid/Unstable and then add their stuff (their kernel, themes, restricted modules, upstart, etc)
- adam.skinner, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4So this guy is like "You know, I'm not down with getting security updates every 6 months with LTS Ubuntu. I think I'd rather go back to Debian, where they update every 2 years or something".
Honestly this doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. If he wanted application updates, why not just use the more up to date repositories for Ubuntu? - MeneerR, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Yes, i agree. The debian community and proccess are perhaps the most successfull (besides the linux kernel) in the opensource world. I just have a problem with the over-exaggerating super-stableness people claim. Interestingly, lots of Ubuntu patches are generally fixing issues that are just a result of stubborn debian developper on a power trip. Its a minority though.
I love debian based distrobutions, but I do not like debian. The reason is that Debian has no focus. Being everything to everyone means it usually isn't perfect for any purpose. Debian based distrobutions often set goals at a higher level than just packaging the whole Free Software world. These higher level goals overrule the wishes from specific package maintainers.
And although I think Linus is still crucial to having the best kernel in the world, his personality and stubberness hurts the kernel development too. The biggest problem facing opensource development is disconnection to what the end-user wants. This is often the result of people at the place of power enforcing their own views. I suppose this a price to be paid, since most of them work for free.
If you look at the most successfull projects in a commercial way, you find stuff like Firefox and Ubuntu. Interestingly here, the developpers don't decide the direction of the project. There are different people responsible to setting up higher level goals from an end-user pespective. Ubuntu and Firefox both have a large number of volunteers that are part of the decision making proccess are NOT DEVELOPERS. And they do not have solitairy decision making power by default. Which is the exact opposite of the Debian process. - lowbot, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Ubuntu users are also elitists. Read these boards and see what they have to say about other OSs.
The problem isnt the product. Its the people. As long as people keep defining themselves with technology and getting upset over what kind of computer others are using, you'll see stuff like this. -
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