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- LocDawg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7After reading the article it think it's clear that they are not aiming to find favor among most desktop users. It appears that they are concerned solely with speed and functionality. While it's certainly not the nicest looking WM I've seen, I find the extensive keyboard commands (and the fact that it's designed to use them so well) very appealing. Face it, if you really KNOW key commands you can execute them MUCH faster than navigating around with a mouse. This is the niche they are trying to fill.
- MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Why should I make my machine easy for others to use, at the expense of 1) clutter, and 2) processor overhead?
- Criterion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I find it funny that it does have screenshots and you, for whatever reason, didn't see them. It's a link in the 3rd paragraph. Easy.
http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/intro.html#screenshots - hahiss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If this sort of thing interests you, you might also check out WMII:
http://wmii.de
It works to combine the best elements of Ion, LarsWM, Ratpoison, Plan9, and some other stuff. I really like it; I've not used any other WM since I found this one---in part, because it does away with WIMP-style controls altogether. - crythias, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2But.. that's why a multi-user *nix computer can have their choice of Window Manager... If you're working on someone else's logon, they can be running KDE, GNOME, XFCE, whatever, and when you're on your logon, you can have ION, Ratpoison, fluxbox...
- DPThought, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2PS: Ion is not about beeing minimal.
It is about doing the right thing and let you work.
It is ugly i know. But you will never see what ion is all about if you don't use it or see anyone use it. - loftx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I'm just trying it now - it seems to work quite well for whole window tasks like web browsing or when you want multiple windows on the screen like for programming and things. Dialog boxes are horrible though and you copying files using a gui (nautilus etc) is very strange. The menu seems very annoying as well - I would much rather a rightclick menu like in fluxbox etc.
I do like the frame idea - it's an easy way to maximize your desktop space without spending ages resizing windows. - starvo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2A bit too minimal for me. I'll stick with a stripped down blackbox. It's ugly, but terribly functional.
- benplaut, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@halik
cd e[tab]cr[tab]m[tab]s[tab]
About 4 seconds. - pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I think the statement is supposed to pique your interest. I guess it failed. I agree with it wholeheartedly though. Floating windows are one of the worst UI ideas ever.
- LegendarySock, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Fluxbox FTW.
Although Ion is probably one of the least consuming windows managers out there, its not very pretty. Fluxbox on the other hand is beautiful if configured properly and is, although a little more bloated then this one, still consumes less resources. - crythias, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2But you don't have to use the mouse in your file manager. You don't have to use your mouse to bring up the file manager. If you have midnight commander installed, the equivalent keystrokes reduce your argument.
- folletto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Dudes, go check out GOMS studies.
And, damn, the difference from a GUI and a CLI is that you don't have to memorize anything. The objective of the GUI is to put the interface right before your eyes, in an intuitive way. The CLI is surely faster for many tasks, but ONLY if you KNOW what to do. In the example above, you have to KNOW that the folders are there with that name.
And this is only the top of the iceberg. ;) - kotnik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hey, but imagine you spend 2/3 of your computer time in EMACS or VIM. You'd prefer your fingers never leave the keyboard.
Every peace of software has it's advantages ;) - nferrier, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1it's ok... there are so many minimal wms now though. None of them do what I want.
I still use enlightenment 16. I hardly use any features of the window manager at all and often think I could swap it out for one of these tiny wms. But I never quite can because ehas one feature that other window managers just haven't implemented as well: virtual desktops. I only have 2 virtual desktops but they are to me invaluable.
Note that virtual desktops are not the same as multiple desktops.
But how I wish other window managers did virtual desktops as well as e16 does. - jcholewa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@nferrier
Aren't "frames" in tabbed window managers the same thing, more or less, as virtual desktops?
In Windows 2000, I have an X session using ion that I usually treat like a tabbed command line window (ie, a bunch of rxvt instances when you open a new frame). But when I hit ALT+2, it goes to an entirely new frame with different tabs and a different active window -- I use that frame for knode and sometimes konqueror, but I hit ALT+1 to get back to my rxvt tabs. This seems pretty similar to virtual desktops to me, except that you don't get the little boxes that you click on to change your active desktop. - ReiToei, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ion is targeted at heavy key command users, and for these people it works great.
No, it's not for everyone, as stated on their web site. It's not *supposed* to be a point and click environment. - Blitzenn, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Having worked in this industry for decades now, it amazes me that after all of this time, there are still people who prefer the old terminal emulator/session 'look and feel'. Granted, the extra trinkets you get with other interfaces mainly chew up horsepower and consume resources, but they serve a purpose that is widely unappreciated. Ever walk up to someone else's machine that has changed their 'theme' and all of the icons are substantially different than you expect. Even a seasoned veteran can find it difficult to immediately put their finger on the trash bin icon or a 'my computer' equivalent. It should serve as a clear indicator that it is in our nature to relate symbols (or icons) back to a purpose. Change those and the meaning is lost to you. That intuitive first glance at a picture that gives you a tremendous amount of meaning is quite important. I am sorry, I choose not to throw away symbolism as a resource to leverage in expediting my efficiency.
- gcube9x, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1bblean? If that's what you're using, i feel the only thing i don't really want is the multiple desktops (i use it with windows). I think it's a bit too easy to accidently switch an app to another desktop and it's annoying to figure out how to get to it. The only way to do a truly multiple-desktop system is with two monitors, honestly.
- stevex0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I like jwm. It makes fluxbox which is also great look bloated. There is one simple xml file which can be edited to add or remove things from the menu and thats about it.
- crythias, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It is as efficient as anyone who's accustomed to using the command line can tell you. Time spent with a hand off the home keys is wasted time. If you need a mouse, it's because you are relying on someone else to provide your user interface.
It's why emacs and vim still are debated as among the best editors. They do the job and don't get in the way of work. It's also why (IMHO) Wordperfect 5.1 DOS was one of the best word processors ever. A mouse is a distraction for the power users because it distracts them from the task at hand -- stuff that is keyboard centric should stay that way, and not rely on the mouse to do common and repetitive tasks. - pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1How is this about context menus? Sure, those are a horrible interface. I don't use them at all. Hotkeys, on the other hand, which Ion uses a lot of, IIRC, are the fastest thing since thinking.
- DPThought, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Because managing windows is the windowmanagers job. :) (Ok this comes from LarsWM but it fits perfectly to ion)
I love it. It increases productivity in a way you would not believe.
But you need some time to get into it. It i a quite ugly window manager. But you will see the beauty if you use it..
Also worth mentioning is WMii http://wmii.de/ (I never got into it but it hast quite the same approach but looks better and has some advanced features) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1And that is exactly the thing that many don't understand, and they pass it off as another simplistic and impractical wm.
- spiffytech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ion looks like something I'd like to try. Does anyone know where I can get an RPM for Suse 10.1?
- b7j0c, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i like fluxbox also, but 'top' on my box shoes be at 99% idle in gnome or fluxbox or whatever. and this is not a new computer. once you are running firefox, you can forget "lean and mean" anyway, you will at a minimum be running gtk libs and other heavy consumers. really the only completely lightweight environment is the console.
- Moparx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Ion seems nie.
I personally use Openbox and I dont see myself ever switching - spiffytech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I compiled from the source code on Suse 10.1. I just YaST'ed the *-devel versions of the required packages and it went great. Created ion.desktop (in some folder like /usr/share/somethingorother, I think) and selected it from the login screen. Looking good!
- bootyfarm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If a minimalist, no-nonsense window manager is your aim, evilwm is the way forward:
www.6809.org.uk/evilwm - kotnik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The most important thing ION enables is keyboard. I hate using this mouse imitating thing on a laptop, and with ion I never have to touch it. That's the real advantage of minimalistic WMs like ION is.
I use computer for coding, writing and web stuff... Hell, Firefox is the only app I use mouse in. - yushi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm still using E16 as well. Virtual desktops aside, the ability to set stacking layers, window grouping and having the windows remember what I want them to do every time I open the apps are a few of the most useful features to me. I've never been able to get any other window managers to do it quite as well. Not to mention that I can set individual windows to "click to focus" while the rest of my windows use the sloppy focus. Hopefully E17 will be just as nice when it is completed (because right now it simply sucks).
- slack31337, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@ LegendarySock
Fluxbox FTW.
I agree the best window manager EVAR you can pretty it up or keep it lean and mean - emjo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Not really... It's not about buttons in ion, you actually have one button per window in ION, rather they have removed the option of having floating windows, almost everything is static.
- xxNIRVANAxx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Amen
- WinterSolstice, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'm going to chip in my 2 bits and say "Ugh". I grew up on VT220s, 3270s, WYSE terms, and horrible things like CDE. I'll take the newer interfaces over that crap ANY day. The only advantage a window manager like that has over a decent multi-screen multi-window interface is speed. Hardly even that. I'll agree that the spinning cube model in use in some operating systems may be a bit much, but the floating window is a must.
-WS - sailor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"Why do linux people always insist that the less buttons and afordnaces you have, the more "efficent" the user interface is? "
The gui interface is always going to cost you in resources...console applications are faster in operation than apps with a gui frontend....this is a fact.
Linux users know that they can also setup a alias...look it up :p - crythias, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Ion is quite nice. I use it as if it were Xscreen. It's quite nice and it is out of your way.
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I tried wmii and it seemed like a mess. I couldn't get it to do what I wanted, which is to tile windows. I ended up with some PekWM style tabs or something. So back to Ratpoison for me. Is it as quirky as it seems?
- evvk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Umm.. In a WIMP GUI you have remember _where the fscking buttons are behind the zillion levels of dialogs_, and _remember a zillion totally unintuitive icons_. In a command interface you use more or less natural commands; type part of the name and let the system figure out the rest.
- dukeinlondon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I have a 1600x1200 at home and dual 1280x1024 at work and what I'd like is indeed a window manager that makes best use of space when I select a window.
If I browse a web site designed for 1024x868 screen then, the browser should automatically be sized to show me just that. If I switch to a kaudiocreator, it should reduce the browser only so much as to display everything there is to see in kaudiocreator.
I realise that a window manager might not be able to do that without application feedback about the size of what it has to display but still, it'd be nice. But full screen, keyboard only, that's not really for me. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I haven't seen anything so ugly since Irix
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1What's so great about floating windows? They're a huge pain in the ass.
- halik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0@crythia
Command line interface is not universally faster than UI - I'm positive I'd be faster navigating to /etc/cron/cron.monthly/scripts/ if I had / open in any file manager. It's 4 clicks versus multiple keystrokes and tabs.
Also the studies I've seen suggest that even most proficent keystroke people make mistakes that slow them down past GUI editot users. I can't count how many times I've done :Q in vi (as opposed to :q) because my fingers stayed on shift too long. - HighTechGeek, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@benplaut
click-click-click-click
less than 1 second. - folletto, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0A "link" isn't a "screenshot", you see. It's a basic of page layouts. Putting a link to some shots isn't the same thing of putting the screenshot - or the thumbnail - into the page. And for an article that talks about something that IS an image... well... doesn't "feel" good when you read the page. :)
- Rickard, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1http://modeemi.fi/~tuomov/ion/screenshots/ion2-12.png
Thanks, but I'll pass. - halik, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1Why do linux people always insist that the less buttons and afordnaces you have, the more "efficent" the user interface is? It's the same crap that everyone had to deal with in Gimp 1.x, where every single function was hidden in a contextual menu. If you do any HCI work at all, you'll know that point and click (icons and such) is a lot faster than navigating a multilevel contextual pop up or dropdown menu.
That ION wm is about as efficent as twm and all the other 80s reliqs - Sartori, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2I find it intriguing that the article has no screenshots.
That aside, I went along to the Ion site and checked it out. As soon as I saw the first sentence, which starts "So-called "modern desktop environments" are totally unusable..." I knew that this wasn't gonna be for me.
You see, if they're unusable, what the hell am I doing just now? Idiotic statements like that are not going to make me look favourably on a project.
The screenshots looked ok, if a bit too minimal for my taste. I'll stick with Windows, thanks! - emjo, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Yeah I think you are head on, and I'm one of those that like the terminal/"full screen" look. Basically I think it's just the wannabe elite kids that think ION/ratpoinson is good. A desktop environment really is a good thing, it helps people do stuff directly.
I think the main reason to use the minimal WMs is when you don't do much with your computer, e.g. I code, surf, and do some image composing. All these programs work best in full screen, since they are all single window applications. Now if I want to use Photoshop (Gimp), I would require a desktop environment, because it's so much easier to handle the photoshop UI work that way.
But your most important point, really is that you don't want to confudse other/new users.
Yes I called my self an wannabe elite.
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