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55 Comments
- flarfu, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25a kde and gnome flame war is afoot.
- citrusfizz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22I think with a little configuration kde is beautiful... and gnome looks good at the start.. it just doesn't have as many options like kde does.....so its more like whatever you prefer
- chair, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15This isn't about appearance. It's about interoperability.
However, on the subject of appearance, Qt apps look as crap in GNOME as GTK apps do in KDE. The answer to the problem is unified themes. I think there's a project working on a framework but they don't really have anything to show. There's a fantastic project called QtCurve ( http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=5065 ). It gives the same theme to GTK 1, 2 and Qt. The screenshots don't really do it justice, it's highly configurable and I have it looking much better.
If you using KDE you HAVE to use QtCurve. It's the only theme you'll ever need. If you using GNOME maybe you could try it, although all the configuration is done through KControl :/
There's also GTK-Qt ( http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=20042 ) but that has a few visual bugs that annoy me. - zwilliams, on 10/12/2007, -15/+28Have you seen XP? Fisher-Price.
- Chupatumama, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10About freaking time.
KDE/Gnome debates annoy me even more than OSX/XP ones...its a freaking desktop!!
Tweak any one of them and you can work fine...yes, even the dayglow XP colors (I lie...when I have to boot into XP I use a simple classic dull interface along with my own icons and wallpaper and manage to survive.
I now have installed Kubuntu for over a dozen retired folks, most of whom have never used a computer and no one has gotten confused by the interface yet. - oopsatwork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8KDE is better.
No, Gnome is better...
KDE is better...
No, Gnome is better...
Duck season...
Rabbit season...
Duck season...
***shotgun blast*** - demonthises, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Hate to break it to you, but konsole, or whatever kde calls their terminal program, ain't exactly a bushel of roses. Especially when there are better terminal programs out there like rxvt, aterm, mrxvt, eterm, etc.
KDE has a lot going for it. Especially when you look at the number of kde/qt programs out there, but KDE uses the qt libraries which have licensing issues. If all the code you are writing is FOSS, then it is not a problem. However, the moment you start producing proprietary, closed source programs for KDE/qt, you got to start forking over money to Trolltech. As far as I know Gnome/GTK/GTK do not have this issue.
This new API could do it for linux [wishful thinking]. Having a consistent interface makes linux look less like a hodge podge of libraries and programs and more like a polished system. - repawn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8When I moved from WinXP to Linux I initially worked in KDE because it seemed nicer and easier to me - as I have become more proficient in using Linux I have come to prefer Gnome for no real reason. KDE is good but Gnome feels faster and more integrated to me. It would be nice if the both shared a common API though.
- strcmp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5The first excuse to hate KDE was that it had a proprietary license. This is no longer the case. KDE and the open-source version of the Qt toolkit are licensed under the GPL, the preferred license for Free software. However, lacking an excuse to hate KDE, people started complaining that the GPL was a poor license for KDE (they never complain about any other GPL software) and for some reason they actually manage to convince people. Observe that demonthises is at +7 for his anti-GPL comment, while dumbkiwi is at -2 for defending the GPL. I recommend that everyone read http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html, which explains why the LGPL (formerly referred to as the Library GPL but now the Lesser GPL) should not be used for libraries.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Sorry to have to take a crap on the KDE/Gnome flame war, but this should have happened 9 years ago! Look at how much time and resources have been wasted concurrently developing two incompatible, non-interoperable desktop systems for Linux/X11. All this because no one had the authority to decide definitively what the Linux desktop should be. No basic framework or starting point from which to build. Instead of providing true innovations in usability they've spent the last nine years trying to figure out how open and save dialogs should work, when Apple and Microsoft had this figured out in 1991 and 1995, respectively.
And it's a shame, because there is some very impressive and exciting technical work going into both Gnome and KDE, but the end result is just an unfocused, unusable mess that is bad for both users and developers.
To develop on Windows, I can choose from a number of APIs, component libraries, and languages, such as Win32/MFC (C, C++), VCL (Pascal, C++), Visual Basic, .NET. Each of these is fundamentally different from the developer's point of view, yet this choice is largely transparent to the Windows user.
To develop on Linux, however, I can choose Gnome, KDE, or some derivative thereof, but this choice has a fundamental impact on my users. I'm forced to choose one over the other, thereby alienating half of my potential users. It's madness, driven mostly by ideology.
I'm sure it will be sorted out some day, but probably not soon. And when it does, will anyone other than CompSci undergrads care? - Furiou5, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14oh please KDE is delicious!
- Kethinov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Well, yes, this is a good thing. But what does making desktop environments share more commonality have to do with a standard package manager? Package management is done a the distro level and is something all (or sufficiently most) distros would have to agree on before this problem went away.
- FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6bgmccollum: What version of KDE did you last use? And did you even look at the "Look N Feel" in KControl?! And for the record, what do you think *isn't* ugly? What makes KDE ugly?
- mianos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Maybe that article was made with a buzzword generator? "The DAPI APIs are part of a service-oriented architecture that Linux developers can use to provide customized services while maintaining a common set of interfaces across desktops"
- jonnyeh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I'm a KDE user, and when I'm browsing the web with firefox, saving files is annoying. Since firefox is GTK based, it opens this ugly ass file menu that is annoying to use. If konquerer supported firefox extensions, I wouldn't bother with firefox, just because of the file save dialogue.
- CptnObvious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The idea is that ISV's will have an easier time doing certain things such as open a file dialog or add a desktop shortcut without worrying about it being GTK/Gnome or QT/KDE specific.
- mcdpa, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7How long has it been since you used Gnome? Seriously, your comments are painfully dated. As an example gnome-terminal is a nice app that has plenty of nice features.
- eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"KDE's a great DE, but I just can't use it because it's so hard to theme. In GNOME, you just drag and drop new themes into theme manager"
KDE has a theme manager, very easy to use. :/ - Tripmoneyuk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5http://tango-project.org/Tango_Desktop_Project
"The Tango Desktop Project exists to help create a consistent graphical user interface experience for free and Open Source software."
Add this one to the list too ;) - btipling, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I love Gnome. I haven't tried KDE, but KDE apps don't always look right in my Gnome configuration. Also can you use Tango Icons or Clear Looks in KDE?
- strcmp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Stop ***** digging all the pro-gnome comments!
"Gnome has better integration because of, you know, KParts, KIOSlaves, DCOP, KOffice..." - Kethinov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Dugg your comment, but I completely disagree with you. There are fundamental reasons why a central authority on what is to be the desktop in the open source movement will never please everybody, so what you're hoping to see some day is a big pipe dream, or at least, very unlikely. Right now there are two major philosophies for how a good desktop should be. The Mac philosophy which GNOME tries to adhere to and the Windows philosophy which KDE tries to adhere to. Obviously both projects detract significantly, but you can really, arguably, boil it down to those general ideas.
In, say, twenty years, who knows how many philosophies of correct destkop usage there will be? We may see three, five, or sixteen major desktop environments available for Linux and possibly even proprietary operating systems as well! (Keep in mind Litestep for Windows and such.)
I completely feel your gripe as a developer that picking GTK or QT alienates half your Linux population, but, you know, Linux people just kind of understand that you, as a developer, have to make a bloody choice. You know? They just get it. And the blame and hatred be there any that exist lie not on you but the developers of the said toolkits for not making them more interoperable with their neighbors. So don't feel bad. I like GNOME. But if you write a sweet app in QT, I'm not going to burn down your house. I promise.
So you bring up a good point, but I advise you to take a step back and just chill out. Let the desktops play out as they may, and let the developers of those desktops worry about compatibility. After all, it's their job. And from the looks of things, it's going to get better before it gets worse. - Kethinov, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5KDE's a great DE, but I just can't use it because it's so hard to theme. In GNOME, you just drag and drop new themes into theme manager. In KDE, you pray someone's compiled a binary for your distro, or attempt to compile it and pray it works.
If I could get a full port of Redhat's Bluecurve artwork to KDE on Ubuntu, I might switch to KDE. But what it really needs is simply a better theming system so I can theme it with anything at will without being a master of dependency resolution. - zootm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If the quality of the command line tool is your measure of desktop usability, you probably shouldn't be comparing GNOME to KDE anyway. Go use Fluxbox or something. GNOME's aim is usability for normal users, and they're closer than KDE (although still not perfect, there's a lot of problems) to that goal, in my opinion.
KDE is great too, though. And a compatibility layer between the two, which seems to be what this article was actually about, is a fantastic step forward. - willistg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3xfce4 + xbindkeys = delicious desktop
- jonnyeh, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7I've been using KDE as my primary desktop for over a year now, I can't go back!
- diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3fluxbox anyone? i use gnome and kde apps perfectly. i just can't stand using gnome or kde as my main desktop, way too much going on and dealing with control panels and all kinds of other unwanted junk - that is why i left windows in the first place so that i can manage all of that from text files and command-line operations.
- soulrubble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ouch, was it just me or was that seriously difficult to read? Also, the "DAPI" looks... strange.
Stopping now, because I want to try and remain optimistic... :) - lagerbottom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1First of all it's not called "Terminal", it's called gnome-terminal. "Terminal" is either the mouseover you read, or your distro's choice for the menu item. And what is not usable about it? I have 2 open right now with 4 tabs in each. I can manage our entire network inside that "useless termial" The fonts render wonderfuly, preventing eye strain I get with other terminals. The config dialoge isn't brain dead, with ok defaults and easy changable items. wtf needs mouse support in a console? Buy a book on bash and learn the keybindings.
Now metacity...that is useless and in the way. - Phrodo00, on 10/12/2007, -11/+12yeah... after you've messed with its endless options for a coulpe of months
- demonthises, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1strcmp I am not saying I am against the GPL. Without the GPL I would probably be stuck running windows or maybe running BSD [not that running BSD is a a bad thing]. However, there are times when companies need specialized software, and having the developer open sourcing it might not be advantageous. In 10-20 years from now or maybe 2 year it might be better to make most all software OSS but not necessarily free as in cost. Personally, I would love to see a shift in the business model and have this kind of specialized software go open source, but I have my doubts.
btw for anyone having trouble with strcmp's link, digg added an extra comma at the end screwing it up.
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-not-lgpl.html - CptnObvious, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4This is great! Although a little too late for me since I am now using *all* KDE apps (and loving it btw) but this is definately needed.
- Guspaz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Am I missing something? If you install both KDE and GNOME, you can run the apps from one in the other just fine. The overhead is minimal, you only need to load one, you just need the libs from both.
So, what exactly is the breakthrough here? A method to save a few megs of harddrive space? Big deal. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4'And well I prefer firefox over KDE. Like I could not double click in firefox at all, or use the scroll wheel. Any other program I could but not firefox.'
parent is a moron... - StrawberryFrog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wish I could slap all the underage fanbois yelling about "my GUI is better than yours, wah wah wah". Shut up and grow up; I don't care.
Now, about the article - Anything that makes which one of Gnome and KDE you choose less of an issue is good, so this I suppose is good news. But, I didn't actually get much out of the article - it's full of buzzwords and short on specifics. What exactly does this new API do? I can't tell. Apparently it "provides customized services while maintaining a common set of interfaces across desktops. " So does pizza delivery. - zonk3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i don't claim to understand all of the intracacies of kde vs. gnome however it does seem to me that these two groups really need to put aside their collective differences and focus on a uniform design if they wish to seriously tackle the desktop front (ie, linux for non-geek types like Mom, Dad, VP of Accounting, your 5 year old, etc).
i can understand the reasons why the two projects operate differently and separately as there are differing philosophies of doing things. however, i think this ultimately adds yet another layer of complexity for many users to grasp linux. especially users who you are trying to bring over from the windows and mac worlds... - Fentekreel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is a great idea. Though after reading the project page of this "portland" project i'm still a little confused on what it is actually doing. Is it going to make NEW libraries that will unify the workings of Desktop Environments with X that will be universally shared with the base linux distro...or is it going to take a collection of libraries that will be used by the more popular Desktop Envrionments on the block?
Either way could prove to be useful though i'm glad that there is going to be some kind of unified form of working Desktop Environments so that changing from (for example) kde -> gnome -> E -> fluxbox ->whatever will be easier. One thing i wish i could do with my windows environment....aside from installing new shells... Though each different Environment has its own benifits and downfalls this ability for applications to be able to "just work" under said environment is an amazing achievement if the standard is followed....as it mentioned in the article that the project uses a rpm based system...i could be wrong....
I'm glad that something is being done to bring all of the different distro's together. It would be nice to not have to worry about having to make sure that T library exists to run something like k3b in gnome. If i understand the project correctly ....which i probably don't......the libraries that would be used to have a general interface between the desktop envioronment and the desktop server so that the applications could be developed platform independant which would be awesome!....***** gotta head back to class.... - 4321234, on 03/06/2009, -0/+1KDE is a monstrosity. It looks pretty but is totally cluttered with features and options. Gnome is much cleaner and user friendly. It's brown and orange. Two rockin' colors. If I right click on it, I can change my wallpaper. I love that.
- MasterDwarf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Anything that supports choice should be dugg by all. IMHO
- dumbkiwi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4There are no licensing issues with Qt. This is a myth. If you want to produce GPL software, then you can use the GPL version of Qt. If you want to close your application, then you need to pay Qt some money to use THEIR toolkit. If you want to make money off their toolkit, then you pay a license fee. Seems a fair swap to me.
Agreed GTK does not have this restriction, but (as far as I understand it), Qt is far easier to develop for, and has better cross-platform support. - burke, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Why exactly do you need a mouse-positionable cursor if you're using a terminal? To me, that sort of seems to defeat the whole purpose.
- buffymcmuffy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Since both KDE and Gnome allow you to go crazy on the desktop who cares what the look like out of the box as long as they are usable. Some integration would be nice though if it means you can easily use programs from the other desktop but using you desktops settings.
- OneAndOnlySnob, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yeah, but GTK+ offers Glade, which is by far the best user interface development tool I have ever used. Ok, it's a little weird at first, but once you understand it, it's extremely useful.
And the apps are portable to Windows with minor tweaks, no license issues or anything. - logden, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ahem...
I don't think the developers working on KDE or GNOME are primarily interested in "bringing over windows & mac users" so much as creating a nice desktop for themselves and others who want to use it. This whole "war" over which desktop is better is silly. I use KDE, you use GNOME. We load each others libraries and we all are happy.
not that I don't think the work going on regarding this article isn't great. Anything the two projects (and others) can do to make GTK programs I install put menu items in my KDE menu structure and vice-versa is great. I just don't think a lot of people get it when users of either of these desktop environments say "Windows/Mac converts are welcome, just don't expect it to be windows and don't expect that there will be only one way to do something. We like it that way :). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Portuguese / Brazilian : http://www.htk.com.br/noticia.php?noticia=433
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http://www.htk.com.br/ - demonthises, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Grrrr.......these so called "3 minute" editable comments are annoying.
It should be
*Gnome/GTK/GTK+ - Nodren, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4maybee now all linux distrobutions can have unified way of adding and removing ALL programs... not just the ones inside their repository.
i think this new interface might actually be the starting point of linux becoming a viable alternative to even the most stubborn of windows users... and allow companies to start porting their applications over to linux more rapidly and effectively - nugget, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3I started using Knoppix so I had KDE. I liked it and so when I used all the distros I tried I used KDE. I got Kubuntu and I liked KDE, but I had some firefox issues. And well I prefer firefox over KDE. Like I could not double click in firefox at all, or use the scroll wheel. Any other program I could but not firefox. So I swiched to just Ubuntu and I got the firefox issues solved. I then got used to it but I will try kubuntu again with the new release.
- noahking, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2But is it lickable?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -17/+12Gnome doesn't even come with a decent command line. Terminal won't even let you use the mouse to place the cursor where you want it. Seriously, if Linux were a car, Gnome would be the early models that required you to get out and handcrank the engine to get it going. Or maybe the Flinstone car where you have to use your feet to go anywhere. C'mon, Gnome, get out of the stone age. You're so much more stable than KDE, but you're so much less useful!
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