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173 Comments
- Dudlington, on 10/12/2007, -0/+57I am by no means a Linux buff, but I thought part of the benefit is that you could strip out anything you don't need from the kernel and recompile it. Since they plan to mass produce identical machines, I would think they could trim it down. After all I'm sure some people here remember seeing this "matchbox" sized linux server.
http://www.litewav.com/cool.shtml ... scroll down a bit - TheTankengine, on 10/12/2007, -37/+83You freaking guy? What does that even mean?
- Qwertie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+46A pedal could potentially charge the battery much more quickly--people's legs are simply stronger. I wish they would design a charger for people like me that have restless leg syndrome. I constantly bounce my leg up and down when I sit, which would make a perfect power source--but would require a special pedal design to harness.
- archanoid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+34You are correct. Linux is easily configurable to need less than 1MB to load and 8MB to run. Using uClibc, busybox, and the like, it is not difficult to get a complete linux system to run well on damn near anything.
This guy is whining about the tendency all software developers have to write software that expands to fill up all usable space. It's the same regardless of platform. At least Linux is configurable enough that you can readily strip out all the ***** you don't need. - eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+30A typical kernel that is compiled with -Os (compile for size) and stripped of unnecessary hardware support is normally about one megabyte or less.
- desiv, on 10/12/2007, -2/+32My complaint, they are getting rid of the crank handle for power, moving to a pedal system on the AC adapter.
I was really looking forward to a hand crank powered PC. Oh well... - comeonpriitk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/
Quote: "DSL is a very versatile 50MB mini desktop oriented Linux distribution." - 9mmCensor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27Linux has bloat... or do some distro's have bloat?
Because Toms Root Boot and DSL are not bloated.
Its easy to roll your own distro for this type of thing. Especially with the standardized hardware. - Talisian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26 It's really surprising that such a project leader would demonstrate such ignorance about the scalability of Linux.
- hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+29As they say, its better to keep your mouth shut and let the world think you are an idiot than to open it and prove it.
- AeonTorpor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27@scotty1024
What the hell are you talking about? Windows XP takes well over 2GB and OpenOffice takes up 220MB. To put that into perspective, Windows Office XP takes up 440MB and Windows Office XP Media Content alone takes up 610MB. - FullMetalMonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17I agree.
They can't call Liunx bloated when there are distros like DSL and Slax! - sundancekid503, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20Am I alone in thinking that this $100 laptop will suck no matter what OS it uses? It's a gadget.
- cavadela, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19Although a lot of this is pushing the OLPC into the future (2007 not 06, $135 not $100, no idea of what type of wireless yet, ....) the main point is that open-source is starting to suffer from bloat. maybe not on the OS side (i don't know much about that) but from applications. OpenOffice has half the features of MSOffice and is bloated already (and sooo slow). Firefox started out as a lean browsing machine but is now the main memory hog on my system. I'm waiting for IE7 to come out with tabbed browsing to switch back.
Open source seems to be CPU/resources greedy just like all other software is and for this case (OLPC) they simply can't do it with the machine specs they are driving. I guess they'll have to spend a big time inside the code taking out all the screen-candy and stuff.
oh, did I mention that my latest printer from HP (HP PSC1400) wanted to install 850MB of drivers and software? I guess MSOffice isn't even that big! - gerkin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Exactly. Linux is just a kernel. The rest of the OS is generally made up of bits and pieces of GNU and other GPL software. RMS -- where are you when you're needed. We need a Batman spotlight or something for you to shine over ill informed netizens.
P.S. (insert your favorite "linux" distro name here) is NOT LINUX. It is a operating system based on a linux kernel. RMS .. please help us all. :P - thecoolestcow, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20I still don't think people realize that the laptops are not for sale to the general public. Statements like "I was really looking forward to a hand crank powered PC" are unwarranted because you'll probably never even see this PC in the U.S.
- Wardvark, on 10/12/2007, -11/+23I am sick of all this dupe crap, life sucks, get over it.
- ByteGuerilla, on 10/12/2007, -13/+25It's 'imminent', you freaking guy!
- Dragular, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17I haven't, and probably won't bother trying to, read the article... but "you freaking guy" is my new favorite phrase. Now I'm going to get back to work, you freaking guy.
- xhost, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Linux is the Kernel... if they were running KDE, then KDE would be the bloat. The linux kernel and say... windowmaker or fluxbox will run on an old computer just fine.
- theantidote, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12I don't think he means it's bloated as in the size of the OS. He means it's bloated as in it doesn't run fast on the OLPC's hardware: "It's not about a weak computer. It's about a thin, slim, trim, fast computer"
I agree that Linux can feel slow at times on my 1Ghz machine. If you think about it he has a point, didn't Linux/Windows feel really fast 10 years ago? But now if you were to install a current OS on that hardware it's really slow. OSs are evolving to meet Moore's Law but when we need something compatible with older systems there's nothing that will run as quickly as it used to. - KenAycock, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11My N-lited version of XP only takes up 350mb after a fresh install, though. It works better than anything else on my old laptops (Sub 300mhz systems with less than 128mb of ram. Wouldn't even work normaly!). I don't know Microsoft shys away from a performance option; it would be a good avenue to pursue.
- c0uchm0nster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@lukes
Yeah I'm sure all the people using a $100 foot-powered laptop will have a multitude of peripherals... well, one at least. More than that and they'd need to borrow a friend's foot for more power. - Apreche, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. My last job was developing software for a fully functioning Linux platform that resided in 16MB of flash. Perhaps he's an idiot trying to install gigantic Redhat with all the bells and whistles and KDE.
- ramsinks.com, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Thats weird.. since linux can fit on a FDD.
Must be a n00b. - lukes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9@thecoolestcow - au contraire, i'm sure you'll eventually be able to get them everywhere once they begin being distributed. especially if they become cool to a niche market. if they had a hand-crank shaft i'd be looking out for one selling on online auctions when they come out. someone who buys or receives a $100 laptop in a (hate the term) 3rd world country would be able to turn around and sell it online for a small profit i'm sure. if there's no way you _should_ have one in nth america, that will make having one something worth paying for to show your friends.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11It's not the Kernel itself that is the cause of all the bloat. It's the desktop environment. Sure embedded linux runs fine on a SOHO router, but that's cutting out the desktop environment completely. Add KDE with a few features and you're gonna lag without some serious customization.
XFCE seems nice for cutting down on the overhead. Put a nice skin on XFCE with XGL on a Slackware distro, and I think you'd really have something. - agimat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"I still don't think people realize that the laptops are not for sale to the general public. Statements like "I was really looking forward to a hand crank powered PC" are unwarranted because you'll probably never even see this PC in the U.S."
I'm so sure we won't see this device being sold even cheaper on ebay.
because that sort of thing just doesn't happen. - sLydE, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I've run gentoo with xfce on slower hardware, at perfectly acceptable speeds. A 400mhz p2 w/ 128mb of ram ran just fine for everyday tasks.
- charlesjillian, on 10/12/2007, -19/+27Yeah you freaking guy!
- funderbolt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9@cavadela
"OpenOffice has half the features of MSOffice and is bloated already (and sooo slow). Firefox started out as a lean browsing machine but is now the main memory hog on my system. I'm waiting for IE7 to come out with tabbed browsing to switch back."
I agree with you, but there are alternatives to the bloatware.
OpenOffice
-- word processor - Abiword nimble wordprocessor
-- presentation - s5 software uses "S5 is a slide show format based entirely on XHTML, CSS, and JavaScript", not WYSIWYG :-(
Browsers
-- there are many other web browsers, KHTML might be faster (I've not run it in eons.)
Damn Small Linux has a good list of applications for a starting point http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/applications.html
I agree with another poster that they should just simply use Damn Small Linux. It may require some translation effort, but that what you get with FOSS! - xqb4dpx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8and, isnt VectorLinux real fast for old hardware (including sucky hardware)
- HiddenLYNX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Bloated???
maybe Redhat, but what about DSL? that can fit on a jump drive or the Mini Cds - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7bare.i is NOT bloated
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yeah, I downloaded HP drivers recently too. They apparently combine every (or most) printer/combo driver in one download, even though they make you choose your printer. Grrr. It's just rediculously huge.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Case in Point: Take a look at Damn Small Linux. Its very "minimal", yet very functional, while running well on computers of very low spec. Linux should still remain the definate choice of OS for this project, it just needs a little trimming down.
- Guspaz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9My linksys router cost about $40 US, and runs Linux just fine. Custom firmware using busybox, ssh server, etc.
I understand that some people run the Asterisk VoIP server on the thing.
Anyhow, $100 laptop should have no problem with embedded linux. - Jams, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7"You ***** Guy" was a line from that Kerpal prank call "Your Daughter Kick My Dog!" perhaps its a bastardisation?
- LouisC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7My favorite mini-distro has been Vector Linux (http://www.vectorlinux.com/) for a long time... really small. Runs on an old piece-of-crap laptop my uncle gave me with less than 64 megs of ram and a 266 mHz processor. It's slow on that laptop (launching apps is slow, but browsing and chatting is fine), but on the $100 laptop it should do fine.
Gentoo's my favorite all-around distro, though. - metalhed, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10@solarwinds: Heh. Tell that to my 486.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+15What's the point of a pedal charger if you're in a country full of land mines and you had your legs blown off? I bet it won't seem so much more efficient than a hand crank then, will it?
- nannerla, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Mine did too so i just run the standard printer drivers.
- qubitz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Are you kidding? Linux runs great with much less resources. Maybe getting KDE/GNOME to run is a problem, but that's not an issue with Linux.
- VeganG, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Does it matter? You'll never get your hands on one. It's not for you.
Whether it "sucks" or not in comparison to the rest of the world is irrelevant. - el_jefe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@solarwinds
Are you comparing MS-DOS to Bash?
And some of us still use the CLI. I still use mutt as my email client because as far as I am concerned, it can run circles around any GUI client. But then again, I guess I am a "power user". - tegulizard13, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Yup, Linux is pretty much infinitely customizable. It can run on cellphones, cars, planes, desktop computers, laptops, handheld devices, that one RJ-45 module (it was a digg story a while ago, really tiny, really cool). It's probably possible to run Linux on a toaster... idk why one would do that though.
- drizek, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Whats the point of a laptop when you're living in a country where your brain was surgically removed?
- agent_smith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5So, instead of simply admitting his inital proposition is incorrect Negroponte would rather blame an already established product (fedora/redhat) is flawed. I think he should rethink his price point/idea.
- mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I agree. He obviously doesn't even know what he's talking about here, and if I recall correctly, this isn't the first time he's proven it. I also agree that RH isn't the best choice for a project like this, although I have nothing against that distro otherwise. They could easily use Damn Small Linux with extra packages installed or do much the same with Puppy Linux. Vector Linux, stripped of needless drivers, would also work wonderfully for a machine like this. I'm all for the $100 laptop project but I can't help but wish he'd turn it over to someone else. Someone more competent.
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Figures, complete lack of ability to look at the big picture. There is a reason you arn't the project manager. show me a distro that is as responsive as windows and runs on a 500mhz PC..."
Distrowatch.com has about 100 listed that will run in that category, not to mention that there are ways to build linux yourself that will fit into this category. The idea behind Open Source and Linux in general is "choice", and as long as someone is making the right choices, you can run Linux on an 16-bit processor with a meg or so of RAM (yes, even without an MMIO driver), or a cluster computer with 2500 processors and terabytes of RAM. As much as you love Microsoft Windows, there is a very, very narrow operating window in the machines that it supports, and cannot scale past it.
"as soon as you put in a gui and a modern browser in it, it will run like dirt."
Gee, I remember when I was a kid running a remote X11 session on an Alpha machine in the computer lab; that machine had a pretty nice GUI for its era (I think it was CDE, but that was forever ago), and it ran a nice web browser called Lynx exceptionally well. Fast forward a couple of years and I had my own Packard Bell 233MHz machine with 32MB of EDO running Linux and I was running KDE with Netscape on it, and I absolutely loved it. Fast forward to now, and I'm running GNOME with Firefox on an exponentially faster machine (if I'm not on one of my Macs, which runs Safari and Firefox). Software Technology grows and scales with the computers it runs on. A "Modern Web Browser", however you define that, might not run well on a 500MHz machine with 64MB of ram, but it will run, and it'll give millions of people the opportunity to view the Internet, something in which they otherwise might not ever get the chance to do. But then again, a stripped down browser based on Gecko (such as Galleon) could run blazingly fast on these machines, and not incur the weight of XUL, or the weight of supporting Konqueror. So, if you want to keep your eyes closed to the world of choice, that's fine. I'll continue to choose the best broswer around that allows me to do the most amount of work the fastest, and that happens to be Firefox right now.
What you forget to realize is that making a Linux distribution takes /hours/. Not days, not weeks, hours. When you narrow down the hardware you're supporting, the amount of time that's necessary to properly test the system drops dramatically (Which is Apple's entire business model). When you furthermore start looking at software to distribute on the machines, narrowing each of them down by memory requirements becomes even more easy; Firefox will not work in its current state because of the platformability of it; it's too much code for what they're trying to do (provide simple internet access to these children). A browser that's 1/4th the code density and complexity of Firefox will work wonders, and Galleon's the best example I can pull off my head without turning to Google.
"windows has the applications that run on old hardware because windows has been around longer."
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Open Source GUIs predate what you call "Windows" (i.e. 95+) by a decade (hell, have you ever heard of Macintosh?). In fact, MOTIF and other Windowing systems from this era of history still WORK on newer systems, meaning that I could easily get Netscape up and running on my box right now, a webbrowser that is entirely and completely obsolete.
You tunnel head Windows users (sorry for the insult people who aren't absolutely obsessed and/or have to use Windows for a living, I'm just tired of dunderheads like this guy) have to realize that Windows isn't always the answer. Windows is a good operating system, but Windows is nowhere near agile enough for these countries. A computer could be built using 2 ARM7 cores running at 255MHz a piece, and 64MB of RAM (and say 128MB of Flash RAM as a mass storage device, or a 20GB HD, but you've gotta realize the HD might die, which would be a bad thing in a system like this), and run Linux or a BSD, and give these people in the 3rd world access to computers that they would never otherwise have. This system could NOT run Windows; there are no ARM ports for it, nor any of the software that runs on it, and porting Windows and any of its software is going to take a hell of a lot longer than compiling Linux and all of the necessary software that's distributed as source for this platform (yeah, a little work and tweaking might need to be done to make it run on an ARM, but I'd be willing to volunteer my time and part of my wages to do it if my company were going to build these computers for them). Same could be done with a 200MHz G3 processor (and everything necessary to have a desktop computer is already ported to PPC and actively maintained, so it would virtually be a no-work task; ./configure, make).
Linux is Flexibility. Windows is Availability. Mac OS X is Usability. -
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