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- FishHammer, on 10/08/2008, -1/+44Digg is more useful as a server destroying superweapon than it is as a news site.
- FlareHeart, on 10/08/2008, -5/+34I have personally used Gentoo, Fedora, and Kubuntu (Ubuntu with KDE as the default window manager). Of all three I definitely like Kubuntu the best.
Dugg for promotion of Linux and competition of OS'es. - Aurabolt, on 10/08/2008, -1/+2410 days ago Linux creator Linus Torvalds gave an interview in which he talked about what he likes and doesn't like in a Linux distribution:
I've used different distributions over the years. Right now I happen to use Fedora 9 on most of the computers I have, which really boils down to the fact that Fedora had fairly good support for PowerPC back when I used that, so I grew used to it. But I actually don't care too much about the distribution, as long as it makes it easy to install and keep reasonably up-to-date. I care about the kernel and a few programs, and the set of programs I really care about is actually fairly small.
And when it comes to distributions, ease of installation has actually been one of my main issues - I'm a technical person, but I have a very specific area of interest, and I don't want to fight the rest. So the only distributions I have actively avoided are the ones that are known to be "overly technical" - like the ones that encourage you to compile your own programs etc.
Yeah, I can do it, but it kind of defeats the whole point of a distribution for me. So I like the ones that have a name of being easy to use. I've never used plain Debian, for example, but I like Ubuntu. And before Debian people attack me - yeah, I know, I know, it's supposedly much simpler and easier to install these days. But it certainly didn't use to be, so I never had any reason to go for it.
When I reviewed Slackware last month three of my four main criticisms all boil down to ease of use. I drew the ire of some Slackware users for stating that, in my opinion, Slackware isn't user friendly due to it's lack of graphical administration tools, lack of a package manager with dependency checking, and lack of a decent repository of additional software packages. Some even took issue with my using a conventional definition of user friendly, specifically that a distribution be intuitive and relatively easy for even a non-technical user to install, configure, and maintain.
Ease of use isn't just for newcomers. Nobody would question Linus Torvalds' expertise when it comes to Linux or his technical skills yet he stresses ease of installation and ease of keeping a distro up to date. In that context his preference for Fedora and Ubuntu over what he calls "overly technical" distributions makes a lot of sense. While he only names Debian I think we can safely assume that Gentoo and Slackware would fit into this category.
The reason Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva, and SUSE are leading desktop distributions is that they all try, and to a great degree succeed, in allowing users to concentrate on something other than the OS, like the work they want to do with their computer in the first place. All of these distributions allow you to get under the hood to customize and tweak to whatever extent you might want or need. What they don't do is force you to get under the hood just to get configuration done. A large repository means that you aren't forced to compile from source on a regular basis. Linus Torvalds' comments on distributions are in line with what the majority of Linux users I've worked with and talked with over the years prefer, even highly technically competent users.
Linus makes one other point which is worth noting:
Me personally, I'm a believer in choice. Yes, it can be confusing, and yes, it can cause the market to look more fragmented, but on the other hand, it also begets competition. And competition is good - and it's good even within a project. It's what makes people try different things, and it ends up being very motivational.
So I don't personally think we'd have gotten anywhere without all those wild-and-wacky distributions. I'd rather have a bit of spirited discussion and even infighting than a staid landscape with a single vendor (or a couple of vendors who carve out the market)The freedom of choice that the plethora of Linux distributions offer pretty much guarantees that Linux users will always be able to choose a distribution that suits them best. It's clear that for a sizable number of Linux uses that choice will be a Linux distribution like Debian, Gentoo, or Slackware. - iiiears, on 10/08/2008, -1/+21 From Large clusters with thousands of CPUs to single processor appliances smaller than a stick of gum.
I don't think anyone can easily count the number of OSes based on the Linux kernel.
Thank You Mr. Torvalds! - inactive, on 10/08/2008, -0/+16Kubuntu is the worst implementation of KDE in any distro I've ever used.
Arch w/ KDE-mod and OpenSuse are definitely better. Give those a shot. The KDE is especially solid. - PhairOh, on 10/08/2008, -1/+17I'm really not trying to start a flame fest, but I'm going to mention this anyway...
Hasn't Torvalds said in the past that he prefers KDE to Gnome? I can't remember where I saw this, but I'm fairly sure it's true. If that's the case, isn't it interesting that he uses Fedora and mentions Ubuntu (instead of Kubuntu)?
And yes, I know you can install KDE on Fedora and Ubuntu, but since he specifically mentions those 2 for ease of use when installing I found this interesting. - LastDitchHero, on 10/08/2008, -0/+13Cause photoshop is installed on like 90% of all computers world wide? Right?
- javaroast, on 10/08/2008, -2/+15You can't because you'll still be compiling.
- LastDitchHero, on 10/08/2008, -1/+10It isn't a problem with Gnome per se, but with the "users are idiots" that he feels many of the Gnome devs possess. Now granted I like Gnome cause of some of it's simplicity but if you want to click and administer something complicated like say Samba, KDE has far better choices.
Again, we have choices and those are two you can make. - pentalive, on 10/08/2008, -0/+8Depending on your needs it could be right now.
- electricalen, on 10/08/2008, -1/+9I agree 100% with Linus' statement about ease of use not just for newcomers. This is the argument I have been trying to make for some time. It is not beneficial for anyone, Linux veteran or grandma, to have a distribution that crashes to a root prompt on booting the install CD. There is no benefit to anyone to have to search help forums on fixing problems like sound not working, incorrect screen resolution, X not starting up, and no network connectivity.
Some people enjoy the fact that you have to be an expert to get a working and usable system using Linux, but most people, experts and newcomers, just want a computer that works so they can get to important tasks, including Linux development, which I do. - mohtasham, on 10/08/2008, -2/+9I absolutely agree with him.
- BabySlapper, on 10/08/2008, -0/+7Pot calling Kettle...come in Kettle
- inactive, on 10/08/2008, -0/+6I like Ubuntu a lot. It's easy to install and user friendly... You only have to point-and-click to install programs and the ubuntu forums almost always solve any problems I run into.
- ethana2, on 10/08/2008, -0/+6I HATE proper package management!
- jbmcb, on 10/08/2008, -0/+6GIMP and the KDE paint app (forgot what it's called) are very capable, and can do 90% of what even professional photographers would want to do. Same thing with OpenOffice/Koffice, Evolution, etc... They aren't quite as feature-laden or sophisticated as Microsoft Office or Photoshop, but they can do more than most users need.
The only major gaps in the linux application lineup, in my opinion, are a solid, easy to use video editor, a quick, RAD-like database app like Access or Filemaker, and a charting app (nothing comes close to Visio.) The sound editors aren't that great, either - audacity is OK, but still missing some key features that WaveLab/Audition/SoundForge have. Heck, GoldWave is a lot nicer than Audacity, and is actually smaller. - Knet88, on 10/08/2008, -1/+7urg, Kubuntu, I wish they actually focused on ease of use, rather then the original idea being "KDE users are going to hate us for just using Gnome, lets just make a distro that is *all* KDE"
Seriously, I don't think that many new (former windows) users will know that Konqueror is a internet browser. Also, while it should be obvious what Kmail is, again the multiplatform e-mail client is T-bird.
No default Firefox, no default T-bird. If you love all that is KDE, Kubuntu is for you. If you are coming from windows and like applications that might look familiar, and don't all start with 'K' (save for one or two apps), maybe give something else a try.
Don't get me wrong, I like a lot of KDE applications, but there are other programs out there that I think people might recognize better, thus be able to transition easier.
Just my 2¢ - plingboot, on 10/08/2008, -1/+7So when is linux is going to be a viable alternative to windows and osx?
There, fixed that for you - yetAnotherCroc, on 10/08/2008, -0/+5Noob! When I need a program I pick up a needle and a magnet and open up my harddrive.
- oldhick, on 10/08/2008, -0/+5So when is linux going to be a viable desktop alternative to windows and osx?
There, fixed that for you.
Linux is doing just dandy in the server space. - kdesu, on 10/08/2008, -1/+6"I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.
This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.
Please, just tell people to use KDE.
Linus"
From: https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/deskt ... - javaroast, on 10/09/2008, -0/+5Best answer ever. You can add a few notches to your geek card with that answer and of course a digg.
- elementop, on 10/08/2008, -0/+5I started with Slack and have since migrated to Gentoo. I use Knoppix when I need a live CD, and I've played with Red Hat, CentOS, and Corel Linux (yuck!). I really like Gentoo's package management system, though. It's a PITA to install the first time, but then you never have to install again which I *really* like. I've still got a couple of old Slack machines that I'm about to upgrade to Gentoo to patch some vulnerabilities and update libraries.
- Ramble, on 10/08/2008, -3/+8Once you go Gentoo, you don't go back.
- Fratz, on 10/08/2008, -3/+8I bet a lot of people would choose Linux if it came pre-installed as often as Windows.
- Knet88, on 10/08/2008, -0/+5He probably left it at "ubuntu" because it is so damn popular and Kubuntu sits on the back burner and is just there to appease the KDE lovers.
I use (and like) KDE, but I like Firefox, and T-bird, and a lot of other software that doesn't have a 'K' in it. You wont see anything on a Kubuntu LiveCD / fresh Kubuntu install that isn't part of the KDE project. Well, maybe you will, but it isn't likely. - Frasmar, on 10/08/2008, -0/+4Er, MythTV??? WMC is only a reaction to this original Linux innovation.
- SleighBoy, on 10/08/2008, -1/+5Good one, but seriously have you ever boot-strapped with distcc before?
- smotpoker, on 10/08/2008, -0/+4@Aurabolt
There are a lot of games that run on Linux. You emphasize "ALL" as if there were actually 0 when in actuality there are a lot, just not so many mainstream ones.
Also, jbmcb forgot to mention Picassa works in Linux (I think), there is a 'gimpshop' project to emulate a photoshop interface for gimp and there are some other image editors (I haven't tried them all)
@Ramble
I like mythtv + amarok, though mythtv can do almost everything Media Center can do (and some stuff it can't). - Krissam, on 10/08/2008, -0/+4I wonder when digg is gonna get sued for dos attacks.
- oldhick, on 10/08/2008, -0/+4Probably never since you'd have a hard time proving in court that you did NOT want traffic coming to your site.
- MattBD, on 10/08/2008, -0/+4I actually play Homeworld 2 in Wine on Ubuntu. This did work fine in Windows XP, but I can't get it to run at all on Vista.
- santasing, on 10/08/2008, -1/+5"So the only distributions I have actively avoided are the ones that are known to be "overly technical" - like the ones that encourage you to compile your own programs etc.
Yeah, I can do it, but it kind of defeats the whole point of a distribution for me"
Right on. - Fratz, on 10/08/2008, -1/+4Debian is a great framework from which to make user-friendly distros like Ubuntu. There's a need for both the "technical" distros that are powerful in the right hands, and the "normal human" distros that even your boss could use.
- SleighBoy, on 10/08/2008, -0/+3They took the packages page down for security reasons, it's back and is crappy.
Use: http://www.gentoo-portage.com/
The packages may not be in Portage, but you can compile/install them yourself without Portage.
It just sounds like Gentoo was just not a good fit for your setup, that's all. Sorry to hear that, as a happy Gentoo user. - gaucho4, on 10/08/2008, -0/+3I've used Kubuntu, Red Hat (before they went enterprise only), Fedora Core, openSUSE, Ubuntu, Debian, and Slackware. I think I might like Debian the best. I've only just started trying out Slackware so maybe I will change my mind.
- Knet88, on 10/08/2008, -0/+3Wasn't that part of a much longer interview?
What a lot of fluff, I think she is just trying to get more attention for the same article, and this time she didn't really say anything.
What is the saying, "if two people agree on something entirely, one of them is not needed". - elementop, on 10/08/2008, -0/+3Well, let's see...I, for one, have been using Linux on the desktop pretty much exclusively for about four years now. I know of plenty of other people who have been using it exclusively on the desktop for longer than that.
- iiiears, on 10/08/2008, -5/+8 From Large clusters with thousands of CPUs to single processor appliances smaller than a stick of gum.
I don't think anyone can easily count the number of OS'es based on the linux kernel.
Thank You Mr. Torvalds! - SteveMax, on 10/08/2008, -0/+2For my uses, the question would be "so when is Windows going to be a viable alternative to Linux, the BSDs, OS X and other Unixes"?
To use Windows, I'd have to install cygwin or another POSIX-compilant layer. I'd have to go through obscure steps to get gcc, cernlib ( http://cernlib.web.cern.ch/cernlib/ ), root ( http://root.cern.ch ). I'd have to change every single Fortran routine I use, including those I got/will get from other people, to assume it's under Windows and not Unix (and changing Fortran code from other people is never trivial). I'd have to use X11, an ssh server to access the machine remotely, emacs...
At that point, why should I bother? From my point of view, Windows is not ready for (my) desktop. - oobuntu, on 10/08/2008, -1/+3until you get a job. gentoo has no use in the enterprise. "hey sysadmin, get this server installed by 10am". centos server installs in 15 minutes and great stability and support for HP/dell/etc hardware. of course you can pay for RHEL if you can afford it
- safaci2000, on 10/08/2008, -0/+2Corporate America, actually.. corporations overall, love RHEL (Cent OS and Fedora are similar enough that you learn quiet a bit from them ) SUSE is very popular too with corporations. I honestly don't think these distributions are the best out there, but they do provide support, and more importantly someone to blame when stuff doesn't work, and someone to call when it doesn't work.
You will most likely learn a lot more about Linux and how it works by running Gentoo, LFS, or some of the more techie and wacky distro. - BabySlapper, on 10/08/2008, -2/+4Mmmmmm, I am wallowing around in the pure geekiness (probably not a word) of this thread. No politics, no unfounded accusations, no mis-quotes, no "shopped" pics...just lovely techie heaven.
- mmmiiikkkeee, on 10/08/2008, -1/+3I "went back".
I liked gentoo(seriously), but it keep getting in my way. I would find out about program I wanted but some times it would take a long time to compile. IT NEVER TOLD ME HOW LONG A PROGRAM WOULD TAKE TO COMPILE!! that was a problem. I could never plan around the compile time. so many times I had to leave the computer on over night to compile since it did not know it would take so long. that waisted electricity :( ... also many times I would compile a program and it would not do what I wanted without the right cflags set. so I had to recompile it again wait overnight.
yes I know about pre-compiled binaries, but they are not available for all programs, and they don't get converted automatically to compiled binaries. so that stinks(and how would i know to use pre-compiled if it does not tell me how long it takes to compile it???)
then there was the mess of kde-programs having wierd dependencies, and if you upgrade one program the one has unmet dependencies. so i read the for kde4 this was to be worked out. so thats good.
i had to make a corntab to get my updates done regularly. LAME
secruity updates(some of them) were handled by a _separate_ update program that was not feature complete....thats a big reason i left!!! I want to know my security update are updated well.
installing it was easy (to me)
but the IRC was very unfriendly
oh yea and i bet you remember when the main webpage the lists the gentoo packages with version info was down for like a month!!!! WTF that PISSED me off
***and lots of packages that you can get in debian/ubuntu were not in gentoo... LAME!!!
*************************************************************
that said, if they fix/update some things to be more user-friendly I _will_ go back to gentoo. its very cool.
I share my computer with my wife, it needs to easy enough that we can both use the computer - SleighBoy, on 10/08/2008, -1/+31. Where have you worked where a production-use server was expected to be up in a matter of hours (excluding emergencies which are a band-aid until the real server can be fixed)?
2. Using Gentoo w/ a manual Kernel install _is_ a PITA the first time, but once you've got a config and you're using pre-packaged dell/hp/etc servers it's pretty trivial to drop in a production config file for given hardware, compile and have a rock solid kernel. Once again, unless it is an emergency, who sets up a production server in two hours with no planning? And what sysadmin would go along with that request? If you're in a business that is pushing out new server constantly, then you'd have base installs ready to be pushed out to specific hardware. In that case a Gentoo install could be greatly reduced.
3. The thing that sucks up time on a Gentoo install compile time is for the Desktop stuff you would not need/want on a server. A stage3 w/ Apache, Samba, BIND, NTP, MySQL/PgSQL as a base is a pretty short compile time.. esp. with distcc
I'll gladly defend Gentoo, but I will say that for servers the way to go is OpenBSD. No kernel tinkering, fast and simple install, excellent security/features "out of the box" and security/reliability updates are a breeze. - spritom, on 10/08/2008, -0/+2FTA: "So I don't personally think we'd have gotten anywhere without all those wild-and-wacky distributions."
I like that there's wild-and-wacky distros about to push the possibilities, even if a few of them are a distro upon a distro. Distros based upon gaming, Myth's PVR system, etc. Hmmm...there's still a few domain names available...though probably not for long...
torrentbuntu.com
milfbuntu.com
obamabuntu.com
greenbuntu.com
makemoneybuntu.com
oprahbuntu.com (it's gonna be big!)
pr0nbuntu.com
wowbuntu.com
gooutsideandhavealifebuntu.com (probably not as popular) - weizbox, on 10/08/2008, -0/+2Totally agree with the first time installing it being a pain.. esp if you don't know much to begin with, and it seems intimidating from a look at their handbook. Over the years I've more or less realized whats really important and what isn't.. and from the moment I put the CD in to the moment I'm installing the majority of packages (xorg,gnome,firefox,etc) it only takes me about 40min. I love it for it's ease of detailed customization... you just don't have that with other distros :)
- Darkhacker, on 10/09/2008, -0/+1Granted, Linus' needs are vastly different from that of mom and dad so that's to be expected. I think his comment was aimed at power users, but too many people thought it was an attack on Gnome. I think he was just saying that it wasn't suited for power users. I'm sure he'd agree that Gnome is suitable for the average family.
- gaucho4, on 10/09/2008, -0/+1Well, if he did "bless" a distro, you'd probably have a bunch of Linus worshippers or those who are undecided about which to use running over to it. I think it's good that he says what he likes and mentions what he uses. The whole point of Linux really is that there can be healthy competition.
- gaucho4, on 10/09/2008, -0/+1Agreed. openSUSE has an excellent implementation of KDE. On the other hand, Ubuntu has a really good implementation of GNOME.
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