What is Digg?95 Comments
- lowkey, on 10/12/2007, -15/+29Interesting question, but here's an equally interesting one.......when was the last time that the OpenBSD or OpenSSH projects donated money to support the development of GNU Compiler Collection (GCC)?
Afterall, GCC saves them countless hours of their own development time by not having to create their own compiler from scratch.
If the projects haven't donated, then this is just another case of people wanting to take but not give back to those that they take from.
Hello Mr Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr Kettle. - cheesedog12345, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Why aren't openssh users paying for it? That's a moronic question. It's free software. The first sentence on the openssh homepage says: "OpenSSH is a FREE version of the SSH connectivity tools that technical users of the Internet rely on," with "FREE" not only capitalized, but in bold.
Down at the bottom of the left hand column, after everything else, is a little link that says, "We need donations." That tells me exactly how important donations are to the project (which has been going along fine now for how long? Around 10 years?
Instead of chiding your users for not paying for software that you gave away for free, why not just say, hey guys, we need some money to keep going (works great for wikipedia)? I have a feeling there is much more going on here, namely, that de Raadt is frustrated that his OpenBSD project never achieved the kind of success that Linux did. That's mainly a result of the license he chose -- if OpenBSD would have gone GPL (which *is* possible with the BSD license), it had every other thing to its advantage against Linux. Philosophy/religion got in the way. It's too bad, but that's how the cookie crumbled. - altjason, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12First, most people don't pay for BSD/GPL-licensed software. So ragging on people's conscious' is not a great marketing blurb.
Second, OpenBSD is not OpenSSH. The two projects should be managed by seperate entities. Good companies and projects are hesitant to hand over cash because this situation is ambiguous. "Save OpenBSD! We manage OpenSSH." Exactly where is the money going? What if I only care about OpenSSH. Apparently it's married to OpenBSD. Not the best arrangement for seeking donations.
Incidentally, I respect both codebases, but for a while now I only use OpenSSH (which is probably where most people are with this). - valour, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18That's ridiculous. The article calls for for-profit corporations to donate to OpenSSH, which they all rely on to make money. OpenBSD doesn't make any money, and is currently operating at a $20,000 per year loss.
To further illustrate the silliness of your comment, RED HAT maintains GCC and spends money to do it, but doesn't give one dime to OpenSSH. There are other compilers out there -- YaCC and ICC to name two -- but there are no other free-of-charge or free-of-restriction SSH client/server packages. - dognose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I paid 1000 times the asking price just to help them out.
- chad78, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10I could care less if OpenBSD goes belly up and takes OpenSSH with them.
That's life. That's capitalism. That's "survival of the fittest." That's supply and demand at work.
Guess what - OpenSSH is an *OPEN SOURCE PROJECT*! That means literally *ANYONE* could pick up where the potentially dead project leaves off.
From their license page, ( http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/usr.bin/ssh/LICENCE?rev=HEAD ):
First, we will summarize and say that all components are under a BSD license, or a license more free than that.
So OpenSSH dies and ASSH arises from the ashes - (that's Another SSH) - or YASSH (Yet Another SSH) - or FreeSSH, or DogSSH, or MandrakeSSH, or IBMSSH, or whatever.
It's the circle of life, way of the jungle, Darwinian way "it's supposed to be".
Welcome to life. Enjoy it while it last. - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@Valour
Here is one openssh alternative: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~nisse/lsh/
I believe that Red Hat, IBM, Sun etc _should_ donate to the OpenSSH project but Theo should also setup an OpenSSH and OpenBSD not for profit foundations to which the donation checks can be mailed to.
I dont think corporations would be as willing to send a check made out to Theo compared to The OpenSSH foundation if it existed. - odysseus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Sanity made an excellent post on this topic over on /., where he notes the more likely reason the grant was withdrawn:
http://bsd.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=61192&cid=5757458 - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Nice.. OpenBSD accepts paypal donations. I just gave them $5.
- equusdc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+61000*$0.00=$0.00
That's a whole lotta nothin', baby. - deBeuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I really don't understand what's wrong with asking for donations.
As has been stated before, they're not saying USERS should donate for using OpenSSH, just that all the big corporations that use it haven't given them a dime yet and the project is in a bit of trouble at the moment.
Apple for instance has never even donated a computer to OpenBSD/SSH, even though they use OpenSSH in OS-X. The result is that someone/the team has to cough up the cash to buy one.
As for splitting OpenBSD and OpenSSH up, should we do the same thing with OpenNTPD, OpenBGPD and other projects of theirs? One of the very wise decisions Theo has taken in the past is that there should be a minimum of politics and a maximum of coding. A LOT of other open source project's could learn something from this.
Oh and one more thing, OpenBSD has donated an incredible ammount of code to bind, apache, gcc, glibc, and various other projects, so don't criticize them for not sending money to GNU. They're not a bank or a big corporation, they're a team of coders. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5But they suck :(
- Bogtha, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5> RED HAT maintains GCC and spends money to do it, but doesn't give one dime to OpenSSH.
Then consider a portion of the money Red Hat spends on developing GCC to be their donation to OpenSSH. - xagoln, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I donated $50 US to OpenBSD when I heard about their financial woes.
It's kind of annoying that all the huge software companies benefitting from their tech (esp SSH) don't give them a dime!!! - timdorr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I donated $50 to them the other day. I figure a couple bucks per server is the *least* I could do.
- lowkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Well there's Dropbear for one. Now Dropbears goal is to be as lightweight as possible but it is free-of-charge and free-of-restriction.
- zeebo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4In short, no one would. As soon as that change was made the project would fork. A good number of developers would probably jump ship, and the world would just move on. Like what happened to Xfree86, on top of the world then they included a vanity clause and Xorg took over almost completely overnight.
If they really want support they should separate openSSH into a not for profit entity dedicated to developing it. - v3xt0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You're confusing the BSD license with the GPL License. Yes, it's an open source license. No, it doesn't mean you can fork it and call it yours. RTFL. =)
- mianos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Never heard of dropbear? http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html
It's even in Debian. You do have a choice. Like the same choice you have with a BSD license. You are not under any obligation to pay anything. - mirunit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"The two projects should be managed by seperate entities." Good Point and they should of, them being together could very well be a factor that is contributing to their downfall.
- sailor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think the key word here is "open" ...unless the licensing has changed I don't see it...by all means if you are able send a donation, but it is counter productive to demand donations.
- bkool, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Maybe more people would donate to OpenSSH if it were its own entity separate from OpenBSD. If I could donate money knowing it was only going toward OpenSSH development then I'd be much more likely to do so.
- The_Decryptor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3OpenBSD ask for money so they can fund hack-a-thons and such, they fly people up and get them to hack on the code, sorta like google's summer of code, but in one location and in a shorter period of time.
- delong, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It is called the Free Rider Problem, and it was perfectly foreseeable that this would be the shortcoming of the free software projects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem - Atomic1fire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3why dont they act like pbs and offer a cool hat or coffee mug
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4you only need to spend a few days reading the openbsd lists to realize the whole problem with openbsd's / openssh's money woes is because of theo and his attitude problems.
i respect his coding and his ideals of security, i just don't think he can attract any sponsorship or donations with his my way or the highway attitude. - v3xt0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What OpenBSD needs is a marketing strategist!
If they want to start making money off of their userbase (including ma&pa and big cheese corporations), then they will need to do a lot more professional work, rather than whining on and on too the FUD press like a bunch of babies.
They got their funding yanked by DARPA.
This was obviously not a good strategy for funding (relying on gvmnt funding is never secure).
If this was released under the GPL, it wouldn't be a problem, we could just fork it, and they would stfu.
Unfortunately, it is now so integrated within Linux/Unix Systems, that there is no way the community can withstand a complete loss of the application (future maintenance and security). - The_Decryptor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There will be other open SSH server/clients if OpenSSH goes under, but will they be of the same quality, or have the same level of source auditing, etc.
- rs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Local idea for an OpenBSD fundraiser is t-shirts emblazoned with "I used to be an OpenBSD user until Theo pissed me off". Sell them at inflated prices, donate all profits to the OpenBSD project, and the deficit goes away.
- tazamore, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Interesting but I don't agree because OpenSSH users are not a burden on the OpenSSH team thus not costing anything.
- valour, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Then do it:
http://www.openssh.com/donations.html - geomon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Except that no one is riding anything. No free riding is happening at all. OpenBSD has NO mass market adoption. That is the problem for the OpenBSD development group. They aren't suffering from too many users who aren't paying, they are suffering from too little interest in OpenBSD. If they had called themselves the OpenSSH company and asked for a paypal donation to help defray costs, they would probably be further down the road by now.
This whole story stinks of hubris. - beandog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I, personally, have donated money to some OSS projects. OpenSSH isn't likely going to be one of them, though. It makes sense for corporations to fund support, while I'll help out XMMS.
- valour, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Free as in RIGHTS, not PRICE. That is the basic, fundamental theory behind free software. Amazing that there are still people who continue the ridiculous notion that "free" in this context means cost.
- florin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I would donate for OpenSSH, but I don't really care that much for OpenBSD.
- goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Theo is another example of a brilliant man who should know when to shut his mouth, but can't. If someone else were in charge of OpenBSD they would have had funding a long time ago, but Theo can't shut up.
I like that about him, so I've donated 5 bucks.
PS - I wonder if Theo has Aspergegers? I do. Maybe thats why I like him.... - lifewithryan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Maybe they just need to step spending so much time working on their new "Song" with every version of BSD release and put more effort into raising money...
Just my 2 Megs... - tocksin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5required donation is an onymoron
- equusdc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I agree completely with the Novell response. There are over 1000 FOSS projects and they already directly support a number of them. As an individual user, it's silly to pick and choose one component or another to support and ignore the rest and supporting all of them--even say $1/yr--wouldn't be cost-effective.
Their response was a politely worded "you're right, we like the project, we just don't like YOU and we'd be more than happy to pick up the ball should you drop it. Until then, H.A.N.D." With something as critical as this, it is _very_ unlikely that such piss-off responses would come if there wasn't some serious acrimony going on. In the rest of the business world, when that environment is created, people get fired, businesses go broke and others step in to pick up the pieces and move on.
Perhaps that should happen here. - 3Den, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"This article asks the question: If so many are using this software, why are so few paying for it?"
Because it's free. Next.
Seriously.. the attitude "It's free, but you SHOULD pay for it to support Open SOURCE!" is silly. Open Source is not about guilting people into donating you money for something you offer for free.
1) OpenSSH is popular. SHoudl OpenBSD fall apart, someone would pick it up and continue. At the moment, it's still being developed, so who cares.
2) OpenBSD would have a lot more support of some of the key players were not needless asshats.
(For the record, I"m ALL in favor of people being elitist asshats regarding their own products, but they have to realize this comes with a PR cost, and they shouldn't whine about it when they find less public support than they like) - donte, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This community tends to give a bad rap to various organizations that charge for their software while holding OSS in such high regard. But all of a sudden when people don't pay for the software whose biggest draw is that it's free... they're bad people/companies? I'll probably reach negative diggs really fast, but seriously; if you're in the red $20,000 perhaps you ought to be considering slashing expenses or a developing a new business model, not begging for donations.
- mbm329, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Perhaps we'll start seeing a "punch the monkey" ad before logging into our servers.
- nemoder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It's one thing to ask for donations for Free software but to complain when you don't get them is silly.
If you don't want to work on it because it's not fun or you aren't getting paid then DON'T!
Either somebody more motivated will take over or if it's too complex then maybe somebody will step up and pay you to update it again. - audiohacked, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2A lot of companies and developers contribute to GCC and OpenSSH.
http://gcc.gnu.org/steering.html
http://www.openssh.com/history.html - malliemcg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Has OpenBSD even asked the corporations that use OpenSSH in their distributions (OSX, Solaris included in the phrase distributions) to help fund their OpenBSD conferences which appears the motivating factor in the plea for funds?
I have seen Apple, IBM and Sun sponsor conferences before, and I am sure that a polite request to these organisations would not necessarily be ignored out of course.
If IBM referred a customer to the OpenSSH mailing list because of a bug, that is just rude and irresponsible, if IBM wanted that bug fixed for that customer pronto, they should have paid for the development time to have it done. The point (as I see it to opensource) is that the reason it is open is so that you can fix the problems that exist without waiting for vendor lag, if the vendor is supporting a piece of software, they certainly should contribute to any coding done on support tickets related to that software / support contract.
That said - many OpenBSD proponants seem to be rather whingy regarding this matter and it is enough to give one pause considering if one should donate or not. (I have decided I will purchase the next CD set (pre - order 3.9) if only because I have benefited personally from OpenSSH's usefulness and am in a position to be able to support software creators.
M - DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Canthros: You'd better believe he does. We all do.
- radu79, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't really understand all this talk here. Either donate some money like I did (50 USD), or shut up. Those guys work their ass off so that others can benefit from their work. Don't you think they deserve at least some respect, if not money as well?
When the Gentoo leader had to work for MS, because he made little or no money with Gentoo, a lot of /. idiots started to put him down, because, omfg, he is a traitor siding with the enemy.
Well, if you don't liek OSS developers to go work for MS, or for other big company that doesn't open source their code, how about supporting them? If every Digg user would donate 1 USD on average, a lot of OSS projects could be supported. - volz0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I work for a company that operates entirely off selling service and support for it's own open-source
software. We maintain a variety of packages, and we turn profits every year. These people maintaning
packages that cost this much to maintain need to incorporate themselves, and SELL the skills they
have related to the packages. -
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