What is Digg?67 Comments
- silas, on 10/12/2007, -7/+20"You see, Linux is only a kernel"
Beautifully said. Too bad it's also rarely said, and more people should refer to the Linux that they use as GNU/Linux. Nonetheless, it's a great article. Digg. - bieber, on 10/12/2007, -7/+19I'd say that naming an entire operating system after a tiny piece of it is far more zealous. GNU was around long before Linux, and had a complete operating system, sans kernel, when LInus came along, with a kernel in development.
The reason it's important to call it GNU/Linux, though, is not because of credit, but because of philosophy. When people used just pieces of GNU, they would be receptive to reading articles about the GNU philosophy, because they knew they were using GNU and liked it. They might not agree, but at least they'd give it a read. Calling it all Linux, on the other hand, tends to lead people toward Torvalds' philosophy, which is that all software licenses are acceptable and should be obeyed, and all that matters is that the software is produced; freedom is irrelevent.
Remember, at least the FSF doesn't want to call it Richardix. - FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I wonder how many digg users have actually compiled a Linux kernel. :)
- leszek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9it doesn't bloat the kernel at all because you can choose what goes in the kernel if you compile it yourself.
If you don't compile your own kernel, most of the drivers are compiled as modules so only the drivers you need are part of the kernel. - trogdoor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8""Simple to tell: The loadable module support offers us the possibility to compile drivers and start them without rebooting. I don't have to say much about Windows XP and rebooting, do I?"
Huh? You can do this in XP too... or in Win 98 for that matter. Ever plug in a USB device? Wow... it loads a driver for it! And I don't have to reboot. AMAZING! (For 1995.)"
Yes, when you plug in a USB device it _loads_ the drivers, it does not install them. And I have never installed device drivers in Windows and been able to use said device without rebooting. I have however compiled new video card 'drivers' in Ubuntu and restarted X, not the entire operating system, with the new better GPU acceleration, all while still running Apache in the background. Let's see XP do that.
""EFI could be the successor of BIOS, and Microsoft already told, they don't want to support this option."
That may be the case, but guess who helped create EFI... that's right, Microsoft. It was their initial Longhorn research push that helped draft the EFI standard and get Intel to move on making it a reality."
Yes he may have mis-spoken about Microsoft's motivation but that doesn't change the fact that Linux has already added a feature that Microsoft has been bragging about but still hasn't been able to implement.
""If you pull them in a Windows box, the number of hard disks, the number of card readers and the configuration of virtual CDROMs (Deamon-tools) will determine the letter that is assigned to the USB-stick."
Or you can manually set the drive letter at will... which people who do if they cared, which almost none do."
Key word in your sentence is manually. In Windows you can _manually_ set the drive letter. If you are using a script, which is why he wants the mount points consistent in the first place, then the point is you want the process automated. In Ubuntu I have it set up so that my thumb drive mounts in one place and my 160 GB external mounts in another. However they may be connected. Even if I use a USB hub or even am using my 160 GB drive as the hub to which my thumb drive is connected, it still mounts in the same place. Let's see XP do that.
"Looking through these "innovations"... I don't really see any. I see them adding support for stuff that other people support, or that are easily supported through add ons."
If that is true could you please give a link to the XP add ons for:
Booting XP from EFI
Installing device drivers and useing them without rebooting
Recognizing and correctly mounting drives automatically in any configuration they may be connected
And those are just the features _you_ quoted. - Web_Weasel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7The poor NTFS support is because MS does not publish the specs for NTFS and changes it around from time to time. They've done a pretty good job shooting at a moving target with a blindfold on.
- eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Actually its a very common thing to do -- once you've done it a couple times, it's no longer intimidating, and you look forward to new kernel releases with a weird sort of nerdy glee.
- crackSquirrel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Not sure, but I know that I am definately more inclined to do it now, than I was before reading the article.
- FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I like how there's an 'internet/internet explorer' type issue going on with some Linux users...
Like how many people think Linux and GNOME or Linux and KDE are the same thing.
For the record, if you're trying to add features to your desktop environment, re-compiling the Linux kernel isn't going to do that. [ unless you're into adding HAL support... but there's a lot more than re-compiling the kernel if that's your issue ] - hater2win, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Good read, plain and simple.
- DoctorShim, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7In computer science the kernel is the core of an operating system. It is a piece of software responsible for providing secure access to the machine's hardware and to various processes (computer programs in a state of execution). Linux is a kernel, not an operating system (OS). However, Linux is often combined with various programs, many from the GNU Foundation, which then form a complete operating system. Gentoo, Mandrake, RedHat, are such operating systems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_%28computer_science%29 - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Centinall: FYI unused hardware modules aren't loaded. In fact they're not even compiled unless you decide to do so. The only "bloat" is maybe 5-10MB of source code sitting on your hard drive.
- debian_, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5root@jupiter:/home/rc
You're in the wrong directory. Try /usr/src/linux - willia4, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I was expecting to see more along the lines of the O(1) scheduler. Linux has a ton of good stuff going on behind the scenes that never make it to the configuration menus. "Where's that article", asks the person too ill-informed to write it himself.
- FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think I'm one of the only fluffies. ;-)
What really upsets me though, is ATI doesn't make ppc-linux drivers for the ATI Radeon X600 Pro. So as much as I want to keep using Linux, I'm stuck with Mac OS X untill someone figures it out. :-)
I like OS X, but no Linux really makes me feel sad. :-( - joh6nn, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9"GNU was around long before Linux, and had a complete operating system, sans kernel, when LInus came along, with a kernel in development."
how is an OS, sans kernel, anything near complete? HURD (excuse me, Gnu/HURD) is STILL barely usable, something like 15 years later. Stallman needs to get over the fact that, despite all the other thing he's accomplished, HIS Gnu OS project has been a failure. His continued whining that the Gnu utilities don't get any headline credit is a ridiculous claim that we all think Linux could have been successful without Gnu's help, something no one with an ounce of sense has ever claimed. Stallman and his most zealous supporters are like the people who kick up a fuss that JavaScript should be called LiveScript. Well guess what: that ship has sailed, and it's time to shut up and move on. - 413x, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3time for diggpolls! ;)
d'oh! stupid me. this should have been a reply to Fluffy Armada. - eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Huh? You can do this in XP too... or in Win 98 for that matter. Ever plug in a USB device? Wow... it loads a driver for it! And I don't have to reboot. AMAZING! (For 1995.) In fact, the NT kernel is, in principle, far more modular than the Linux kernel thanks to its roots in VAX. Alas, it's sloppy programming that usually results in a reboot, not the kernel. In addition, it's usually removing, not adding, drivers that causes the need for a reboot."
WTF? The NT kernel has some hooks in it that lets you load in device drivers. It does not, however, let you unload them. How is it not the fault of the kernel that you can't upgrade or unload your drivers without rebooting? In fact, how is it not the fault of the kernel that you have to reboot Windows for anything other than a kernel upgrade? The idea that Windows borrows from VAX is a bunch of marketing BS that Microsoft pumps out to nerds. I've never seen any evidence to support such a claim
In Linux, I can download the source for a module (driver) I need, compile it, and then load it into the kernel. If something doesn't work, I can unload it and then recompile it and load in the new driver. If a program relies on a new driver, I can stop that program (or bring the system to a lower runlevel) and build a newer module, and then restart that service -- all without rebooting. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Linux and GNU are huge contributions to the OS that is usually called just Linux. All the software that makes up a Linux server or desktop (or pda, or any device) is from a huge community that usally calls the OS Linux. It might not be fair, but it's more or less decided by many already. If you choose to call it GNU/Linux most of us won't complain. Calling it Linux is not meant to diminish GNU's contribution, or anyone elses. It's just shorter than guh-noo linux (half the syllables).
Can we move on? - FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You're gonna have to download the kernel sources first. :-)
http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Kernel-HOWTO.html - zoomie, on 10/12/2007, -9/+12"Beautifully said. Too bad it's also rarely said, and more people should refer it to GNU/Linux."
While the GNU and FSF movements should be hailed for all their great contributions, I for one will never refer to Linux as GNU/Linux. I think that level zealotry is annoying and tedious. - kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's sort of a rite of passage. If you haven't compiled your own kernel, you're not really exploring your system. It takes some knowledge of your hardware (or just reading lspci -v) and some knowledge of how the system works, but really it's a fairly basic task that can improve performance on lower-end systems (probably higher-end too, but it's certainly less noticeable there). You're definitely not a power user if you haven't done it, and I'd go so far as to say that's one of the first things that "intermediate" users should do, if they haven't already.
- eklitzke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4If you want to be able to do *everything* from the desktop, then maybe Linux isn't for you. Also, Gnome and KDE have nothing to do with Linux per se (in fact, both of them run on other UNIX systems). Just my two cents.
- wware, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Why do I still need to use ndiswrapper for my wireless hardware? Is this because the wireless hardware manufacturers aren't sharing information? Ndiswrapper is brittle and crappy and limited, and the sooner it's replaced the better off we'll be. Ideally by something packaged with the kernel, or what the article calls "out of the box". Out-of-the-box wireless support would rock.
- magila, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"We find something Windows doesn't have here: software RAID"
This is wrong, in fact Windows NT has had software RAID at least since Win2k. It's just they don't call it RAID and it's buried fairly deep in the disk manager so few people know about it and fewer people use it. I believe it only supports RAID0 and RAID1 though, while the Linux md driver supports RAID5 as well. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@joh6nn
The kernel is a very small part of the operating system. Critical, yes, but small.
Why is this argument about adding the GNU part or not? Why shouldn't it be about adding the Linux part or not? Seems to me that we don't call Windows something like "Windows 2000/NT", right? We just call it Windows. NT is just the kernel. So, my question to you is, what reasoning do you have to make a positive assertion that Linux should be included in the name?
Besides that, how many people bow to Linus' every word when he mentions something about KDE or Gnome? These are not his inventions, and he has very little to do with Ubuntu, Gentoo, Knoppix, or whatever other distro you use. - spectre_25gt, on 10/12/2007, -8/+9Mr. Stallman, is that you?
- kodek, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7Is it me, or was the article a little biased towards Linux? I mean, it DOES have lots of features that the WinXP kernel doesn't have, but I noticed bias when I got to the file systems section. The author said Windows only supports NTFS, FAT and SMB, "That's not much, compared to linux." He never mentioned that Linux doesn't have great support for writing on NTFS partitions, and that any solutions out there to write on them require using Windows drivers.
- DoctorShim, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I remember reading through the menu, mentioned in the article, when I was setting up Gentoo. What I thought was: "Damn! All these features I never knew about. Why do I never see stuff like this when I'm using KDE, GNOME, or whatever?"
I admit, I don't even know all the features of KDE or GNOME. But when I use either of them, I always end up going into some sort of console to do some system stuff. I should be able to do *everything* from the desktop. Too many Linux distros to make such utilities for, perhaps? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3As far as Linux goes, I guess both soundings are considered correct, though Linus pronounces Linux with a short i (lih-nix), because he's a Swede. So that might be considered the most correct way.
GNU, on the other hand, is officially pronounced (guh-new), with a hard g sound. - kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"People that don't understand that really need to read up on NT Internals."
Next on my list of things to do ;-) @eeeee[]);;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;> (sarcasm sword) - Bota, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Great article. . . a little brief for my liking. but VERY informative to those not in the 'have gcc will travel' camp
@spectre_25qt:" Mr. stallman is that you?" precious! i was thinking exactly that. or someone who just recently watched him speak.
@berean: id be willing to bet a healthy chunk of us use the 'linn nicks' pronunciation. but as the stallman says 'guh noo' I hit thee with the proverbial whiffleball bat of truth!
@Bota: jesus what is with you commenting on comments more than on the article! grow up! - Spartn119, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hmmm...it's been awhile since I've compiled my own kernel, is it possible that 'xconfig' simply isn't installed? Try 'make menuconfig' or whatever other options there are when it comes to configuring your own kernel (I believe simply using 'make config' is also an option, never used it though). If your a KDE user you can use KConfigure ( http://kconfigure.sourceforge.net/ ). Best of luck!
EDIT: Or you could simply do what FluffyArmada said...its been a long day. - helios, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No, I tried it yesterday and ran into the same old *****. Oh well, back to hardwire and PCLinuxOS...Now where is Warren with that finished Ubuntu/Mepis Morph???
- kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Maybe for a lot of system administration tasks and stuff like that, but I can't stand lynx/links2/links2 -g for http (I do all of my work on a private wiki) and since most everything I do is GUI-based (image manipulation, word processing, spreadsheets, et cetera), CLI is simply less efficient. Not to mention people doing video editing ;)
Plus, I @#$%ing hate typing in 240-character commands to burn a friggin' CD ;)
Don't get me wrong, I have a Linux server and do a lot on it, and I used to run without X entirely... but it was sincerely crippling. GUIs are a good thing. - alethien, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Windows does a lot more then most people (and geeks who think they are smart) know. I think my big gripe when I see people slam Windows is they have no problem hitting up 18 config files, using 39 consol commands, but magically they aren't bright enough to find a checkbox buried a few windows deep in Windows.
Properly managed, no one OS is going to be better then the next. - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I've used ndiswrapper on dapper now for about 3 months? bcm43xx a/b/g card.
- Pioto, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2And also, at this point, the fuse-ntfs driver works perfectly well for read/write for me. Apparently it isn't always 100% successful, but for what I've used it for so far, it has never failed me. fuse-ntfs doesn't need any windows drivers to be installed, afaik, and is more successful at writing than the old captive ntfs system.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What Linux needs is a standardized driver interface that lets you write drivers without compiling into the kernel. That would allow hardware manufacturers to make closed-source Linux drivers without fearing GPL.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There's two significant operating systems in the world today. Unix and VMS. Windows is, of course, the latter. People that don't understand that really need to read up on NT Internals.
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Many Linux users don't want all that stuff in their GUI, so it's not surprising that there aren't utilities sitting there for everything. Some of us use X mostly as a way to get a high-resolution console. I guess it all depends on how comfortable you are in the console, but I find that GUIs just make things difficult in most cases. Clicking and pointing at tiny little things on my screen is just frustrating to me. I don't want to stare at a screen trying to get a tiny arrow inside a tiny box when I could just tell my computer what to do. I think GUIs usually just serve to make easy things complicated.
- zagi1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Linux would not be possible without GNU, if Linus didnt start the project someone else would, he was just the right person at the right time. The reason GNU/HURD isnt catching up is because the GNU system already has a kernel its called Linux.
- zoomie, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"What? It's really pronounced "line-ix?" Are you sure? And, how else would you say GNU, other than "new?" Just curious what the "accepted" way of pronouncing it is (even though I still won't change how I say it)."
I remember hearing a sound bite of Linus pronouncing it as lee-nucks....but that was before he lost his Finnish accent. He sounds almost American, nowadays. - thecwin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah, usually wireless card manufacturers won't release information or linux drivers, and reverse engineering drivers is a mammoth task filled with legal problems, though it is possible.
Usually it requires one person/team to reverse engineer, write specs, then someone else to build a driver based on them specs, because if the same person/team did both, then it could violate copyright due to derivitave works iirc.
Ndiswrapper wraps the Windows wireless card interface and hence it's very brittle, like WINE. If manufacturers released linux drivers then it'd be a lot smoother. Wireless extensions still needs some work, but afaik it supports many features that NDIS doesn't without hardware specific software, such as "Master" ap mode. Naturally things that are hardware specific and only have a manufacturer provided GUI control are extremely difficult to program and script with and use for routers/servers/whatever. - cabal666, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Linux kernel should adopt some principles from (like tons oft software or whole distros like slack, crux, arch and so on) BSD. They have plenty of experience ... Unstable mumbo jumbo in linux kernel is good for technology hype and windows bashing, but less attractive for average joe and his everlasting problems on his profane desktop.
- statmobile, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Okay, now here is where we need to be careful in explaining the different distros. Some kernels have all this stuff compiled as modules, so they don't really contribute to the memory footprint. But if the drivers are compiled into the kernel they would be classified as bloat. It's up to the distro how this is setup unless you compile the kernel on your own. Playing with this option should also help the amount of time it takes the machine to boot, although I'm not sure how significant of a difference you can achieve. Probing all your hardware each time it starts up has got to take a little time.
This article is extremely useful because now that Ubuntu has created such a craze, and recruited so many new GNU/Linux (Yes, I'll say that for now) users, it is time that they realize that there is much more to a distribution than ease of installation. - Bota, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2@Bota: and commenting on your own comments??? you sir are a freak!
- funkpucker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Ack. I wanted to read the article but the two F#$%ing bright yellow ads hurt my eyes. What's up Digg? No Pic ads! and I don't want to run any more flippin firefox extensions.. the thing crawls with the 15 loaded already.
- rcoast, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2When I try to do make xconfig as the article instructs I get an error:
root@jupiter:/home/rc#make xconfig
make: *** No rule to make target 'xconfig'. Stop.
Any ideas how to fix this? - sharkscott, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1It is the most informative, concise and understandable Linux Kernel article I have ever read.
-
Show 51 - 66 of 66 discussions
Digg is coming to a city (and computer) near you! Check out all the details on our 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is