Discover the best of the web!
Learn more about Digg by taking the tour.
Free software is a weak mode of production
freesoftwaremagazine.com — "The success of GNU/Linux and other free software projects is annoying...We really need to break free of those hippies at the [FSF] and let the grown-ups manage things from here on out...Not to mention that the peer-based production model doesn't really work that great anyway...Or at least, that's what I inferred from this post at IPcentral."
chieffy- 386 diggs
- digg it
- AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -8/+50"We really need to break free of those hippies at the [FSF] and let the grown-ups manage things"
My, oh my, oh my! Poor guy, it sounds like he was captured and is being detained by hippies, whose success annoys him?
Imagine how infuriated he will be in a couple of years as he sees more and more evidence of developing countries lifting themselves up and strengthening educational systems; and missionaries reaching back home for support of those who need food and medicine; and how the United Nations, a huge advocate of FOSS, continues to share a message of peace and tolerance.
You mean *that kind of hippie?* Bring it on, baby! Put on your favorite tie-died t-shirt and worn out 501s and spread free software and liberate knowledge, too! Jump aboard the peace train. If you aren't ready now, no worries, we will come back for you stragglers!- subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12From the blog post: "Or at least, that's what I inferred from this post at IPcentral. "
The IPcentral poster only mentioned Free Culture advocates in terms of the whole DIY movement. The "hippies vs grownups" stuff was just Carpenter's inferred spin on a very dry and detailed post from someone who considers the corporate model superior to the Open Source model.
I'm using open source product right now so you know which side I am on. But try to convince, for instance, the MacBoyz that corporate efforts can't produce superior results. - i440, on 10/12/2007, -41/+3I think making $15,000 per year for engineering free software is a wonderful idea, don't you?
- atdigg, on 10/12/2007, -11/+2then don't do it.
- jacks0n, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13"mode of production"
Interesting .. a marxist critique of free software.
Eh, using that analogy .. Free software enables social mobility amongst the proletariat against the tyranny and constraints of proprietary software. Then again, the ability to learn programming is not correlated with class or status quo, therefore the really is no viable constraint. In essence, it simply relieves effort for denizens.
to the author: if you're going to publicly bash FLOSS with some theory, at least make it substantial and rationalise it properly. Next time use post-modernism, since we're not in the 18th century. - arkmtech, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19@ i440:
$15,000 per year?! I dearly hope you're talking side-income - that's less than most people make working for Wal-Mart. - KibibyteBrain, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25I know people who make $190,000 per year engineering Free GNU firmware. I know people who make only $45k being closed source code monkeys.
- timmarhy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+29ignore i440 he is a dickbrain who trolls anything FOSS related.
- coredump0x01, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17@i440
http://digg.com/userblock/337283 - bariswheel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11There are many companies out there that pay very good money for people to work on free software. IBM is one of them.
- jamessavik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7A lot of open source software starts out as programming projects from under graduate and graduate students. You know- like Linus Torvald.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Torvalds - mvent2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12@i440
LMAO. Google uses and develops FOSS. Look where they are now. - williamdyer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1i440 is looking for an open source COBOL project. That pays well.
- Brobdingnagian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I almost forgot, I blocked i440 a long time ago.
Oh, I like free software. I like OSS even more. Sure, I am not a real programmer, but I applaud those who work on OSS.
- subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12From the blog post: "Or at least, that's what I inferred from this post at IPcentral. "
- FewClues, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1"The success of GNU/Linux and other free software projects is annoying.."
Clearly this is meant to incite. It "sounds" like a Windozer but I'm thinking its a kid trying to stir something up. It will generate props for Linux and I guess that's good. But this is a terrible way to go about it - kid. - MovingToFreedom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4That's right -- shameless, unabashed incitement and enticement to hook a few readers in. :-)
If you read the article, I think you'll see that is just a brief teaser that leads in to a less incitetistic discussion that is meant to be a serious promotion of free software. Of course, you're still welcome to condemn the approach in any case.- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Incitetistic? Come on, admit it. You're just making up words now!
- darthmdh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13I don't know why, it's a perfectly cromulent word!
- chapium, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I saw SugarCRM recently. I'm both impressed and surprised by that opensource project.
- sembetu, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2yawn
- Platypus3333, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6I don't mean to be a troll, but this is something I have genuinely wondered for a while.
If all software becomes free and open source, as I assume is the goal, how do programmers make money?- Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11There's a difference between "free" and "open source." Someone can pay a programmer to develop a piece of software and then decide that in order to allow society to use it and improve on it to publish the source code.
And, a programmer can always charge to support their code, and to improve it...
Novell is selling open source software, it can be done. - nickiank, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Your distinction's inaccurate, Dhalgren. You can still charge for "free" software in a number of ways: printed manual + nice fancy profesionally pressed discs, support, or whatever; the source code is still available for modification. The real distinction between "free" and "open source" software comes down to a whole bunch of ideology-laden stuff that some of us may find interesting, but mean dink to most...one reduction would be to say that "free" is the term used by purist zealots and "open source" is the term engineered by panicky "we want job assurance!" types to make "free" software sound less like something from which one can't make money/magic hippie wampum and more like a slick corporate-friendly buzzword. Everyone else uses the terms interchangably.
- mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I dunno, ask the people who work on free software at IBM. Or Red Hat. Or Novell. Or....
- dumbkiwi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3First, most programmers are inhouse developers. Very few programmers work on "shrink-wrapped" off the shelf software. So, Free software won't have any effect on them, other than giving them a huge resource of source code to build applications from. As long as they don't distribute the software outside their company, they can keep their modifications secret and still comply with the GPL.
Secondly, there is nothing in the GPL that prevents you from distributing the software for a fee. Provided you comply with the other bits of the GPL, anyone can charge anyone else as much as they like for the software - just look at linspire and click 'n run. - AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Open source does not necessarily mean "free" as in no charge. It speaks to the freedom to review and reuse and distribute the code. It is an obvious plus to share your code free of charge, as well. That certainly removes another barrier to entry. There are many other ways to earn money working with software including distribution, installation, training, customization or extensions. But you are right, the market dynamics change and it is a challenging transition.
- Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11There's a difference between "free" and "open source." Someone can pay a programmer to develop a piece of software and then decide that in order to allow society to use it and improve on it to publish the source code.
- zerocomm, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2this post was flamebait.
- diggidyjo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Wow, I thought we lived in a free world where hippies and xippies (what do you call non hippies?) could coexist.
If hippies bake less delicious cakes than xippies' and sell them for less, well, I will give a deep consideration on buying cakes from hippies.
If hippies bake as delicious cakes as xippies' and sell them for less, I'll run myself to the nearest hippies to buy cakes.
If hippies bake more delicious cakes than xippies' and sell them for less, I WILL BREAK MYSELF FREE of all the xippies presently forcing me to buy cakes from them.- Dhalgren, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15I think you've been eating too many of those "hippie cakes"
- Jammerdelray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Open Source will be around forever. Get use to it!
- duality, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You're right. The writer from IPCentral would say that Pandora's box is open, and we need to close it. I'd say that the box's lid has been taken off its hinges and thrown in the fireplace, and that people like him are the only people who have something to fear from the contents of the box.
And as long as we're willing to learn more about the strengths of what we've found in the box, we can only expect things to get better.
- duality, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You're right. The writer from IPCentral would say that Pandora's box is open, and we need to close it. I'd say that the box's lid has been taken off its hinges and thrown in the fireplace, and that people like him are the only people who have something to fear from the contents of the box.
- scronline, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I'll agree with some points. There is the "stigma" of the FSF. No offense intended against Stallman, but he leaves a bad impression in the mouth of many, including myself. Complaining and making such a big deal out of things like "It should be called GNU/Linux..." really kind of, well, it just doesn't sit well.
One thing that Linux needs more than ANYTHING though, is to get rid of the elitist attitude. It can be seen all over the place when someone is trying to be helpful and inform the community surrounding that particular distro of what could be done to improve it. You'll see someone say "don't use that then, it's crap, use this instead." Gentoo is probably one of the worst ones for the elitist attitude...I'll even bet if a Gentoo user sees this, they'll mod me down or cuss at his screen for a few minutes before wondering off, if they don't comment. That's not to say it doesn't happen with all distros, it's just more pronounced with Gentoo.
But in all honesty, it's the community that's Linux's biggest strength and it's biggest weakness. Linux Zealots need to realize that Linux can't accomplish everything everyone needs just the same as the Pro-Windows people need to realize there are MANY things that Linux can do better. Mac people...sorry, you're just a glorified *NIX, I don't think of you much different from Linux users and in truth, it's not all that different.- neko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yes, zealotry is bad, but there are zealots on all sides. You get people getting all fired up about Active Directory and claiming it's physically impossible to operate a business without Exchange Server 200x.
You'll never get the zealots to quiet down. But if the majority of non-zealots can remember to contribute with their own calm, reasonable, helpful voice, then maybe people will stop categorising everyone as {Linux,Apple,Microsoft} Zealots and just realise they're Zealots. The particular subcategory of zeal isn't relevant, their opinions don't really matter. - hosiah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11See, and I've been active in FOSS for ten years. I've never once seen this "elitism". I've always bent over backwards to help people use it. I consider Ubuntu to 'junior' for my own use, but if people ask me about the best distro for a newbie, I point them to Ubuntu or Mandriva because it's a solution that seems to work for a lot of people. If people want a show-stopper to sample the best Linux has to offer in one place, I point them at Knoppix or Elive. For multimedia users, I recommend Dyne:bolic or Grafpup. For those with a "geek" motivation like learning programming, I'll show them the Slackware and grml that I use.
I've been hanging out in linuxquestions.org since I, myself, first installed Linux and began using it exclusively. When I was a newbie, I got exactly the same treatment of friendly, helpful advice. I've never heard "RTFM" in my life, neither directed at myself nor anybody else. Of course, after answering the question of the moment, I DO point people at further documentation, because that IS what it's there for, and not enough people know about it.
I think it's those who are scared of technology in the first place and are intimidated by anybody who is good with it; they project this "elitism" onto us where none exists. This is even more noticable when we're attacked and ridiculed for using command lines and such, or when people hand us this agenda and threaten us that "Linux will never make it on the desktop" if we don't make it exactly like Windows. Man, I just run what pleases me, I mind my own business, I help out people who ask me for help, I advocate FOSS as a solution because I want to see it stick around, but I've never twisted anybody's arm to get them to adopt it.
Only recently have I come to see this "elitist" label slapped on me and my peer group. I consider it a hate word, like calling a black person a "nigger". And that's just all we needed to help bridge the technology gap between the 'knows' and the 'know-nots' is another nasty name to call each other, isn't it? Thank you, that really helps a lot! Keep on spreading that FUD, patriot! You'll win the war against everybody who doesn't think just like you do if you just keep on blasting. - kdehead, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2"See, and I've been active in FOSS for ten years. I've never once seen this "elitism". I've always bent over backwards to help people use it."
Same deal here. The only "elitism" I've ever seen are from Windows junkies who thought that my using a command line was primitive. *sigh* (i wont go into the arguments here , cos its been done so many times before) - hosiah, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"The only 'elitism' I've ever seen are from Windows junkies who thought that my using a command line was primitive"
Damn, now that IS a point! Or the abuse you take from the Adobe crowd when you say you use the Gimp to make your graphics in - as if running a pirated copy of a commercial program by a predatory company running on a monopolistic operating system was something to be RE-E-E-EALLY proud about!
Thank you, it all makes sense, now. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I agree with hosiah here. There isn't that much elitism in Linux, what is considered elitism is usually:
1. The protection of Linux from those who'd make it GUI only
2. The refusal to spoon feed people
3. The refusal to futher dilute most Linux users hard pressed time in order to write a GUI that a new user sees as totally the killer app to making Linux king.
4. People who say they aren't interested in making it on the desktop
The reality is
1. Is simple self preservation, a lot of people have invested time in Linux and for most users it is a superior way of doing things. It would be suicidal to change to suit others.
2. Linux users aren't a help service, most are willing to help but there are things that are expected of the person trying to learn. The focus is on helping yourself in formal, paid education so is to be expected when resources are thin like they are in OSS.
3. Again simple time constraint, there are places to go to ask for such features and users should direct their attention towards there. Ubuntu would love to have your feedback on UI design.
4. What is meant here is people would rather see Linux remain Linux and be useful to them and have only 0.001% market share than see Linux become Windows and useless and get 99% of market share.
None of this is elitist. Reality is its a dog eat dog world and each of us has a limited amount of time that can be directed at such issues especially when they have little direct benefit for ourselves.
- neko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Yes, zealotry is bad, but there are zealots on all sides. You get people getting all fired up about Active Directory and claiming it's physically impossible to operate a business without Exchange Server 200x.
- Swift2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Well, I guess you guys don't know that the "Progress and Freedom Foundation" was founded by Newt Gingrich. Nothing is real, see, unless you get a sh--load of money from it. And that means, you have to stop people from figuring out they don't need SuperNeo v. 8.08, because it's a feature-laden piece of junk. The function of software is primarily to charge you money. I've got to say, long term, this is just bunk. I think you can charge for some software, the newer stuff that's really brilliant. But the very idea that we'll all be using Word 2036 to deal with our writing is just ludicrous. It ain't gonna happen. And by the time the basic programming is well-known to every high school kid learning how to program, or all available in some object library, the jig, as they say, will be up. Free and open software, free and open standards! Take that, little roly-poly Newt!
- Gerz1219, on 10/12/2007, -7/+5When I read articles like this, I'm always reminded of the symbiosis between open-source and commercial software. Open-source software only gets written because well-paid programmers decide to donate their spare time to practice their hobby and benefit the community. If these programmers weren't working for the likes of Microsoft and the rest of the evil empire, then what would they be doing for a living? More importantly, how many people would really take the time to learn how to program if one couldn't make a living at it? If everyone expected all software to be free, then majoring in CS would be about as practical as a philosophy degree. A few would still do it, of course, but a lot more potential programmers would major in engineering or business or law -- something that would pay the rent. It follows, then, that open-source software can only thrive in the presence of a large for-profit software apparatus to provide open-source programmers with a steady income stream while they write free code.
- equitium, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Those people doing it for money shouldn't be "great" programmers then.. They should do something else. Most of the great programmers do it because it is their passion.. and that's is when great software happens.
Open source companies still make a killing.. and would survive. Most open-source developers I know (I do know a few) do it for the community and open source ideals.. Not for money. Its like a religion. Open source is here to stay.. and its never slowed down. The product is usually solid.. You can tell when someone programs as a hobby or passion instead of money. Articles like this skew the feelings of people who know little about open-source.. It seems some don't understand based on the comments on the page. - mangi86, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think that you are forgetting about many of the other uses for a CS degree besides programming commercial software. There is quite a lot of money to be made working as a consultant.
- equitium, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Those people doing it for money shouldn't be "great" programmers then.. They should do something else. Most of the great programmers do it because it is their passion.. and that's is when great software happens.
- jamessavik, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I was so ready to flame sombody until I read the article.
- transeunte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Tell me about it. I had my fist clenched, but there was nobody to punch. :(
- strangerzero, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Where would computing be without "hippies"?
http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/allen0221.jpg
http://www.tugurium.com/gti/images/W/WozniakS_Jobs_1976.jpg - pezholio, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Edit: Read the damn article!
- peteinakl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think, after reading through all the linked articles and a little Googling, the bigger question is this: How did this poor guy get to the point where he blamed everything ReiserFS was experiencing on his wife/divorce, and how did it push him over the edge to then kill his ex-wife after Novells confidential discussions with him about their pull-out?
- mymate, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1hmmm cant really believe someone could have an oppinion like this, sounds to me one - your either bill gates or two you fanci bill gates. free software and more importantly open software will be the future. how do i know? look at the industry we live in, computer driven. schools now teach programming languages as compulsory units. the idea of a few teenages getting together and customing an opperating system and working on it. programming languages will soon be as easy to pick up as a native language since they'll be learning from such a young age. also have you considered other free software other than linux? firefox, azureus, virtual dub, avisynth, xvid, dude comeon you must be gay
- YiXiang, on 10/12/2007, -4/+0If programmers did not need to eat cakes to live, there wouldn't be great software like IBM, Xilisoft. If there weren't free software like IBM, there would not be great IBM.
- geezusfreeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You are on some great drugs.
- goffy59, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2If it wasnt for hippies we would have computer programs. Before no one gave a ***** about software, now its a standard. As far as im concerned hippies are the reason all this started. Thats why bill gates is rich, because he took the idea, and charged for it. So the hippies didint get ***** and now microsoft is the most powerful software company.
- petepete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1http://weblog.ipcentral.info/ is hosted on freebsd/apache
nuff said- Cablito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Enough said? That doesn't say a thing on its own.
- chieffy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is great. The article description I used (which is a trimmed down version of the first two paragraphs of the article itself) has really shown who doesn't read the article (and sometimes not even the full description) before commenting and who does.
- AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0LOL! Yes, you got me! After opening my email, I immediately clicked the provocative title and responded. Good job! Plus, I got to return, read a well-written article and meet a new friend. Not a bad way to start Monday morning. Thanks for baiting me in! Appreciate it! :)
- mybhopal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I wonder why many individuals don't enjoy openness of the sky and freshness in the free flowing water and air.Inside environ of a cage placed even under a very much open looking sky fails to give the resident a feel of elements present in the vicinity. But parrots once freed from the captivity never ever returned to their cages.in my village. Possibly they were able to realize what was amiss in the captivity..But humans were constituted differently in the evolutionary process.Many do not do what parrots could do for so long in the history so slavery continued as long as effective opposition was not created. But once eradicated, today no society even dreams of reviving slavery in its system.OSS will also do the same to the developing societies of humans once every one realizes that OSS spells freedom. To enjoy one has to not discard but taste it thoroughly..
- subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@mybhopal: computer software is not a religion.
- AmyStephen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@mybhopal - that was beautiful, thanks for sharing! Amy :)
- bdmbdm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I love it how people try to bring down OSS. I'm sick of using proprietary ***** software!
- DanielNielsen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2All hail the free software.
- tamar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Agreed. There will always be people who want to monetize on software development, and more power to them. It won't stop freeware/GNU applications, and it certainly won't stop ways of circumventing paid software restrictions.
- lasermike026, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hey, if this guy thinks he has a better idea then he should get to it. Until then he's just pushing hot air.
Move along, nothing to see here. Move along.- chieffy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1RTFA and then feel free to have an opinion about it.
© Digg Inc. 2008 —
Content posted by
