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65 Comments
- axonal, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40Who cares? If it doesn't fit, just cut off what doesn't go in.
- AReallyGoodName, on 10/12/2007, -0/+25"Who cares? If it doesn't fit, just cut off what doesn't go in."
I know it's a joke but, unlike PCI-E, doing that with a PCI-X card will actually work!
It is fully backwards compatible with PCI 2.2 slots. If you want to plug a PCI-X card into a PCI slot just ignore the back part of the card and jam it in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI-X - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+20Intel's card is not open. The programming interface for it might be, but not the hardware. This is open hardware, and looks to be very flexible. I'm already drooling over the reprogrammable FPGA. Great work.
- blandrys, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Most people here don't seem to get the point of this project, judging from
comments. The point is not to be the cheapest or the fastest (obviously)
but rather to make a 100% documented graphics hardware acceleration
platform that anyone can dig into and tweak to their hearts extent.
Not for everyone, but clamping down on the project declaring it is "going
nowhere" is just plain stupid. Certainly this project has its place and I
am much looking forward to how it will progress. - michaelkirk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19I hope that this project really takes off. The more competition in the market, the better for the consumer. This could be wonderful to Linux and other open source users too, especially if the performance can be improved to current (8800, etc) levels.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18Here is some related ongoing work, for whoever is interested Open Source GPU's (I am!).
Interview: Timothy Miller, Open Graphics Project
,----[ Quote ]
| The OGP grew rapidly after I first started it, and it's continued to
| grow gradually since then. Now, we have Traversal Technology and also
| the Open Hardware Foundation that's dedicated to the non-profit,
| community, and democratic aspects of the project. Our mailing list has
| over 500 members, including well-known Linux kernel hackers, 3D graphics
| experts, college professors, representatives of many other open
| source projects, hardware designers, and people who want to become
| hardware designers.
`----
http://linuxgazette.net/130/ruecker.html
XGI Technology Drivers Revisited
,----[ Quote ]
| It has been one year to the day since XGI Technology had last released
| a Volari Linux display driver and about 14 months since we had
| first delivered word of XGI considering open-source 3D display drivers.
| Where do things now stand for XGI Technology? We will tell you all
| of the details today where things are for this Taiwan graphics company.
`----
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=619&num=1
Nouveau: A First Look
,----[ Quote ]
| So when will the Nouveau driver be ready? The Wiki states that the
| project should be mostly usable in autumn 2007. Keith Packard had
| previously expressed hope that the driver would be ready in time
| for the X.Org 7.3 release.
`----
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=614&num=1
...pledge at least $10 USD towards the development of the open source nouveau
driver for the nvidia card series...
,----[ Quote ]
| For the longest time nvidia have failed to provide specifications
| for their hardware or a working free accelerated 3d driver for
| inclusion with X.org. Thus leaving the many users of their
| videocards on popular UN*X systems such as Linux with only the
| option of using a 2d only driver or using nvidia' notorious
| proprietary driver.
|
| With the advent of technological improvements to the underlying
| system to allow desktop effects this leaves a great number of users
| out in the cold. A project does exists to reverse engineer a driver
| for the existing nvidia cards, however this is a hard task which
| will require many man hours to complete. Thus the aim to present
| the Nouveau team with this no strings attached donation of at least
| $10.000 USD to further their nobel effort in developing this driver.
`----
http://www.pledgebank.com/nouveaudriver - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"I'm assuming you're talking about a 2D graphics card since nothing Intel has ever produced could be honestly called a 3D graphics adapter."
Right, because this project (which achieves faster memory throughput than the Geforce2 or Radeon 7000) is sure gonna be a poly-pusher...
For the average non-gamer (maybe the occasional game which uses minimal 3d, like warcraft3), the intel chips work fine, and this card will too - jgarzik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Intel's graphics chip is open -- open in the sense that the specifications are open. That's great, and kudos to Intel, but it is different from OGD1, where the [verilog] source code for the HARDWARE will be available.
For more open hardware, see also http://www.opencores.org/ - tuxedup, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12the finished consumer card is not intended to be for any hardcore gamer. IIt is suppsoed to be designed for the everyday use, somebody who plays quake 3 with low settings and the fancy desktop effects of xgl/compiz/beryl.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Gerz: Buying a proprietary card from ATI/Nvidia with proprietary drivers that shoe-horn themselves into the kernel is the impractical solution on a Linux system. Get your facts straight. This is not meant to be a gaming card for Windows. There are more people who don't give a ***** about PC games than you think. Some people actually use computers for work and a card like this would just work better than a proprietary one, and your drivers could be in the kernel.org kernel, not a separate package that you emerge or apt-get install.
I'm stoked that these are further in development. I bet the # of green thumbs ups I get will show that I'm far from alone here. - linnerd40, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10More information here:
http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=OGPN17&PHPSESSID=6f20d501db8bf28bd30dfbfdbd2f0813 - myfanwy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11@jonnyfatman and all the other negative types
well, if you only look ahead to the near future, but maybe they can see further ahead than your short-term view? maybe they see something that can compete in a few years time?
but i suppose if you never try, you never fail though, so just sit back and keep criticising, while the rest of us try, eh?
and the cards aren't perfectly good, as TFA says. and the open drivers available for them are rubbish - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8This is a great start. Anyways, opencores.org has more info on other open hardware projects :-)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It wouldn't be much good unless you are a hardware and driver hacker. Not saying you aren't, but 99.9% of diggers would find a prototype completely useless at this point.
- jgarzik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7@pak314
RTFA. ASIC is coming... FPGA is just the first step.
For OGD developers and open hardware project, FPGA makes a lot more sense. And if you are doing FPGA, you can prove the design, /then/ to go ASIC. - tuxedup, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8the cards are not intended for that use.
There is an episode of lug radio where they interview the lead guy in the project and he talks about what the first cards are designed for, and they certaintly are not designed for playing hl2 - myfanwy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9not all performance gfx cards are for gaming - there's plenty of market in 3D modelling using OpenGL compatible cards (not that microsoft DX rubbish). whether or not this will compare with say a quadrofx or firegl remains to be seen.
commendable nonetheless, dugg - Stonedonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Looks like a 64-bit PCI card. (Not PCI Express.)
Would fit into one of these, I believe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:64bitpci.jpg - AReallyGoodName, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Actually it is a PCI-X slot (not to be confused with PCI-E which is what most graphics cards use today).
PCI-X is somewhat common on server platforms but it is not used in the mainstream.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCI-X - tuxedup, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@jonnyfatman
Well your stuffed if you run anything other than windows or linux if you have an ati card and want 3d acceleration, and your stuffed if you run anything other than windows, linux or free bsd if you have a nvidia card.
What happens if I am openbsd user, a SkyOS user or even an riscOS user? I am stuffed if I want to use anything requiring accelerated 3d?
The project provides a means for these projects to achieve accelerated graphics via proting the drivers because nvidia and ati never will.
What about the embbedded uses for the card and things prduced by the project? - slickrick2k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Well I'm not a gamer, but I do tinker with 3D. I have the Red book on my shelf and I get it out every now and then. I also like all my pretty 3D Screensavers. Besides, I'm an amateur astronomer and Stelarrium definitely needs 3D acceleration.
Oh yeah, and I use Linux, and I'm sick of ***** support for it from Nvidia and ATI. NVidias drivers crash, period. It may be OK in your gaming world for your computer to crash once a week because of a ***** graphics driver. However in the development world were I plug away my day it is completely unacceptable for the computer to crash just because a 3D screensaver came on. And don't even get me started on ATI's "support" for Linux.
My guess is I'm not alone. For people who work with their computers, and don't play cutting edge games, this would be an attractive option. Especially since even if it was $300 my employer would be buying it, not me :-) - SirNuke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Do gamers have a monopoly on video cards? Seriously, with Compiz/3D desktops any user could use decent 3D performance. This is a 'run compiz on four 20 inch LCDs' card, not a 'i get 2 more fps on HL2 8xAA 4xAF than u lol' card.
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Surprised this got dugg down. The Intel G965 card has open source drivers, it available now, and it uses PCI-Express. It is not off-topic to mention this, because the article title is wrong - it's not the first open card, even if this 'Joseph Black' card had "appeared" on the market, which it has not. By the way, culbeda, the Intel G965 is a 3D card even with Hardware T&L support."
This isn't the first Video Card with Open Source Drivers, it's the first Open Source Video Card with Open Source Drivers. It's 100% Open Source, from the hardware you buy, to the software that drives it, to the software that loads the GPU/FPGA with its firmware. When the design is completed, they will take this very design to a MOSIS company, and print out the silicon chip for it, stick it on a card next to an FPGA and release that as the "next generation" (it'll be faster because it's in silicon, and the FPGA will add more functionality, perhaps pixel/vertex shaders). This is how evolutionary Open Source Hardware will work. - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@tux
"It is suppsoed to be designed for the everyday use, somebody who plays quake 3 with low settings and the fancy desktop effects of xgl/compiz/beryl."
That might be the performance level they're stuck with, but it's not their intended user - if you want a card with the performance of a GeForce 2, you get a GeForce 2. These cards can't compete in terms of price, and so can't compete in the normal market.
This project is all about open-source, and will only sell to people to whom its open-souce nature is important.
Edit - Gerz got there first.
@ben
"Im sure some of the open source champions that use every opportunity to extoll the wonders of FOSS are masturbating furiously"
That is not an image of Stallman I wish to suffer again. - Kommy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Spectacular. I'll certanly want one when they become avalable.
- fuzzynyanko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Their target is Radeon 7000/Geforce2 GTS. It's not a very high target for 3d games.
I agree with the part about open drivers. Just from Digg it sounds like there's people who want to have something like this in their *nix boxes. For a majority of applications, this would be more than enough. You don't exactly need a Geforce 8800 in order to use notepad.exe. - desertcamel, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Surprised this got dugg down. The Intel G965 card has open source drivers, it available now, and it uses PCI-Express. It is not off-topic to mention this, because the article title is wrong - it's not the first open card, even if this 'Joseph Black' card had "appeared" on the market, which it has not. By the way, culbeda, the Intel G965 is a 3D card even with Hardware T&L support.
- AReallyGoodName, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A customisable graphics card will find a huge use in the embedded community. FPGAs are already used to output graphics in many embedded projects (from GPS navigators to ATMs). What they have done here is improved the performance of the FPGA as a graphics card and added support for new features like 2 dual-link DVI ports and 3D processing on the FPGA itself.
Want to use 50 big plasma screens together as 1 giant screen? (like they sometimes do at football stadiums)
Create a custom board with a ton of FPGAs, use this open source logic, and you now have a graphics card capable of outputting to such a monster. - Doomhammer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4These "perfectly good cards" with "perfectly good drivers" don't have decent drivers available for any OS but Windows. With an open spec card, drivers could easily be written for any OS on any architecture.
- desertcamel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Found more links here: http://www.linuxgamingworld.com/2006/12/intels-open-source-gpu-driver
- flibisk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2and it won't work with vista
- sdub1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2What manufacturer and game is the author talking about here?
One of the situations I learned about is a certain bug with certain unnamed GPUs and it considers screw-ups with HDR - not fixable in a GPU - which of course, was not mentioned anywhere, and yet developers that experienced the problem thought they were doing something wrong.
This would not be so weird if it wasn't for the fact that the company not mentioned here wasn't touting HDR as their main feature, and even invited journalists to see briefings demonstrating its previous gen hardware having HDR, er, it didn't, with a certain 6-mil-$ game, but that's a long story. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yes. The creators of the device are allowed to set whatever licences they want on it, which means commercial + GPL makes perfect sense. Most commercial-GPL dual-licensing solutions, however, limit you to a certain version of the code (for example, when you buy a commercial license to some code, you get a dump of that version's code from CVS, and have to work from there: no going to the CVS server later and trying to import bug fixes, as that would make your code tree GPL).
- treehead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Poorly written article with little good information. Actual specs for card:
http://digg.com/hardware/OGD1_This_graphics_card_is_not_a_dream_The_card_is_real - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"3D display drivers for NVIDIA graphics cards"
I would have though there'd be more demand for 3D display drivers for ATi graphics cards - their Linux drivers suck notably more than nVidia's. - tuxedup, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2from what i read a while ago, the first card intended for real sale from the project wont be much use to anyone other than those wishing to develop and learn about hardware, it is designed for educational use etc.
This card will be used to generate money in order to manufacturer the real consumer card, which is still a far way off. - pak314, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3FPGA with cutting edge performance can be very expensive so these can never compete with fully ASIC designs made by ATI and Nvidia and will always trail behind. The reason is in ASICs, the gates and wiring can be custom placed in the chips to suit your performance needs. In contrast, FPGAs and preplaced gates and wiring which and be enabled and disabled in a limited manner so your performance is not as good. There is a third route however of structured ASICs where all but the final layer of wiring is preplaced on the chips. This gives a solution halfway between FPGA and ASIC with not as much upfront costs. This might be a reasonable solution for them once the fix the design.
- TomP, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3What kinda slot is that?!
- opusagogo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2can anybody figure out where on the site you can buy a prototype board? OGD1-256DDAV
- betacmag4u, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I wonder if this card will be able to handle Tanarus ???
- Sumyunguy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7From the Wiki "It's not a gaming card, but Quake III should, we think, be usable. For 1280x1024, a Ge Force 6200 AGP 256MB running a Linux Quake Benchmark demo (from ftp.idsoftware.com) drops down to 1346 frames, 23.7 seconds, 56.9 fps, and for 1280x1024, a Radeon 7000 drops down to 1346 frames, 137.7 seconds, 9.8 fps. With our development card and the OGA1 GPU, our target is a frame rate of between 20 and 30 FPS on Quake III at 1280x1024."
oooooooh! I could play Quake III...again... - desertcamel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Okay - I see your point about FPGAs. Article probably'd better to have been posted under Hardware.
However..... most people leaving comments here are also talking about Linux/UNIX "open" drivers.
@AReallyGoodName: You have a good summary of why open FPGAs are important. Thanks! - Cybie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11> OpenRT is already real time without hardware acceleration. (Which was kind of the point of it)
2> It is QUITE possible to edit uncompressed HD and has been for the past couple of years.
http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2001/11_nov/reviews/cw_hd_boxx.htm
http://www.3dv.com/dvhardware/velocityhd/velocityhd.html
This card is a solution in search of a problem. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1lol. I remember when I first played cs:s with my ati 8500, due to a driver glitch i could see through corners and walls. It wasn't perfect but good enough to be effective.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"I know it's a joke but, unlike PCI-E, doing that with a PCI-X card will actually work!"
But still, don't anyone actually cut your PCI-X cards up and then try and use them in your computer. Do it in someone else's computer! ;-) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It might be Nvidia and Oblivion they are speaking of.
- computergod, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2This will be great for cheating, you can make it see through walls, make enemies glow, etc. I guess you will have to play punkbuster games with certified drivers.
I was able to get Quake 3 to have some see-through action by just playing around with the SMT components on my old 7200. Did not work well, but it did work. - drag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well you completely miss the point of the project (at this point)
Sure you can find a ATI Radeon 7000 for cheap...
But were can you find a FPGA development board with a very sophisticated programmable proccessor and 256megs of RAM and PCI interface?
The answer is:
NOWERE.
This is one of a kind, a new hardware devlce that there is probably a demand for. Demand for students, schools, prototype boards for developing new hardware for commercial uses, hardware hobbyists, etc etc.
For example say your a guy that is trying to sell a high speed graphical workstation for doing HDTV work. Well using this board you would be able to program hardware acceleration for encoding and decoding HD compression realtime for lossless graphical editing. No computer currently on market can do it. And it will be years before a computer will be able to do it at the speed that is nessicary for effortless realtime editing.
Say your a hardware maker and want to create the ability to do high speed crypto with compression to record data to a harddrive and stream it out over a network. But the device has to be low powered and in a small form factor due to it's end use (say in some machinery or in a airplane or something like that).. Then this card would be a easy and (relatively) cheap way to accomplish this.
Say your a embedded graphics designer and would like to use this chip for future handheld devices...
So for anything you could ever want for any sort of hardware acceleration, but currently is to expensive for you to go out and build your own prototype boards.. This is the device for you.
If this works out and there turns out to be some sort of demand for a programmable PCI card with 256megs of RAM and 2 high speed external interfaces for video or whatever anybody could want.. Then they will use this board to develop a ASIC version.
The ASIC version will be non-programmable, but will be much faster and be more appropriate for embedded devices and for use in personal computers. It (this generation) won't ever perform even remotely as well as ATI or Nvidia cards for 3d games, but there are plenty of uses for it non-the-less. It just won't be a mainstream card.
There are lots of video cards out there that are sorta like it. The head developer of this project worked as a developer for a video card that specialized in displaying ultra-high resolution black and white images for things like medical devices.
Another example you could use this card for would be to hardware accelerate raytracing.
Raytracing will produce 3d graphics much more detailed and much more pretty then anything that OpenGL could ever do. Imagine raytracing a entire city with all the buildings, windows, people and cars.. All at the same time. This is currently possible in software, but with hardware acceleration it could be fast enough to be useable.
http://www.openrt.de/gallery.php - hgamboa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Is the licensing model that they propose, both GPL and commercial possible?
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0""This card is a solution in search of a problem.""
Yawn. Point out stuff that I was previously aware of.
http://www.lmahd.com/
The key word is 'compressed'. If you don't understand what I mean, then it's pointless. Also there is a difference between going out and spending 8000 dollars on hardware vs a 600 dollar add-on card for a regular dual core machine and getting superior results. Also that was just one of half a dozen things I mentioned. There are hundreds of possible applications for a device like this.
It's very easy to knock something down if your ignorant. It's much more difficult to look at something objectively and actually know what your dealing with.
It's a cheap PCI card with full documentation, sophisticated programmable proccessor, and a lot of RAM. It's the first of it's kind and should be very interesting to anybody remotely interested in hardware prorgamming. -
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