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72 Comments
- inactive, on 01/06/2008, -2/+31Xiph.org Ogg Theora sounds vaguely Lovecraftian
- dystopianray, on 01/06/2008, -0/+18Yes, that's right. What I meant to say was non-patent encumbered open standards.
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -2/+19Xiph's intentions were good, but they missed the boat. Video seems to be (thankfully) standardizing on MPEG-4, mostly due to mass adoption by device makers. The fact that one can encode an "iPod video" (MPEG-4 AVC (H.264), MPEG-4 AAC, ISO MPEG-4 file format) and be pretty sure that it will play anywhere is already a massive improvement over where we were five years ago, where videos would be distributed in one of any combination of format mashups (DivX/MP3/AVI was a popular one), Windows Media, RealMedia, Ogg hacks (Xvid/MP3/OGM was popular), and not play anywhere without the help of a codec pack. In fact, five years ago, people were still using MPEG-1 for maximum compatibility. MPEG-4 has filled the void of a good quality and ubiquitous new standard.
Unfortunately, there's also a lot of confusion about MPEG-4. A lot of people seem to think that it's not an open standard, confusing the definition of open standards. Many people are under the impression that the ISO file format is somehow limited, resulting in strange chimeras like H.264/AAC/MKV files used by the scene because they are unaware of MPEG-4's subtitle standard. And BIFS hasn't even been explored yet outside of a few people at the GPAC project. There's a lot of potential there.
As for video editing on *nix, the future is looking better. GStreamer's nonlinear editing capabilities are improving in the GNonLin package. Cinelerra is working on a total revamp for their next version. And, on the horizon, AviSynth is coming to Linux, which could mean big things. - dystopianray, on 01/06/2008, -5/+19As much as I like open standards, Theora is simply a horrible and obsolete video codec compared to h.264 and other modern codecs. If they want people to adopt Theora they'll have to greatly improve it's video quality.
- dystopianray, on 01/06/2008, -0/+13From what I understand much of the scene is already using x264 for HD-DVD and blu ray releases.
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -3/+14H.264 is an open standard.
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -1/+12H.264 is an open codec specification created by two industry standards groups: VCEG and MPEG. Apple has (wisely) adopted this format, but they did not create it. Apple H.264 is just an H.264 encoder, like x264. Don't get confused here.
- Ub3rg33k, on 01/06/2008, -0/+10Its absolutely critical, in my opinion, for Linux to nail multimedia NOW to move on in furthering its acceptance on the desktop. Forget fixing Theora for now. Make programs like Kino and Cinerella work flawlessly, smooth out Avidemux and dvd::rip, and pile more features onto Myth. Media is the next big wave for computing. Apple saw it, Microsoft is trying to grab it, Linux needs to own it.
- SanjayM, on 01/06/2008, -2/+11Thing is, XviD isn't where it's at. It was good, for its time, and it'll be around a good while yet, because it's entrenched in the scene standards. But there are vastly better codecs available FREELY now. x264 championed by the same people who make the much beloved VLC Media player is vastly superior in quality in at lower bitrates. I suspect that if/when scene rules are revised x264 will become a big part, and then we will see a huge shift. Personally, i look forward to it.
- trenchfever, on 01/06/2008, -0/+9Obviously, you didn't read the article.
- oldparr, on 01/06/2008, -8/+16Please, Google "X264".
- chugger1992, on 01/06/2008, -1/+9mkv?
- Ub3rg33k, on 01/06/2008, -0/+7That hasn't held back Google. iPod is a stupid name for a media player, but it hasn't hurt its sales any.
- XVampireX, on 01/06/2008, -3/+10Have you tried vorbis?!!!!
This question must be answered before I can help you further... If you think MP3 is better than vorbis, than you're funny, and just like you say that Windows is better than Linux.... It's really insanely funny! The facts don't come from funding, the facts come from people who learn to think for themselves and decide what's better, MP3 or Vorbis! - byrdgang, on 01/06/2008, -0/+6As opposed to names such as H264 (or Xvid - which most people aren't even familiar with), which an average person will easily remember, right? Yeah, of course. Ogg Theora is perfect.
- SanjayM, on 01/06/2008, -1/+7Yup, x264 scales far more effectively to the higher resolutions, you'll also find alot of 720p/1080p TV content is in x264 also. Its a better codec almost universally
- popezaphod, on 01/06/2008, -9/+15How about coming up with a better name?
- CloseTheCode, on 01/06/2008, -6/+11This is welcome, but not entirelly necessary. XviD is where it's at. I know, I know, there is an argument that it could infringe patents, but lets be honest with ourselves, mono is just as, if not more liable, and it hasn't held that project back at all.
- UKsHaDoW, on 01/06/2008, -0/+5If no one heard the word iPod before, then you would also sound like a idiot.
- columb, on 01/06/2008, -1/+5http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X264
- trenchfever, on 01/06/2008, -3/+7Have you tried vorbis?
- Smoozle, on 01/06/2008, -1/+5So basically you want MPEG.
- antitab, on 01/07/2008, -0/+4I'm not sure why you're getting buried, you're correct. Vorbis suffers the same problems that Theora does: its adoption is limited by lack of major industry support, and its quality is limited by patent avoidance. It's fine against baseline AAC, but as soon as SBR and PNS get thrown in there's no comparison. It's like how Theora might be competitive against MPEG-4 Simple Profile, but not H.264.
Hell, even Trent Reznor advises the use of AAC. What more do you need? - mooninite, on 01/06/2008, -1/+5In the USA (where most diggers are) H.264 is PATENTED. You cannot LEGALLY encode with x264.
You *CAN* legally encode with Theora though. Its patents have been removed. - Ub3rg33k, on 01/06/2008, -0/+3In all seriousness, when was the last time you really used the menu in a DVD? I'm guessing 95% of the time people blow right through it and go on to the movie. How many times have you watched the extras on the DVD? I'm guessing once or never. Probably never. Features like subtittles and alternate language tracks can be handled within the player's menu and do not need to be built into a menu on the media itself. Its time to move away from the old model DVD's embraced (cramming everything onto one disc) and concentrate on higher quality encoding at lower bitrates. Use all that extra footage and behind the scenes stuff as free promotional material to entice people into buying the movie itself.
- Tippis, on 01/06/2008, -0/+3It's not so much a matter of "average persons", but of managers... and manager tend to *like* technical names, because they make them look like they're on the forefront of things.
Names that the poor managers need to figure out how pronounce will not be as popular (what if you pronounce it wrong at the meeting? Oh the shame!! :P) - DanaG, on 01/06/2008, -0/+3Off-topic, but what I'd like to see is a container format (like OGG or AVI) that can handle menus and multiple videos, like a DVD can. So you could compress a DVD down to one file and retain all the menus, videos and interactivity.
I heard the DivX people were working on something like that, but I haven't heard what the status was lately (and knowing them, it's probably closed and proprietary). - InorganicMatter, on 01/06/2008, -1/+3"the best hope for increased Theora spread is not yelling at people to get them to use their video delivery system"
That right there is why I don't use OGG. That, plus the fact that AAC and H.264 are all-around better codecs. - Breepee, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2Solution: move out of USA?
- Ub3rg33k, on 01/06/2008, -2/+4Not coming to Linux ... has come to Linux. You can download AviSynth for Linux RIGHT NOW here : http://avisynth3.unite-video.com/download.html
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2MPEG-4 Part 11: BInary Format for Scenes. Very underrated, unfortunately. Check out what can be done:
http://gpac.sourceforge.net/home_screens.php - antitab, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2No, it's not in its current state compilable. A lot of changes are being made: Bidoche is rewriting the parser to interpret Ruby rather than the old AviSynth-style scripting language, among many other things. It's moving along, but what exists on the website is very outdated. Follow development in irc://irc.freenode.net/#avisynth if you want to keep up to date.
- Breepee, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2Better than the original even.
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2Interactivity was slated for Matroska even back when it was first conceived as a split of MCF. It still hasn't happened.
- antitab, on 01/07/2008, -1/+3You're getting things a bit mixed up, here. There are two kinds of licenses that can be purchased: encoder distribution licenses, and content distribution licenses. In this case, unless you're broadcasting your x264-encoded content to the rest of the world, you fall under neither. It's perfectly fine for you to use x264 to encode videos for your iPod, etc. This use falls under the first type of license, and is the responsibility of the codec distributor. In other words, the x264 team is responsible for that infringement.
Of course, that's where things get muddy thanks to the GPL licensing. It's not clear whether the x264 team could, if they wished, legally purchase these licenses IF any of the text of the licenses explicitly forbids redistribution of the encoder by the recipient (which would be a violation of the GPL). In that case, you're stuck with either violating the GPL, or violating the patents. Both of which are illegal.
There's room for the educational loophole that Xvid got by on, but that's even more ambiguous and murky. - Breepee, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2Point is that MP3 with a reasonable bitrate (>128, VBR of course) quality is good enough. While Vorbis may be the better codec (not to mention it being opensource), virtually anything works at least with MP3 and MP3 is bad enough to make the effort to get Vorbis/whatever software.
If you really (think you) have a problem with MP3 at decent quality levels, you probably will have them with any lossy codec. - reginaldino, on 01/07/2008, -0/+2yeah it adds that "warm sound" and crackle :P
- byrdgang, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2Chugger1992, OGG isn't a product you're selling to consumers, and therefore, it doesn't have to be a marketable name.
- antitab, on 01/06/2008, -1/+3Skimming the Theora specification, I'm coming out with the impression that it's basically Simple Profile MPEG-4 + loop filtering and multiple quantization tables. Since the loop filter provides a lot of the perceived benefit of H.264, they may be able to do something with this. The benefit of adaptively compressing blocks using different quant matrixes hasn't ever really been explored (to my knowledge), so I'm not sure how much is stood to gain from that. A smart encoder may be able to reap some nice gains if it applies a rate-distortion curve to multiple-matrix quantization.
However, the gains in compression from bidirectionally-interpolated frames, reference frames, adaptive block sizes, and arithmetic coding provided by H.264 will most likely not be overcome with multiple-matrix quantization alone. The patent-avoiding nature of the codec is the limit here. It may be able to supplant MPEG-4 Simple and possibly Advanced Simple Profile (Divx, Xvid) from a quality perspective, but, again, internet video is already standardizing on H.264, and likely won't slow down for technically inferior format, even if it is legally easier.
Which brings up another point. Theora is not patent-free in the way that Vorbis is (assumed to be). Rather, On2 donated their VP3 patent portfolio to Xiph and effectively made them free in the beer and speech senses. This is, of course, assuming VP3 doesn't infringe any existing patents (since, like I said, it's essentially MPEG-4 Simple Profile), which was already mentioned in the article, and leads to a strangely paradoxical conclusion:
It's probably safer from a business perspective to license patents from an organization like MPEGLA than it is to take On2's word for it.
Then again, who really knows? That's one of the problems with the patent system. The sheer magnitude and ambiguity of the patents granted lead to excess confusion, infringement, and rogue organizations seeking some pieces of pie that either aren't theirs, or should never have been theirs.
Sorry for blowing all over the discussion board here, but this stuff doesn't come up much on Digg :) - reginaldino, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2i wish xiph would pull their head out of the sand and actually release a decent codec. i admire their philosophy but as it stands x264 is the way at the moment for encoding quality
- Tippis, on 01/06/2008, -0/+2...and what does Vorbis have to do with this?
- mooninite, on 01/07/2008, -0/+1@antitab
Hello moron.
You cannot make software that violates software patents, and issue it under the GPL to make it OK. It is a VIOLATION of the GPL to do so.
I'm not talking about "licenses" I'm talking about patents. Patents > Licenses. - Katarn, on 01/07/2008, -0/+1Can you put SSA subtitles in an MPEG-4 container? If any scene uses matroska more, it would be the anime one because matroska is just really good at supporting multiple audio and subtitle sources along with dynamic colors, fonts and a lot more.
- cmpalmer, on 01/07/2008, -0/+1XviD is a much better codec (as are several others), but I think the real challenge is to develop better "real time" encoders for streaming video. This is one case where the Ogg Theora is a good choice, but the tools that are able to use it are are horrible and the lack of DirectShow integration means that you are stuck with command line Linux or VLC. I like VLC, but the fact that it is GPLed and not LGPLed makes it very hard to integrate (or emulate) it's support for Ogg Theora.
- antitab, on 01/07/2008, -0/+1What interactivity format has been selected for Matroska? Either I'm way behind on MKV development, or you're confused.
- antitab, on 01/07/2008, -0/+1There's nothing stopping you from putting SSA subtitles into MP4. Nero does it with Vobsub subtitles. All you need is a tool to mux it in and a parser that will recognize it. This is the same as MKV.
However, MPEG-4 already defines a subtitle format as part of the standard (MPEG-4 Timed Text). This is already supported by QuickTime and GPAC. GPAC's mp4box can use SRT, SUB, and TTXT to create a stream compliant with this. And, yes, the standard supports all the bells and whistles of existing subtitle formats. For more info:
http://gpac.sourceforge.net/doc_ttxt.php
People have these false impressions that the MPEG-4 file format is somehow limited in contrast with Matroska: it's not. It supports all the same features and several more. - XVampireX, on 01/06/2008, -1/+2By the way, if we're talking generally about codecs and how it's used. There's one team that encodes their rips with xvid and it turns out really great, really watchable, when something in HD is not available - I'll just get those xvid rips.
If OGG Theora could do the same, even for anime (anyone heard of that EditingArchive which features anime ripped in Theora... they do it for evangelical reasons but that's a good way to promote a format, unless it looks as bad as it does on EditingArchive, that's why I generally avoid Theora right now, because I know that it's not so good, yet... but it has potential!) - Tippis, on 01/06/2008, -0/+1Why would he answer you when you ask him about something completely unrelated?
- XVampireX, on 01/06/2008, -5/+6X264 is just like xvid, it's based on a patent encumbered technology (H264 by Apple) the only difference is that the source code is open, although it's still free software...
- Tenoq, on 01/08/2008, -0/+1How hard is it to pronounce Theora? It's a phonetic name, FFS.
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