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179 Comments
- junkalam, on 10/12/2007, -20/+172Last time i checked Linux was all about "choice". Personally i prefer Gnome over KDE.
- cyberwiz01, on 10/12/2007, -36/+94Gnome needs to get over the Philosophy of crippling features to improve "useability." Case in point: try to adjust your screensaver settings in Gnome. Should be trivial to do right? Nope.
I understand that they are trying to make it as simple as possible. And I also understand that KDE can be a little too cluttered some times. But why can't there be a balance of form and functionality that doesn't require crippling features.
Go Linus! - pufuwozu, on 10/12/2007, -22/+76@darkbird, as a self-proclaimed power-user, I'd just like to say that I prefer Gnome than any other.
- dicerandom, on 10/12/2007, -10/+58This is why I like Linus. He isn't afraid to make a ruckus and shout at people, which isn't terribly unusual in and of itself, but then he goes and actually backs up his statements with code.
"I don't like this, it sucks for these reasons. This is how it should be done, and here is the code to do it that way."
Hooray OSS! - darkbird, on 10/12/2007, -17/+60@secleinteer: If linux is to go mainstream, we need to start thinking about the enduser, and not the power-user.
@pufuwozu: I am also a "self-proclaimed power-user" and I also prefer Gnome. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+41Different people have different needs. I like KDE. I have used many desktop environment over the years and KDE has a lot of functionality that I need. There's no one DE that's perfect. It's not a 'one size fits all' sort of thing. To use a car analogy, some tasks require trucks. Some tasks are better handled by a small car.
- vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -13/+50Am I the only one that could give a flying ***** which desktop Linus uses?
Besides he probably uses emacs too, when we all know that vi is superior. - Cl1mh4224rd, on 10/12/2007, -19/+55I personally dislike KDE if only for the "first impressions" aspect. KDE's default theme rivals XP's default theme for the most childish-looking, in my opinion.
Konquerer, as an all-in-one thing, just plain bothers me, too. No one likes browsing the Internet in an Explorer window, so why is this OK?
When I use Linux, I choose GNOME. Good to know I still have that choice.
...Right? - secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -22/+50darkbird:
And how many Linux users are end-user grandma type people? How many of them are power users? - vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27My job is complete when I have replaced myself with a beautiful symphony of cron jobs.
- jamsea, on 10/12/2007, -11/+34XFCE owns all. Plus its the only thing that looks nice AND runs very smoothly on my old machine :P
- secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25vuke69:
Funny thing is, Linus actually hates emacs, and is a professed vim user ;) - maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -21/+43Gnome is in the wrong here, for what it's worth.
As it is, linux does not make a suitable mainstream desktop OS, there are far to many complexities to it that MS and Apple abstract away better from the end user. From an IT perspective usablity testing leans towards heavily on linux, but you're also testing the usability for IT people. You grab a 9 year old and ask them to change the screen res on linux without a GUI and you can probably forget it.
This is where free software lacks in ideology, when you're creating new code to accomplish some function, you program it to work, but on the bigger picture you're not generally concerned with how it works since those of us who will use it will understand what and why you did it that way. MS and Apple have the responsibility to program not for themselves, or for the advanced IT community, but for the general populace who pays good money for the software, it should work and it should be simple, regardless of its abstractions.
Lastly, programming in the general is a skill that requires one more skill before it can be useful, and that is engineering. I stand pretty firmly about that feeling, CS and SE majors who have a background or parallel education in engineering make superior programmers to traditional programmers, not by means of education, but by means of thought.
I like Gnome over KDE though, as a note. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -12/+33@secleinteer
That is the point behind the Gnome philosophy. They are trying to get Linux to the point that non-power users would want to use it. - digitalarcanum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21In communist Linux you no choose desktop, desktop choose y- oh shi-
ah ***** it. someone else finish this line for me.
Before I get dugg down to hell for the russian reversal post, let me just say: does it really matter what window manager you or your circle of linux friends use? Most good distros offer a choice between gnome and KDE and a basic no frills WM and if they don't it's not like it's hard to install an alternate desktop. Dependency hell isn't what it used to be and even if you are having a hard time there's a metric ass ton of mailing lists you can join with people who can help you. Bottom line as stated previously: Linux is about choice. Choose wisely.
Props to mr torvalds though for voicing his opinion and having the code to back it up. - Homunculiheaded, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22what ever happened to simplicity being a good thing? The first linux DE I ever used was fluxbox, and my first impression was "wow this is awesome". I loved the simplicity. Now I do use Gnome over fluxbox (although that might change) but I don't think a simpler interface excludes power users, infact I would say the thing that really separates power users from average users (whether in windows or in linux) is how much time they spend in the command line, and proper use of shell/batch scripts, and it doesn't get any simpler than the command line.
- megaton, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24@secleinteer:
And how many want to change that? *puts hand up* - g3r4, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21GNOME isn't an OS. Its a Desktop Environment. Linux is the OS. Or if you prefer, [Insert Distro Name Here] is the OS.
- maninblac1, on 10/12/2007, -8/+24I'm going to have to say that emacs and vi both blow.
Only someone with sadistic tendencies would write an editor with hundreds of keyboard shortcuts for navigation.
Efficiency my a$$, please wait will i try and remember that esoteric combination of buttons
ctrl + scr lock + scr lock + shift + X + ) + caps
then enter and shift + ZZ - Giga, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22"I like Gnome, I think KDE is bloated and it looks like it's made for noobs."
I like KDE, I think Gnome is featureless and it IS made for noobs. - vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20I know, I just haven't seen a really good vim vs. emacs flame war in years.
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I'm all for a good argument, but I can't understand why Linus cares so much about Gnome's deficiencies.
- secleinteer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Link to actual posts on mailing list: http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2007-February/thread.html
- adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20Nobody is forcing Linus to use Gnome. There wouldn't be any Linux without Torvalds but that doesn't give him the right to control any project he wants.
- ch33zm0ng3r, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16As with all desktop environments you always have the terminal. "Power users" should be able to use this feature to get the desired result if they can't find the button that they want to click in the GUI. I suppose that some would argue that you don't want another step between you and your functions, but the GUI sort of "in the way" to begin with. Simplicity is zen. However, as stated above you can choose Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Open Box....., ..., ..., or make your own. No need to argue really.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12For those complaining about Konqueror. You are showing a clear misunderstanding of what KDE is. Konqueror also has a text editor and PDF viewer (among others) on top of its web browser and file viewer. The editor is of course KATE and the PDF viewer KPDF.
These are all actually separate applications that are maintained by their own teams with all the appropriate time taken on them. It's just that the KDE API is built around the principle of building your programs around modular KParts with a KPart viewer used to deliver the application. Konqueror is just a generic KPart viewer that can be made into whatever the hell you like by creating the appropriate KPart.
IE integration sucked because IE was a monolithic nightmare. Everything about it was distinctly average and security struggled because of it's size. Now Konqueror is made of many small and well tested modules following the Unix philosophy. It is not an integrated do everything job, it does one job well. It includes KParts to handle whatever task it needs to achieve. As a result each task is a project in it's own right and treated as such, the KATE team take their work seriously and want to develop something worthy of a flame/religious war. It just happens to be done in a way that Konqueror can import it.
In any case, comparisons to IE are superficial. What is bad with IE is not what they tried but how they tried it. Konqueror does it properly. Note that you could actually write your own KParts to replace the standard ones. If someone did something mad like a Gecko KPart you'd have Firefox via Konqueror. You can write your own file browser and replace the standard one. There used to be a Vim KPart (to replace KATE) and I think QT Designers text editor is also a KPart. - neko, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12@outoforder: "You make a bold claim with no evidence. Please explain what is wrong with the screensaver dialog?"
Ok, I can field this one, firing up my other machine with a fresh install of ubuntu edgy, I see two main options "Blank Screen" "Random", followed by the big list of screensavers. So I can choose a random one out of all of those, or just one of those -- where did the checkboxes go? Why can't I select my custom subset of desirable screensavers?
Comparing to the xscreensaver preferences on my main debian machine, the "Blank After" option is still there, but no control for how long to wait between cycling random screensavers. All the custom options per-saver seem to have vanished.
Ah, interesting, When I had it on the Dapper machine at work, and used it to lock my screen, the "New Login" button from xscreensaver was missing, meaning if someone else needs to quickly log in while I'm out to lunch, they couldn't. I see that's been fixed in the Edgy version of gnome-screensaver, there's a "Switch user.." button now. Nice to see they fixed that up, but I still find the lack of preferences to be very restrictive. - Fordi, on 10/12/2007, -11/+22Feh. The point is that Gnome isn't written for Linus; it's written for people who don't know what they're doing.
Which is why I use XFCE; if you're going to have a low-feature interface, there's no good reason for it to take up hundereds of megs. - thetictacaddict, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12People seem to think that XFCE is only for old or slow hardware. Personally, I prefer it to Gnome or KDE though my computer can run any of them. Easy to configure, good window manager, nice versatile panels, snappy... XFCE 4.4 is real nice, guys.
- StealthTomato, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17Believe it or not, I've run the ultimate speed test, where minor differences are exaggerated: I've run both environments on a 350mhz processor machine with 188mb of RAM.
KDE proved more unstable. Menus often failed to open, apps crashed, and I lost my window decorators on several occasions.
Gnome, on the other hand, was not nearly as pretty but ran like a charm. It was slow, as was KDE, due to the weak machine, but there were visible degrees of speed difference between KDE and GNOME. GNOME proved to be more stable and quicker.
Nowadays, my machine's a lot more powerful, and I run Linux Mint with GNOME and occasionally start up Compiz just for grins. GNOME is rock-solid and has worked better from my experience.
Moral of the story: my experience is different from yours is different from Ted's is different from Joe's and so on. Your PC may run KDE better, while mine might be more favorable in a GNOME environment. Use what works, quit whining about what someone else uses when their preferences do not alter your experience in any way. - MisterCookie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15I love how within seconds these comments devolved into KDE vs. GNOME fanboy wars. For gods sake, no one cares! Use the one you prefer, not like its detracting from your own choice. (And kudos to anyone who can constructively criticize the other desktop without resorting to the following words: Sheeple, n00b, moron, etc.)
- jbus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Linus is a great kernel dev... But getting into high publicity wars with different projects is not good for Linux.
Personally, I have switched from using KDE to using Gnome and I tend to prefer Gnome, though i do use both. Some people view Gnome as restrictive, but I like my desktop experience to be simple and functional. To me Gnome offerers the right balance. Although, I don't like everything about Gnome and agree the print dialog needs work, but then so does some KDE's UI. - vuke69, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14@maninblac1
Once you learn, it really is way faster.
:wq - strabes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12I agree. To each his own.
- wolf08, on 10/12/2007, -5/+14I'm also a gentoo user (have been for well over a few years now), and I use Gnome. Each to his own. And I feel that you're trashing it for no reason.
GTK seems to be more ubiquitous than kde in the non-linux-x86 world. There are windows gtk apps, there is OLPC, there is my n800 which (I believe) uses a stripped down gtk+ alongside maemo.
To me, there seems to be less 'effects just for the sake of effects' if that makes any sense. Anyway, that's my opinion. I still like kde. I use it on another computer with Kubuntu, and it works fine. But I don't mess with it like I do my main gentoo box =). - regeya, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11I really couldn't care less which desktop Linus stands behind. I like KDE for the choice, have always preferred KDE amongst the full-fledged Free desktops, and generally only use something else when I have tighter memory requirements (then it's XFCE, or possibly Window Maker with a few GUI tools) or when KDE is suffering from unfixed bugs, especially unfixed bugs that are just left unfixed by my distribution-of-choice...but that's what I get for using KDE on a GNOME-fanboy Linux distribution. Heck, I like Ruby and KDE, and use Ubuntu. I must be dumb.
For the people wondering why Konqueror does everything: It was, iirc, largely a response to Microsoft's threat of making IE a part of the operating system. At the time, KFM had integrated KHTML support, while WIn98's IE integration was tenuous at best. :-D I used to have a screenshot of KFM displaying MS's page on the improvements in '98, just 'coz I thought it was funny that it was all coming Real Soon Now(TM) while I was using KDE which "shipped" with most of the stated major improvements. I understand why people don't like it, and to tell the truth I alternate between Firefox and Opera, but I know of quite a few folks who like the integration of Internet and desktop. - kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15KDE has too many distractions to get any work done.
Gnome's biggest problem is the under-powered open / save dialogues - vivisector, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18I'm running GNOME right now and I never realized how limiting it really is. I mean changing anything is a pain in the ass. As for KDE I find it too cluddered.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8GNOME is getting used because there are currently serious architectural issues with KDE3. Wait until KDE4 comes out and DCOP gets replaced with the more standard DBUS, QT4 comes in meaning a 30% increase in efficiency and Phonon comes in allowing the increasingly standard GStreamer to be used effortlessly with KDE apps like Amarok.
Really the current KDE suffers from it's own boldness in many respects and partly because of QT. It created Arts before GStreamer and DCOP before DBUS. People only built these technologies because of the QT non free issue. Now QT is free and KDE are moving to version 4 we should see it re-establish its previous dominance. It has equally bold plans but no politics to undermine it. - sancho, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Evangelizing your desktop environment or window manager makes a lot of sense--the more users you have, the support you get, and the more likely you are to get improvements to the software.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"""But why, oh, why, have GNOME people not just said "please fix it then"?
Instead, I _still_ (now after I sent out the patch) hear more of your kvetching about how you actually do everything right, and it's somehow *my* fault that I find things limiting.
Here's a damn big clue: the reason I find GNOME limiting is BECAUSE IT IS.
Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad"""
Whether you agree with the man on DE preference or not - he's absolutely right about that. When any other OS project comes across lacking onbvious features or even design problems, it's happy to get them fixed.
When you try to get bugs and misfeatures fixed up in gnome, they spend a fair bit of time and energy justifying the problems - time and energy that could be applied trying out the patch, or even addressing the problem themselves if the patch isn't good enough. - mraustin1337, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13How can one be such a total geek and such a total badass at the same time? Absolutely breathtaking.
Hats off to you Mr Torvalds. I just added your last name to my Firefox dictionary. Now that is respect. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Once again we see people producing in the OSS community. There is infighting everywhere. In OSS we make something practical out of the infighting by using it to generate competition.
- springah, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11hes submitted a patch... far from controlling the gnome project...
- ericcc, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Yeah but does he have to be such a dick about it?
- nullx42, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9XFCE is a good transition for Mac users, but it lacks overall window control, imho. As far as KDE vs Gnome: My first linux system was Gnome by default so id say im partial to it. I still like all 3 (especially XFCE on the dream linux distro)
- stox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6And the GUI wars continue. It used to be Motif vs OpenLook, and now it is KDE vs Gnome. Some things never change.
- blusteel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I love FOSS and all, but there sure are a lot of egomaniacs in it. I would love to see Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman, and Theo de Raadt locked together in a small room. Professional wrestling would be put to shame.
- chaersi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7It's settled then, we all move to Vista!!!
/sarcasm - kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Why doesn't he fork it and call it Lome?
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