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49 Comments
- harlowsmonkeys, on 10/11/2007, -3/+55Just to clarify for people that read the Digg story but don't go and read the article, "stable" when applied to an API isn't related to crashes or failures. It refers to the API not changing in the future in a way to break current programs. Once there is a stable API, you should be able to update your kernel without breaking your drivers.
- Ramble, on 10/10/2007, -1/+13Actually it's more secure. The worst someone could do it bring down the driver in userspace. While it resides in kernelspace it can bring down the entire system.
- sq377, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Not really. It says specifically in the article that it isn't fast enough for filesystem drivers
- amfantasy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+8I thought you we're right, why are you getting dugg down? Wasn't there talk about this awhile ago? You should be able to update your kernel and it won't break your nvidia driver.
- kris33, on 10/10/2007, -1/+8Do you mean using Vista drivers under Linux?
Since I don't think using Linux drivers in Vista will end the poor Linux support. - UKsHaDoW, on 10/10/2007, -2/+8Yes that's exactly why they use it on servers. Being unstable and all that...
- nukem996, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6NVIDIA already does this and has been for years. Thats why there drivers are usually about the same on all the platforms they support.
- caligari77, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project,... (from http://www.gnome.org/about/)
- rabidsnail, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Just to be clear, this isn't a separate driver layer. You still need to have a stub of code in the kernel. The change here is that now you can have the majority of the driver in userland and have it talk to the kernel stub via a block device.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4Yes but these days the kernel is large and compares well in terms of number of lines of code to the GNU userland (and kernel code is far more complicated than application code and is a million times more difficult to debug, the real business of software development). All the 'just a kernel' arguments refer to the times before the system had any mainstream usage. In '97 the kernel may have been poor and small compared to the rest of the system but that isn't true any more.
- Gadren, on 10/10/2007, -4/+7rms? Is that you?
- drgnpaladin, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3A company called Jungo already provides a decent kernel abstraction that lets users write driver code that can be compiled for windows and Linux. As a driver writer, it's not too difficult to structure your driver so that the kernel specific code is abstracted away from the rest of the code.
- Virak, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4No, not really. Running in userspace doesn't necessarily mean that any random user can ***** with it as they please. It'll most likely require root privileges or such.
- kris33, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3GNOME: GNU Object Model Environment
Anyway, guess RMS paralyzed me. I watched a wonderful speak about copyright, where everything he said was right. Except this, maybe :)
Edit: Damn. Caligari77 beat me - init100, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3"FUSE was started for political, rather than technological means, and that always spells "crap product""
Oh? I thought FUSE was written to simplify creation of virtual filesystems, such as the SSH and FTP filesystems. Why should they reside in the kernel if they don't have to?
The FUSE-ZFS module may have been created for political reasons, but I don't think that applies to FUSE as a whole. - multitude, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4I agree with the author of this article that it is still better to see hardware companies who make their drivers open-source, I'll always support these companies more than their closed-source counterparts.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2That's not what I said at all. There are cross platform API's between Linux and Solaris (I bloody well named two) but that Linux binaries (that utilised said API's) would not run on Solaris and vice verse without a compatibility layer.
What is important is ABI stability for that. There are various things that change depending on the compiler, linker etc. You must first have API stability of course but that isn't even close to ensuring an easy upgrade path. - GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -4/+6A stable API isn't enough to ensure easy upgrades. For that you need a stable ABI. You can provide a stable API and change the underlying implementation and you still won't get compatibility without a recompile. Think about it, Solaris and GNU/Linux have stable and comparable API's (POSIX, Libc) but most applications will need a recompile to run on different implementations. You can't just drop a Linux binary on a Solaris box (assuming no Linux compatibility layer).
Also this is about userspace rather than in kernel. That will still be a free for all. - Ratteler, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Here's a cool idea. Can a Windows wrapper be created to use the Linux drivers under Windows Vista?
Since both systems are now addressing drivers in user space, we might be able to get Graphic card manufacturers to create a single driver with kernal patches being unique to each OS.
That would pretty much end the poor Linux support, and remove any WIndows advantage at the same time. - Darkhacker, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Why not just have a stable API alongside the current one? Basically they make a release like 2.6.23 and include a LTS API. Then when 2.6.24 comes out, they change the unstable API all they want to keep the kernel evolving and then alter the LTS API so that applications can still use it with newer versions of the kernel without changing the interface. They could then update the LTS to reflect a more recent API state every few years or how ever long the kernel developers think would be suitable.
- JonLatane, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4Or maybe you're just being a dick, and Linux is what the vast majority of users call it. The rest of the OS is NOT GNU, believe it or not. You're just talking about the core utilities (rm, ls, et cetera) that are used to imitate Unix functionality. GNOME? KDE? Many, many, many drivers and applications? Not GNU! Saying anyone should call Linux GNU/Linux is like saying Windows should be called DOS/Windows*. GNU doesn't make up half of what Linux has become (although their license is used commonly).
* Technically this only applies to pre-XP versions that used DOS as a backend, but that doesn't change the point of the analogy. - OrangeTide, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2when you have root on a Linux box you can map in any physical memory into your userspace process and overwrite it. even I/O memory or pieces of the kernel. Also as root you can load kernel modules.
user space devices doesn't mean non-root users can operate devices. - rolosworld, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5basically what you said is that you can't upgrade drivers on windows because their API doesn't work with linux!
stable API doesn't mean crossplatform API's! - init100, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2"GNOME: GNU Object Model Environment"
Correction: GNOME = GNU Network Object Model Environment - aburd, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3What does this mean? I don't think I have the knowledge base to get understand the article. Is there any chance I could get an idiot's summary of the concepts behind this?
- BrainInAJar, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4responses:
ZFS isn't about speed, but it happens to be fast anyways ( eg, try it with compression=on ). It's about data reliability, even in face of unreliable hardware.
the FUSE driver is slow and unreliable. Also, FUSE was started for political, rather than technological means, and that always spells "crap product"
layering "violation" allows you to have things like smart filesystems. The "layers" are outdated, time to scrap 'em.
The license is Linux's fault, not Sun's. The problem isn't that the CDDL doesn't allow you to put it in GPL stuff, the CDDL is per-file only, so you can stuff it in FreeBSD, OSX, whatever... the GPL doesn't allow you to import non-GPL code unless it's BSD. - AxiomShell, on 10/10/2007, -2/+4I guess you wrote bugless code all your life ... must be the caps lock thing.
- mancat, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1That point is that you don't get to fiddle with memory in kernel space. You get to ask the kernel if it will do the fiddling for you, and it reserves the right to say "no."
- pigot4, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1http://www.oneopensource.it/interview-linus-torvalds/
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1If you can fiddle with memory in user space then you can alter the kernel itself as it runs. Micro kernels can be more stable* but are definitely not secure.
*which is what you are referring to, a bad driver only crashes that driver and a resurrection server could restore the system to functional without rebooting. - BrainInAJar, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2the Linux kernel
the Mach microkernel
the Prius hybrid
the Playstation game console
... the < proper name > < descriptive name > .... - perlhacker14, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2In case any one is interested, they just released a tarball of the 2.6.23-rc1 sources in testing at kernel.org. Tomorrow I will probably get around to compiling it and seeing how it is.
- Gman1223, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Why do people reply to trolls, are you really that retarded DarkDx? There, you gave him exactly what he wanted. Douche.
- GMorgan, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1GNOME is related to GNU in the same way as EGCS (now the official GCC) was related to GNU. Largely done via the third party but graciously including GNU in the name for the sake of publicising GNU and the FSF. There is a big difference between projects handled via the GNU cathedral development process (which GCC and GNOME are not) and projects supported by GNU which happen to have GNU in the name. Really these projects are GNU like Linux is Unix.
- kris33, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Hm. Strange. I just googled GNOME and copied from the first link, gnome.org
- thall, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Luckily our processors these days sport *hardware* isolation of memory and execution contexts. So as long as the evil user code can't take over the supervisory portion of the processor before the kernel gets there, it is the kernel that has the final say of what the executing code can and cannot do.
- zeabu, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Why attack windows from the inside and outside? I don't get it why people always have to be pro-linux and anti-microsoft, or pro-mac and and anti-pc. The future is not one winning over another I hope, let all OS's just be interoperable. It's the competition between them that makes them innovate. That's also what let you choose between the less restrictive, etc. Choice is bliss.
- Ratteler, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1No I mean using LINUX drivers under VISTA. So that Linux gets developed for first.
It also means that when FOSS drivers develop, they can be used in Vista as well.
Attack windows from the inside as well as the outside. - DarkDx, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0Hey, I like OS X, but you linux has its strong points, I mean I like it after os x. moron
- slowmotiony, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1What?
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -4/+1what is a lunix
- dippyskoodlez, on 10/10/2007, -4/+1LOL.
- AZBioDsl, on 10/10/2007, -8/+1lol, wut?
- trogdoor, on 10/11/2007, -8/+1Could this have anything to do with ZFS?
- schestowitz, on 10/11/2007, -16/+6ZFS is available vist FUSE and some even embrace it. It is however unlikely to make it into the kernel. The benefits aren't great anyway (supporting material below).
___
OpenSolaris ZFS vs. Linux ext3 RAID5
,----[ Quote ]
| Few overarching conclusions can be drawn from the limited results of this
| study. Certainly, there are situations in which the Solaris/RAID-Z1
| configuration appears to outperform the Ubuntu/RAID-5 configuration. Many
| questions remain regarding the large discrepancy in CPU usage for small-file
| operations. Likewise, the Ubuntu/RAID-5 configuration appears to perform
| slightly better in certain situations, though not overwhelmingly so. At best,
| under these default configurations, one can say that overall the Solaris
| configuration performs no worse, and indicates that it might perform better
| under live operating conditions. The latter, though, is largely speculation.
`----
http://www.prestonlee.com/archives/121
Cluster File Systems & Sun to integrate Lustre with OpenSolaris ZFS file systems
,----[ Quote ]
| Today Cluster File Systems™, Inc. (CFS), announced that the open source
| Lustre network file system will start using Sun's open source OpenSolaris ZFS
| disk file system on Lustre servers running Linux operating systems.
|
| Lustre is a leading HPC file system, running on more than 50 percent of the
| 30 biggest computers in the world.
`----
http://clusterfs-intra.com/cfscom/news/latest/cluster-file-systems--sun-to-integrate-lustre-with-opensolaris-zfs-file-systems.html
ZFS Filesystem for FUSE/Linux
,----[ Quote ]
| ZFS is an advanced modern general-purpose filesystem from Sun
| Microsystems, originally designed for Solaris/OpenSolaris.
|
| This project is a port of ZFS to the FUSE framework for the
| Linux operating system.
|
| It was sponsored by Google, as part of the Google Summer of
| Code 2006 program.
`----
http://www.wizy.org/wiki/ZFS_on_FUSE
ZFS: what "the ultimate file system" really means for your desktop -- in plain
English!
,----[ Quote ]
| It has quite an extensive feature set just like its peers, but builds on
| this by adding a new layer of simplicity. According to the official site,
| ZFS key features are...
`----
http://apcmag.com/6468/zfs_the_ultimate_filesystem
Rampant layering syndrome
,----[ Quote ]
| It's another post from a ZFS developer's blog. This time, it's Jeff
| Bonwick responding to Andrew Morton's claim that ZFS is a "rampant
| layering violation" because it cuts across the traditionally
| separate worlds of the filesystem, volume manager, and RAID controller.
`----
http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits.ars/2007/05/04/rampant-layering-syndrome
Linux: ZFS, Licenses and Patents
,----[ Quote ]
| A recent discussion on the lkml examined the possibility of a
| Linux implementation of Sun's ZFS. It was pointed out that the
| file system is released under the GPL-incompatible CDDL, and
| that Sun has filed numerous patents to prevent ZFS from being
| reverse engineered.
`----
http://kerneltrap.org/node/8066 - kris33, on 10/10/2007, -14/+3Linux kernel? WTF is that? The kernel of the kernel?
Yes, that's right. Linux is only the kernel. The rest of the OS newbies call Linux, is actually called GNU. :) - sq377, on 10/11/2007, -12/+1Allowing full device control into userspace scares me... It seems that would bring some major security issues with it.
- sammykeyes, on 10/10/2007, -19/+2Buried for having Linux in it - and the fact that it's positive news.
Everyone knows that OS X is better. - pogfreak, on 10/10/2007, -21/+2LFMAO LINUX + STABLE = COMEDY
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