What is Digg?Sponsored by Travelzoo
Take Advantage of Ridiculously Low Holiday Airfares view!
travelzoo.com - Flights $52 and up for Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Year. But move on it now.
46 Comments
- Metaleks, on 11/29/2008, -1/+29As a Java developer I have to say that I'm STILL impressed (years later) that Java was opened up to the community. Well done, Sun.
- SmellyGeekBoy, on 11/29/2008, -9/+33"Saying that Java is great because it works on all operating systems is like saying that anal sex is great because it works on all genders" - Anon
- danskal, on 11/29/2008, -3/+14I don't get where the article is trying to go - it blames Java for not being standardized on Linux, and then it blames Java for having a standard which JVM implementors must stick to.
The fact is, I agree fully with Sun, that Java without the standardization provided by the TCK is almost worthless. Compatibility is a massive issue in IT, especially when you go cross-platform. The TCK, backed up by Sun's heft is one of the main things that gives java the success it has today. Java would never have made it into so many phones if Sun had let phone vendors implement a JDK to some much lower or just divergent standard.
p.s. anyone asking for better performance, you should know that Java programs can easily perfom better than C/C++ equivalents (unless you fancy writing an optimized JIT compiler and an efficient garbage collector for your c program). The Java runtime monitors usage of a programme at runtime, and can recompile the program to run more effiiciently, which a statically compiled application just cannot do. Also, 2002 called - they want their talking points back. - stillmilking, on 11/29/2008, -0/+9Best quote ever
- klitzbtc, on 11/29/2008, -1/+9The debug is certainly not "useless", it's rather convenient in most cases. Then problem is with Java in general, too bloated, consumes too much memory and cpu, trash collector might as well be deprecated, lack of support for ALL data types not just the 5 that Sun thinks are the only ones people need, horrible communication with other languages or database engines.
Last project I was forced to do in Java will be just that, my last.
It's funny that the title of the article is "Java and Linux - an open marriage in search of success", because I feel if you're using Linux and thinking about using Java as a development solution, you're just out of your mind entireiy. I'm looking forward to what openjdk can make of that nightmare Sun JDK, but if you're on a linux machine, I suggest PHP, Python, or Perl.
It'll save you a lot of headaches, and those languages are almost always more robust and manageable than Java could ever dream of. - Herolint, on 11/29/2008, -0/+7I don't care much for Java because it is too wordy and is convoluted in many respects. However, I don't recall thinking debug was a major annoyance. Care to elaborate?
- klitzbtc, on 11/29/2008, -0/+7Well unfortunately I have done A LOT of development in Java. I may be dating myself here, but Java was the second language I was ever taught, back when I was using Borland to do C++, so I'm not "industry"-hardened with Java, but I do have roughly 8 years of experience with it.
I know all of the popular databases have free drivers for usage inside of Java, the problem is getting them to work properly. I've done java work with mySQL, Oracle, and sqlLite, and I guess the real problem isn't "communication" per say, but it's most certainly interpreting the data once extrapolated from the database. This "last project" I speak of was using Java and MySQL, and while the driver installed fine, and it seemed like there was a good communication between the two, it took myself and 3 other people almost 2 weeks to get readable and manageable data in our Java app.
So after that, and a few other bugs, I ported the entire branch of the project over to PHP, and all of our problems were solved in no less than 3 days.
When I speak of data types and memory management, I'm almost always criticizing Java with C++ or C in mind.
And my problem with Java is the same as with Windows, I hate sitting back and "hoping" that whatever builtin function I just called did its job properly, and I'm speaking specifically about garbage collector. As far as I know, there's really no way to determine if you've gained back the total amount of memory. Even trying to destroy the object doesn't guarantee you anything. And lets not even get into multimedia memory leaks, cause I could go on for days.
I know from previous experience, and people I know in the field, that considering Java as any tier in a web application is just a bad bad mistake. ESPECIALLY with how incredibly versatile PHP has become.
I don't really know what I'm getting at here, but I can say this: Sun has ruined Java, and the fact that they rely on backwards compatibility more than developing the framework into an efficient and more robust system, has only bloated it and made it ALMOST unmanageable. They're really losing ground in a lot of places where you're starting to see some of these "up and coming" languages really shine. Java will not be like C or COBOL and linger around forever, without an openjdk or Sun miracle I don't see it being used in the enterprise setting for much longer. - Haplo, on 11/30/2008, -0/+6Hey clueless, most interpreted languages that require some performance *are* compiled. For example, Perl *is* compiled. And don't get me started on 3rd party libraries, it's what makes Perl great (CPAN).
- inactive, on 11/29/2008, -1/+6Uhhhhhhh...
what? - inactive, on 11/29/2008, -6/+11Java needs to hit the gym before the wedding.
- daftman, on 11/30/2008, -0/+5> has to be compiled (interpreted languages don't)
Compiled down to byte code, which is then interpreted. Just like python and c#
> JVMs tend to be picky (have to deliver VM with the app)
Same as any language. C#, Python, Ruby. They all have VM
>programs tend to require 3rd party libs (poor package management)
There are are more libraries written in java than python and ruby and c#. Look at maven for package management - idobi, on 11/29/2008, -2/+6"...they only did because they had nothing to lose--python has practically stolen java's seat, and that's just one of the competitors that clearly outclasses java."
- kavalirokavaliro
In my opinion, statements like the above are completely baseless. Java is one of the most used technologies in the world. Search Dice.com and you will find 10x more jobs listed for Java skills then Python, and almost twice that of C++. Also, keep in mind that the release of Python 3 endangers its own future because of the the lack of backward compatibility. Having studied and used the language D, I believe it has a brighter future than any currently popular language; though, still immature. - pyite, on 11/29/2008, -0/+4I was working with Java and Linux back when Java first came out. There is a nice warm spot in hell for the Sun people for not properly opening up Java from the beginning.
For starters, there would have been no need for Flash to come along at all if Sun had made it easier for developers to deploy Java. To this day it is still not possible for a Linux distribution to include a proper Sun Java runtime.
Better late than never, I suppose, but their lack of foresight cost them dearly. They will have to beg forgiveness before I will ever be enthusiastic about using Java. - brettalton, on 11/30/2008, -0/+4@klitzbtc:
Please become a professor; schools need more teachers that understand the flow of open source. The dean of CS at my local university is teaching nothing but C# (not even C, C++ or Python). Wow. - adolfojp, on 11/29/2008, -2/+6http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/gp4/benchmark.ph ...
- brettalton, on 11/30/2008, -1/+5Show me a fast running Java application... Azureus/Vuze? No. Limewire/Frostwire? No. IPBlock? No. Eclipse? Nope!
What about fast C applications? Transmission, Pidgin, GIMP, Songbird, most GNOME applications, etc. I won't even get into Linux, because I doubt a kernel would ever be developed in Java...
C++? Firefox, Miro, etc. - widgetking, on 11/29/2008, -0/+4Nuff' said.
- Daniel591992, on 11/29/2008, -3/+6Bad teacher maybe?
- hmemcpy, on 11/29/2008, -8/+11-Knock knock
-Who's there?
*Very long pause...
-Java - beerwench, on 11/29/2008, -0/+2thank schwartz for all this
- laelfrog, on 11/30/2008, -1/+3Java the Language or Java the Virtual Machine (JVM)? It is a lot faster now than it was in its former years. Language Support? Sure -> Try Groovy, JRuby, Jython, Clojure, Scala or others. - The JVM is not going away anytime soon.
- omgwtflawl, on 11/30/2008, -1/+3Java is quite fast as it stands now. What are you using it for where you want for speed?
- rolf, on 11/29/2008, -0/+2May the schwartz be with you!
- widgetking, on 11/29/2008, -0/+2klitzbtc, I can't digg you up enough. Well stated! I've been in the business for 20 years now and seen Java in action from the beginning and all you say is right on the money. About the manageable part, is seems that if you don't work on a java project for a while and then need to use a new version of java, you have to re-tool/relearn it. On top of that, using some of the frameworks forces you to learn multiple other frameworks, so much for encapsulation. Once you do that, it does work, but then the memory and CPU usage becomes an issue.
- inactive, on 11/29/2008, -2/+4I love mai java
I've got it working on my Ubuntu 8.10 smoothly :D - kungPow, on 11/29/2008, -2/+4It would be nice if they could do things a little faster. They are years behind scala now, and Javafx has been in development for 2 years now but it still really isn't ready for prime time, not to mention they have no official Linux version.
But they are headed in the right direction now with 6u10 and version 7. - kavaliro, on 11/29/2008, -1/+2The day they announced it should have been the day they released it. Then it would have been a bigger deal.
Having said that, while it's great that they took the plunge, they only did because they had nothing to lose--python has practically stolen java's seat, and that's just one of the competitors that clearly outclasses java. They should have moved on this about 2 years ago in order for it to have any real impact. My $0.02. - beerwench, on 11/29/2008, -0/+1haha :)
- inactive, on 11/30/2008, -1/+2FTW!
what?
Well what would you rather do
System.out.println (java sux);
or
print java sux;
or echo 'java sux' ;
Writing code for 50, 60 , 70 % of what you need or would you prefer 20%? - klitzbtc, on 12/01/2008, -0/+1meh all they teach at my school is C++, Java, SQL, Assembler, and COBOL.
This coming semester is my last, and they want me to take their Web Applications course, but it's Java with Java appliances and Jakarta Struts, LOL. I'd rather rub broken glass into my eyes.
It's sad to see how much emphasis schools place on Java being the only OO language worth teaching. I'm hoping with PHP 6 that'll change some peoples opinions, and hopefully usher in with it, a better understanding and acknowledgement of open source. - ifknot, on 11/29/2008, -1/+2oɐɯן
- moduc, on 11/29/2008, -2/+3@klitzbtc
I have to disagree. I develop Java on Linux without any problem. Communication with databases? Unless you work on some not so popular databases, most of the databases have free drivers.
The communication with C, C++ is a bit awkward, but there are wrapper out there, and I tested them out with amazing ease (just like calling another API). Even with JNI, it's bad, but not that bad.
On the other languages, there are active development supporting them.
There are of course problem with any language/platform. You can sit and criticize it all you want to. However, I have been developing many applications from desktop, enterprise/multi-tier to web app and made a decent living on it without any problem. Surely, memory is big, but not with my program. Mostly with the IDE. But it's getting cheaper (memory) everyday that's it's almost not an issue. So, it's workable, but not perfect.
I haven't encountered a problem with data type. So you may experienced a special case, and what you said doesn't apply to many other people.
I am sure there is a large Java eco system out there. There are people who complain about Java, and there are people working well with it, making a living on it, and Java serves them well. - guyvdb, on 11/30/2008, -1/+2http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmar ...
- ijollyman, on 11/29/2008, -2/+2Java is actually the only language I know, and I thought it was really simple and had great concepts when I learned it.
- omgwtflawl, on 11/30/2008, -1/+1HA! Just wait until you get to a language that doesn't have the excellent documentation that java does, or you have to maintain a system in a language that allows the users to do stupid things (such as operator overloading). You'll beg for those petty Java annoyances to come back.
Not to say Java is perfect, the lack of unsigned types has bitten me a few times, but overall it is a very good language. - arjie, on 11/29/2008, -2/+2Ha ha, I saw this ad just a few hours ago on a popular tech website:
http://mini.arjie.com/uploads/java-speed.png - Kragnerac, on 11/29/2008, -6/+6Python.
- Archer007, on 11/29/2008, -2/+1Every time I have looked at API documentation since learning Java, I've thought: Why can't this be more like the Java API docs?
- arjie, on 11/29/2008, -4/+3- Java who?
- Javanna go out and get some coffee? Ha ha ha. - techdever, on 11/29/2008, -7/+5just make java at least 3 times faster than it is now without adding any more (bloated) features and it will be great.
- djangoxl, on 11/29/2008, -3/+1How did you come up with this analogy?
Ha ha ha, great quote. - bnolsen, on 11/29/2008, -6/+2Run linux on everything, even at work. Not interested in Java, it's not installed on any machines intentionally.
Honest java tries to be too much and does nothing well.
What it suffers from:
- has to be compiled (interpreted languages don't)
- JVMs tend to be picky (have to deliver VM with the app)
- programs tend to require 3rd party libs (poor package management) - kunet, on 11/29/2008, -5/+0i don2 like
- ethana2, on 11/29/2008, -9/+4Java : Wasting 9 out of 10 CPU cycles helps us forget that Windows isn't posix compliant.
OpenOffice : If we made a REAL office suite, somebody could get angry.
OpenSolaris : ZFS + Linux would cause the world to explode.
SPARC : Proof that no micro-architectural advancements will save you when you're two process nodes behind.
Sun : Are We Dead Yet? - inactive, on 11/29/2008, -10/+3They might as well...
Java development had stalled for years..
The debug is useless.. - doshindude, on 11/29/2008, -12/+6Java is an incredibly frustrating and annoying language to program in. After 2 years of doing it in school, I'm sick of it.
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is 