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57 Comments
- 10scjed, on 10/12/2007, -5/+52It is always heartening to see folks take a stand for their beliefs, I wish Jeremy continued luck and success and applaud his taking a stand against this selfish deal.
- raano, on 10/12/2007, -5/+27I'll bet he has a nice office in Google just waiting for him.
- F399SF, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16He's right, this deal will kill Suse.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Absolutely. Things really don't look so good for Novell, and haven't since the late 90's. They seem to constantly just shoot themselves in the foot.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -10/+22Finally.
Someone gives up on being cocky to the employer and sticks to principles instead.
http://boycottnovell.com/2006/12/21/more-novell-goings-jeremy-allison-leaves-novell/ - msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14When Novell made their deal, I immediately spent the next day removing XGL and installing AIGLX. I imagine that SuSE will lose some popularity also. I know I wouldn't recommend it if anyone asked, just because of them being in bed with MS.
- mabhatter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10it's not scare tactics at all... this is one of the guys that started this project... it's his "baby" if you will. While he works for Suse, samba is His project... he's working there so they get "premium" support....as they employ the guys that wrote it. What the MS-Novell deal did was put a huge patent/copyright cloud over all HIS hard work. Novell has inside info with Microsoft and Patent cross-liceneses in place from previous Novell products like Groupwise and Novell Networking prior to Suse. The threat of Novell adding something under actual licenes to Samba in particular is VERY REAL... It's important that even the apearance of code mixing be dealt with swiftly... or else you have another SCO-IBM case where Microsoft claims Novell is "giving away" it's code. Being as the Samba team is very proud of producing a well documented, legally clean, implemenation of windows network sharing the corporate actions are a huge slap in the face to the team itself, not just other linux users. That there's a cloud over his work just makes it worse... not something he should have to deal with.
This isn't a typical employee/employer relationship.. he was recruited by them to work on his own project while they paid his salary. Suse didn't "invent" Samba then he "claimed" it...and he wasn't their employee then. Open source is more like Fashion design or Art... project creators may do their work AT a company, but it's never the COMPANIES work...the work keeps THEIR name, the company can't just clone it and move on. It's a situation uncommon in most engineering/tech jobs where the company owns everything and the engineer is paid the same as a "day worker" with all their work being assumed. It's important that he differentiate that HIS project is not part of the company and is not toeing the company line.
Remember one thing.. Samba lives even after Suse goes away! The code doesn't die unless he allows the company to "poison" it with code that can't be removed or causes too much legal trouble. It's better to get out now, before the ink is even dry, than to stay and risk an executive making a decision that renders the project unusable by the Open Source community.
Samba in particular is the cornerstone of the MS-Novell "arrangement". I find it highly coincidental that MS settled with the EU shortly after this deal was brokered... why? Perhaps when providing "documentation" they poisoned it with some restrictive licensing.. the Samba developers where HIGHLY involved in the EU's case and in evaluating the documentation as both legit and legally usable. In a sense, the EU's suit was aimed at giving Samba the missing bits of info they needed to finish their implementation... that's why it was SO important that it be clean documentation... no source code, no NDAs... just the protocol info needed and no more! The EU understood how Microsoft was trying to "game" the system by attaching strings to the documentation to make it not really free. Since it's been finalized, I wonder how useable that documentation really is?? But anyway, the MS agreement basically makes them out to be "pirates" ahead of time and now "look they're legal" is what MS is FUDing as MS delivered the legally demanded documentation then publicly disparaged the main project that documentation would be used for.... It's about as bad as OJs book about how he "might" have murdered his wife after he got off the murder charge. - jav1231, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Time has almost healed my wounds of Red Hat ditching their Desktop Linux. Novel sleeping with Balmer likely won't heal. Nothing short of an about face will do. Best wishes, Jeremy!
- Matt2k, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Of course he does. Man, he really took a stand! Totally giving up a nice cushy job for his principles, and all that! What a guy!
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=170 - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17Jeremy's example of a "legal hack" version of Exchange is excellent. Microsoft wouldn't stand for it. Why should OSS developers be expected to compromise over the GPL? Everyone knows Microsoft is doing this simply to weaken the GPL. If a high profile OSS figure like Jermey shows he's unwilling to be bought off it helps the whole community.
- jron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8oh no? if this keeps up, gpl3 will force suse to fork and maintain all the packages by themselves.
- jav1231, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14@raynevandunem
Let me translate:
"I like Microsoft. WinXP is better than Linux. This guy is sour grapes."
That about do it, raynevandunem?
Look, Microsoft is evil inherent. Like kicking puppies, molesting children, or or or calling Eminem an artist! These things in life are axiomatic. - aweraw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Maybe you're missing the fact that he didn't send his letters to the media, someone else (presumably @ novell) did... he's officially keeping his mouth shut about it all until the 29th (or there abouts)... so I still fail to see the logic of your reasoning that he's an attention whore.
You on the other hand sound somewhat jealous that he gets kudos for his work/actions, while you live in relative obscurity. I don't mean that to be offensive, but it obvious that a decent number of people care about this story, by way of it hitting the front page of digg and other technology oriented sites. - aweraw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@top 2 comments
You guys just don't understand FOSS. The people who write it, in general, don't particularly care about market share. They do it (mostly) for the love of it... they license their code in the way they feel is in line with their system of ethics. When they see some entity behaving in a way they deem unethical with regard to their choice of licensing, human nature dictates that they're likely to flip the bird and turn their back on them; market share be damned. - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Who cares if he has a job waiting for him, is he supposed to go on unemployment, fast and hold candle light vigils? He chooses to get his paycheck from an employer he agrees with, that is standing on principles. That's a lot more than bitching about it on a message board and doing nothing else.
- Krakn3Dfx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I've been saying since Day One this agreement was a way for Microsoft to completely eliminate Novell and take the Open Source Movement down a few notches in the process. Novell employs over 200 people who are devoted to nothing but Open Source software development, and the endgame for this is the get rid of Novell and that chunk of developers who support OSS.
I don't see any way that will end well that MS will actually support. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I feel sorry for anyone who sleeps with ballmer. All that sweat....
- deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8The US courts have ruled that revese engineering protocols is perfectly legal in most cases. The only time it's illegal is when you are doing it to defeat copy protection or you do it by illegally infringing on patents or outright stealing code. Microsoft doesn't own the patent on file sharing over a network so I really don't see the problem here. Micrsofot is simply doing this to try to scare people away from OSS software.
- aweraw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@Hitchhiker90
You obviously don't follow the FOSS movement then...
Jeremy Allison has contributed a great deal (more than the majority of contributors) of time, effort and code to the samba project. Do you know what samba is, and how widely it is deployed?
Think of it like this: samba is a set of utilities for connecting to windows network shares via CIFS. It is included with just about every Linux distribution of note, and then some... chances are you've used it many times without even realizing.
You saying he is a no-name attention whore is like a single spectator in a stadium filled with thousands of people, calling the fitness trainer of a major sporting team a no-name attention whore, because he walks out on the team for taking drugs.
In the big scheme of FOSS, Jeremy Allison is a major player... you might not think so, but that only proves that you aren't even a peasant in compared to his paladin*
* - warcraft reference, sorry about that - ketsugi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I dunno, I'd hardly call Jeremy Allison a "no-name"...
- msgyrd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Even an about face would leave some scarring. The fact that they even agreed to it in the first place damaged their reputation the most.
- Hush, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Hey slapnuts, what have you written lately, that is used in countless business offices around the world?
- Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6A guy with principles!!!
In the words of basil fawlty: "We should have him stuffed".
Respect Jeremy. Respect. - Markie1006, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think you're getting confused.
Microsoft's plan is Embrace, Extend & Extinguish
Divide-and-conquer has a storied history.
In The Art of War, Sun Tzu writes:
...the art of using troops is this: When ten to the enemy's one, surround him; When five times his strength, attack him; If double his strength, divide him. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Google doesn't hire based on merit, but I bet lots of other companies would like to hire him.
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ raynevandunem
""GNU/Linux is good on the server and, now, on the 3D-ish desktop (Beryl).""
Beryl is next to worthless in day to day use. I can't wait till something actually remarkable comes along.
""As for GNU/Linux as a basic desktop, its not that they suck (unless you have to configure your monitor settings. Then its off to xorg.confland and Google to find an appropriate hack to get you running at 1024x768 rather than 800x600. Man, that was some ***** with both Hoary and Breezy), but that I simply disagree with the constitution rules of thumb which are followed by every distro.""
For the record; the need to edit xorg.conf will be gone by the end of 2007.
I don't know what you mean by 'constitution rule of thumb'.
""For instance, the "software package". Why do Linux distros stick ONLY with software PACKAGES?""
Because it is what makes sense. If you want to use a software installer to install software then you can use it. It is common for games to use installers, and it works.
Software packages are just superior. For example: when I upgrade my operating system I upgrade all my software. Not just the core system. Imagine being able to do that in Windows. Upgrade your browser, upgrade firefox, upgrade your editors, your applications, eveyrthing with the latest security fixes and bug fixes and increased functionality with one command.
""And the lack of drag and drop for apps. WHY?!""
Drag and drop works fine for me in Gnome. Try it some time. - jayhawk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4technically, he didn't "talk;" rather, the letter of resignation was released by someone else. he is remaining silent until after the 29th of December which is his agreement. so, don't fault him for someone else making this a story.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4If you think that MS will suddenly make the samba project redundant with a quality bridge between Windows and Linux then you are being too idealistic. Taking a note from Microsoft's incredible history of fighting open source projects, actions speak louder than words. I'll believe Microsoft is serious about making linux applications more compatible with windows when that actually happens. I'd love to see Micrsoft release Word for Linux(they ported it to OS X) but guess when that will happen. Never. This deal is all about cold hard $$ and FUD against linux. Novell needed cash, suse was insolvent, Microsoft needed FUD, SCO's case went dry. Check back in a few years and you'll see. I guarantee no compatible software will come from this "collaboration".
This guy Jeremy Allison will be able to sleep at night knowing he has followed his heart and hasn't compromised his principles. That's something money can't buy. - aweraw, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7This guy is a major samba developer... to him, you are less than a no-name asshat making laughably uninformed comments on digg.
dip ***** - Markie1006, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4> I'd love to see Micrsoft release Word for Linux(they ported it to OS X)
The fact they ported it to OSX is irrelevant.
Pretty much all the display routines would have to be rewritten to work on Linux (OSX != X-Windows/QT/GTK/KDE/Motif), and it would be a major undertaking. - jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2what makes you think MS doesn't use different tactics?
d&c works great for the linux community if they can get everyone in the community to squabble and get nasty with each other... then things start resembling the early unix days when MS took the lead originally - mabhatter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@deathbaby
the issue is that Novell would have had MS IP from the old days... the hidden accusation of Microsoft is that they "might" have polluted Linux with that IP like the SCO-IBM thing. While the courts agree with reverse engineering, if MS can bloody the water with some doubt about Samba's "cleanness" then MS can fight it later.. or at least use that as FUD to pass around to legal departments of companies interested in Linux. - AWidgetIHaveNot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He did the decent thing. I was, and am still disgusted that Novell even considered this. They will come to regret it in the end. Everyone who partners with Microsoft does. Bite that pillow, Novell, if not now, someday soon.
- rhyme22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Maybe I'm being too idealistic, been guilty of that before. Only time will tell, I suppose.
It could be the famous embrace, extend, extinguish, sure. The fact that it's difficult to tell what shelling out $400 million to Novell actually gets Microsoft definitely makes me suspect that.
But on the other hand, I don't see Microsoft spreading FUD yet. I know it's early, but it actually seems like quite the opposite. Am I really going too far in thinking that maybe the agreement will cause more businesses to accept SUSE Linux as a viable alternative, now that they have an endorsement from a monolith like Microsoft and a guarantee that there will be no legal troubles?
I don't have any illusions about getting compatible software for Linux out of the deal. But maybe, just *maybe*, if there are more corporate users of Linux, there would be more $$ available to purchase Linux software... and thus, the prospect of porting software to Linux (or developing with cross-platform libraries like Qt) will become more attractive to software development companies. - pixelbeat_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Google gets another star:
http://www.pixelbeat.org/docs/google_stars.html - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1So you'd prefer to take the easy route than the hard one, and doing the right thing can go hang unless it's the easier path, or the most financially rewarding.
Welcome to most of humanity, and the cause of most of its problems. - raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@ drag
What about Mac OS's "disk images"?
http://guides.macrumors.com/Disk_image
I'm not really a fan of installers either, especially the ones which take up the entire damn screen. Blergh...
And don't pass off the Beryl project just yet, its evolving quickly. - demonsofgoetia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"it's just software"
It's *****, IMO to say this whole thing isn't important. It isn't "JUST" software.
Computers run the world! (which involves software!)
Free and open source software will win in the end. - vicaya, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1A sweet google offer sure made it easier to "stick to his principles".
Here is a quick reference on free software licenses: ://zooko.com/license_quick_ref.html
I personally would prefer a software license (and would use for all my contributions) with a goal that encourages reuse and quality of software in the long run. I'd use a permissive license with the only restriction being any bug fixes/enhancements to the code (unit tests required) must be made freely available. - rhyme22, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5He's just upset because the MS / Novell deal will effectively kill Novell's need for Samba. It's totally understandable that he would want to leave (they soon won't need him around at Novell), but to me his argument about community relations is bunk. Look, I love Linux (both in principle and in practice), and I also use Windows quite a bit (and actually *gasp* LIKE it), but Linux has needed a better bridge into the Windows world (still 90 + percent of all computers in the world) since its inception.
The MS / Novell deal will make SUSE more attractive to both corporations and the average user. They'll gain market share, no doubt.
You guys that are saying Jeremy is sticking to his principles are missing it. He's just sticking up for his work - Samba. If the MS / Novell deal didn't mean Samba will soon be irrelevant on SUSE and he'd soon be out of a job at Novell, I guarantee he wouldn't be leaving them - MS or not. - raid517, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3Yes major respect indeed. But man... you know, at the end of the day it really is just software.
If it came to a choice for me - there is a certain line I would draw where I might be prepared to work for anyone within reason, if they paid me enough money.
I don't mean work for murderers or rapists, or despots or dictators, or whatever - but when you put things in perspective, it's just software - so it's not exactly life or death - so yeah - you could almost definitely buy me off for the right amount. There are practical things in life I have to worry about, like paying my mortgage and sending my kids to college before I get that worked up over something like this.
The amazing thing I think is how much this guy cares about software. I mean I don't like the deal between Novel and OS - but this guy is giving up his personal finacial security because of it. Or alternatively, maybe Novel just weren't paying him that much? - Bigfootsdick, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6With the exception of the guy with possibly the best user name ever (except me), Deadbaby, you two are morons. FOSS software is vastly superior to that proprietary crap coming out of M$, Oracle, IBM, Sun and
The M$/Novel deal is bad for all of us. - raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5@jav1231
GNU/Linux is good on the server and, now, on the 3D-ish desktop (Beryl).
As for GNU/Linux as a basic desktop, its not that they suck (unless you have to configure your monitor settings. Then its off to xorg.confland and Google to find an appropriate hack to get you running at 1024x768 rather than 800x600. Man, that was some ***** with both Hoary and Breezy), but that I simply disagree with the constitution rules of thumb which are followed by every distro.
For instance, the "software package". Why do Linux distros stick ONLY with software PACKAGES?
With Mac OS X (and sometimes Windows, although that's on a *very* rare case, as with uTorrent), you can just download and run the app. You can install the app if you want, or just keep the app in a folder.
And the lack of drag and drop for apps. WHY?!
Yes, I know that ROX Desktop has it, but that's the only DE that has it. I would enjoy it if the apps which I run felt more like real-world objects, please.
So, to clarify YOUR statement: "I like operating systems or applications which stand by and advance through their own merits rather than rely upon comparative benchmarks against their competitors in order to justify their very existence. Mac OS X is nice. WinXP is boring and backward. Linux distros rarely do anything innovative and rehash whatever developers make available. I can't wait for Haiku. This guy is sour grapes."
Yes, that just about does it. - Matt2k, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3> When Novell made their deal, I immediately spent the next day removing XGL and installing AIGLX.
Hahahaha, you totally SHOWED THEM WHO'S THE BOSS. GG, XGL!! ***** owned!!! - noseeme, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2This video pretty sums up the whole issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NICT3mq5rmE - raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2@ Bigfootsdick
Umm, what are you talking about?
That wasn't even a troll. I just think the guy resigned for more pragmatic reasons other than "I hate M$".
If you resign from a company because of how a deal with another company hurt your petty principles, and your or your project's productivity hasn't been hurt at any point, then that's just ***** retarded. You should've been thrown out on your head a long time ago.
The key here is "productivity". Was he getting paid well? Were the project's in which he worked successful? Did he have ANY problem *whatsoever* with the licensing of the product (it was GPL fercrissakes! That should've been enough!)?
Yes? Well I don't see a problem, and, from his own words (unless they were construed by the media), he was eating some moral ***** soup from the toilet.
Oh, I forgot! That's the same recipe that has been cooked by the Linux media for the past ***** month! Please, we're not full enough of it on Digg, gimme an extra helping!
Mmmm, mmm, good! Moral ***** soup!
/is tired of "Microsoft/Novell", "Linux is better", "MS is teh evil" stories.
/wants more Beryl videos. - jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Great. Microsoft's plan to divide and conquer is in effect. Nice going.
- Bigfootsdick, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1geronimo has it right............
He had another job waiting for him, yep, Im sure he gets courted all the time because he is smart, creative and has the right outlook regarding software.
....but I respect your trolling, nice attempt but next time use a racial slur or something. Thats what I do and I get blocked and/or dugg down all the time. - raynevandunem, on 10/12/2007, -15/+10It's kinda easy for him to talk. He already had a job at Google waiting for him.
The "beliefs" thing sounds more like "Stick it to the Man" grandstanding than a break-up necessitated by serious flaws on the part of Novell which hurt any of his productivity.
Plus, since Samba reverse-engineers Microsoft's protocols, the result of which is used by Novell and others, it was obvious that they'd be royally-pissed by any cooperative dealings with MS by one of their major corporate clients, with whom they had a vested interest.
Hence, this is just a withdrawal of that vested interest, in order to steer as clear of MS as possible, due to the aforementioned reverse-engineering. Any touching contact between Samba and MS would give Samba a major fit of allergies.
That's the only reason I can see for resigning from Novell: being connected to a project that involves any MS networking IP (the type that Steve infamously referred to).
I don't see any morals behind this (and refuse to. Morals are for Bible-thumpers). Instead, I see the glaring pragmatics behind this resignation, and wish him luck at Google (the archetypal dream job at the moment).
/has used both OpenSuSe and Ubuntu, neither of which could cooperate with my desktop.
/hearts GoboLinux
/uses WinXP - Hitchhiker90, on 10/12/2007, -9/+2@aweraw
I've been in this industry probably longer than you have. I'm aware of what samba is so I don't need an explanation on it. So he created an open source application. Big friggin deal. No one told him to do it. So like I said, attention whore. Now that I think about it most people involved with FOSS are self righteous attention whores. RMS anyone? -
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