What is Digg?128 Comments
- jaboutboul, on 10/12/2007, -5/+62I'm urgently trying to find a doctor or scientists or someone who is familiar with fluoroquinolone poisoning and adverse reactions who will be able to help me treat the pathology, not just the symptoms as they arise. The problem with just treating the symptoms is that bad reactions to this type of drug occur from what is thought to be fluoride poisoning. Fluoride, as the geekier amongst us will know, is notorious for binding to bone and is NOTORIOUSLY hard to remove from the body. What happens as a result of that is that it makes its way into the Central Nervous System and triggers all kinds of crazy symptoms, such as panic attacks, tingling in nerves, etc. some of which I am experiencing now. The true problem though is that sometimes the fluoride or whatever it is that lingers in the system will not interact with the body or nervous system for sometimes, months and even years after you have been "floxed" as they call it.
You try going to a doctor a year after a medication and explaining to him how the things happening to you now are due to a medicine taken 6 months or a year ago. You'll be in the psych ward quicker than you can say it.
That's why I need to find an expert on this who can tell me what systems in my body I need to test right away, how to detoxify myself, how to treat what happened to me and not just the symptoms that arise, and also what preventative measures I need to take to prevent anything serious from happening. - doughardison, on 10/12/2007, -2/+31Ugh. Terrible to hear. Get well soon...
- Julolidine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24"I am pretty sure I am suffering from Fluoride poisoning, if anyone knows otherwise, please let me know. Fluoride is a toxin notorious for bonding to bone and being difficult to extract."
He's fortunately probably wrong on his assessment of that. The amount of fluoride in the pills is, well, you get more from your dentist, toothpaste, and from city tap water. There are all sorts of nasty side reactions that can happen with antibiotics (or any other pill), including massive immune responses due to allergies.
I hope you contact another doctor as soon as possible. If you still have those infections, they can do serious harm to you. By completely giving up antibiotics, you risk culturing a 'super' strain of bacteria in your body.
There are far too many variables for someone to give you an assessment over the Internet! Go see another doctor! - bkedelen, on 10/12/2007, -7/+28Stated fear of medication, overgeneralized psychological symptoms, unscientific self-diagnosis. Yes surree we got ourselves some hypochondria. I am sorry that this medication has prompted anxiety for you, but this class of drugs are prescribed and save lives all the time. Problems such as these are statistically very unlikely. Drugs are not perfect, sorry to break it to you. All they do is help millions of people all over the world the vast majority of the time.
- moman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24I know Jack Aboutboul personally (good friend, he helped me get a few jobs). He is a great guy, and I pray that he gets better. Please everybody show your support, even if it just is to send him a "get well" email. I'm sure he (and I) will appreciate it immensely.
- millerbrad, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20Avelox is only about 5% fluoride, which means that each 400mg dose has about 20mg of fluoride. Little-to-none of that 20mg is even metabolized free from the drug molecules, and is simply passed from the body. I'd be more worried about fluoride in drinking water or toothpaste, and I'm not worried at all about that.
To be blunt, it sounds like the guy's a spazz. He felt better when they gave him Ativan in the hospital, i.e. maybe he was having anxiety issues more than anything. I'm curious if the EKGs actually indicated a heartattack?
He does mention having heart palpitations. Hopefully the doctors checked that EKG for QTc prolongation (abnormal heart rhythm, can rarely be fatal). While it's disputed how relavent this side effect is with fluoroquinolones, it's still a possibility.
Hopefully in his Google searches, he didn't give too much credibility to all the lawyers' bullcrap that's posted.
Oh, and FWIW, I'm a pharmacist... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+25Quick, everyone plug in your PS3s!
- netzdamon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19No idea we could use digg for requests like this. Next time my gf is out of town I think I'll use digg to find a cheap hooker.
- bkedelen, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20The doctor gave him a much more serious prescription than he needed because like many hypochondriacs he exaggerated his symptoms and misrepresented the treatment he had already received.
- digitalsin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Good thinking. I can see the next headline then:
"Digg Community Guy Has a Curious Rash with a Bad Smell! Help him find a doctor!" [Digg] - samnetwork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinolone :
Adverse effects
Quinolone antibiotics were once considered relatively safe, but several side effects have become evident with experience. For example, numerous case reports have implicated their use since 1965 in spontaneous tendon ruptures or damage, especially with the concurrent use of a systemic corticosteroid. In the fall of 2004, the Food and Drug Administration upgraded the warnings found within the package inserts for all drugs within this class regarding such serious adverse reactions.
* Peripheral neuropathy (nerve damage): "Rare cases of sensory or sensor motor axonal polyneuropathy affecting small and or large axons resulting in paresthesias, hypoaesthesias, dysesthesias, and weakness have been reported in patients taking quinolones. Therapy should be discontinued if the patient experiences symptoms of neuropathy including pain, burning, tingling, numbness and or weakness or is found to have deficits in light touch, pain, temperature, position sense, vibratory sensation, and or motor strength in order to prevent the development of an irreversible condition."
* Tendon damage: "Ruptures of the shoulder, hand, Achilles tendon or other tendons that require surgical repair or resulted in prolonged disability have been reported in patients receiving quinolones. Post-marketing surveillance reports indicate that this risk may be increased in patients receiving concomitant corticosteroids, especially the elderly. Fluoroquinolone therapy should be discontinued if the patient experiences pain, inflammation, or rupture of a tendon. Patients should rest and refrain from exercise until diagnosis of tendonitis or tendon rupture had been excluded. Tendon rupture can occur during or after therapy with quinolones."
Other problems include:
* Heart problems (prolonged QT Interval / Torsades de pointes)
* Pseudomembranous colitis
* Rhabdomyolysis (breakdown of muscle tissue)
* Stevens-Johnson syndrome
* Lowered seizure threshold
Maybe the Doctors from the "External Links" on Wikipedia can help you.
Or maybe this: http://www.fqresearch.org/ - ALoserIsYou, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19Paging Dr. House
- digitalsin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15"You Americans make me laugh"
We're more than happy to laugh back at you. - fober, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Good luck Jack!
- digitalsin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11My advice for you (you know, since you asked for it) is to stay the hell off the internet for at least a week. Stop analyzing yourself. Do some healthy activities that will get your mind off wondering if you're in the .05% of the population that truly has gotten fluoride poisoning.
Some healthy activities to try:
1. Have sex (preferably with another person or persons)
2. Buy a kitten
3. Go to the gym
4. Go to a bar and get bent
5. Call your mom or grandma and let her list all of her hypochondriac ailments - yours will pale in comparison and make you feel better
Seriously, get away from the computer and forget about what you think you might have. Go get a different antibiotic. - samnetwork, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Oh god. Poor Jack. I really hope you get well soon
- debtman7, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Often fatal? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration here... I've been on these antibiotics several times for resistant sinus infections. I can attest to the fact that they are psychoactive and can cause anxiety, tachycardia, insomnia, etc. However, this does not come anywhere near 'often fatal'. This guy isn't being poisoned, he's experiencing some side effects of a drug. Yeah, they're not so pleasant perhaps, but nothing dangerous there. I certainly don't think swearing off drugs is the answer in any case. Based on the fact that he seems to be getting a bit carried away about this, and claims to have 'basically had a heart attack' (which nothing else he says indicates happened), I'd say he's a bit of the anxious sort to begin with. Personally when I'm on these types of drugs, or prednisone, I make sure to get some xanax and ambien from my doctor as well. Luckily my doctor is good, and the first time I had to take these he let me know that it may cause tachycardia, palpitations, anxiety and insomnia so I knew what was coming.
- sism3477, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Do you people even read the articles before you decide to comment? He clearly stated how you may help him in the article. All he wants is for someone who has had prior exposure to this condition to let him know of possible treatments. Also he did go to a doctor ... that's who did this to him.
- dbsanfte, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7All the symptoms he described are symptoms of a panic attack. Yes, even the burning in the head and legs.
I've had that during my panic attacks also. It feels like a "heart attack", but isn't. Anything can trigger them. I find it interesting he mentions his anxiety. Not to downplay what happened to the fellow (I have suffered from extreme panic attacks and generalized anxiety disorder for three years now), but just from what he describes, no. That wasn't a heart attack.
A heart rate of "double normal", or 120bpm, is tachycardia, but not in the heart-attack range for his age (try 190-200). Tachycardia can be caused by gas of all things (not saying this is what happened to him, just saying it's common). Unless the EKG shows abnormalities in electrical signalling in the heart, tachycardia almost never indicates a cardiac event.
The odds of a heart attack in a person under 30, nonsmoker, normal cholesterol etc, is less than 1%. It is only remotely possible that he had a heart attack from these pills, and really it's more likely he feels the doctors are dismissing the urgency of what he feels, and so he is self-diagnosing. That's bad. I've done it. It just breeds more anxiety.
Jack, this may be tough for you to believe, by panic attacks are extremely common in the 20s age group, that's where they most often manifest for the first time. When you're ill, under the weather, experience a new sensation in your body you haven't felt before. It triggers a gut "OMG SOMETHING IS WRONG" reaction and boom, you're in full panic-mode. If the doctors say you had a panic attack, skip two or three years of futile self-diagnosis (like I spent) from astronomically unlikely ailments like fluoride poisoning, and come to grips with the fact that you had one.
Your anxiety won't go away until you learn it has become self-perpetuating, and learn to cope with it. The doctors aren't trying to mislead you, panic attacks feel like death is creeping up on your shoulder and really do manifest themselves in such ways as what you experienced. From what I read and what you say the doctors told you, welcome to the panic attack club, man.
--Panic attack sufferer - millerbrad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Prescription drugs are only available through a prescription, quite often, because they HAVE these side effects. Prednisone can have all the side effects you mentioned. It can also cause osteoporosis and give you a buffalo hump (if you take it for a long enough time). However, it also helps people breathe, reduces dangerous inflammatory reactions, helps prevent rejection of donated organs.
Drugs are good and bad. It's a doctor's job to weigh the risks & benefits for giving the drug to a patient.
@tonton2012 -- The drug companies don't care about prednisone anymore. They make MAYBE a penny per pill, because it's generically available, and it has been for-freakin'-ever. - Fhionnlaoch, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11My dad took that too and nearly went blind, except for the few surgies that preserved his sight. It also caused his finger nails to rot away for no reason. The good news was, however, that it sent his kidney disease into remission so he didn't need to go on dialysis.
I suppose you have to weight your options with taking any medication. - samnetwork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You sir, are crazy.
- ThePict, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Jack, homeopathy is snake-oil. Stay far away.
Choosing to refuse ANY further drug treatment because of a bad reaction to a single drug is also irrational. Stay away from that CLASS of drugs, perhaps, sure, but you're over-reacting.
I tend to agree with artemenko . . . you're going to be OK. Try to relax, and maybe even take up meditation.
@Julolidine
There's different kinds of fluoride, each affect the body differently.
You help breed superstrains of bacteria by taking TOO MUCH antibiotics. Refraining from taking them doesn't help either though, just makes it less likely that you'll be the incubator. - nightsweat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Why on Earth would his doctor have started him on those? That class of drugs is a set that's used for last resort, not first. If you don' t have a superbug there's no reason to break out the Cipro.
I've had doctors give me sulfa and penicillin and they worked fine for what I had. There's more to this story, somehow. - samnetwork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6It WILL work! Don't let the angry monkey in the closet get you!
- NealV, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I do not doubt you had a (somewhat severe) reaction to the medication, but I do not think you have fluoride poisoning. The amount of fluorine atoms present in the pills you took is not enough for poisoning (you ingest more fluorine in a glass of city tap water) and of course those atoms are not free fluoride, most all of it is chemically bound. In other words, the fluorine is negligible.
However, there is a potential here that you had a severe allergic reaction to the medicine. Still, I would absolutely be discussing this with doctors. And to say you will never take medications again is completely asinine. Untreated infections always have the potential to spread, and some day your life may very well require medications. Allergic reactions, unfortunately, can only be determined by exposure - which is why if you believe a medicine is making you sick, you need to call the doctor proscribing it IMMEDIATELY. If you bounce around between E.R. docs, its hard for them to get a feel of your medical history. Not to mention that E.R. docs are really more focused on emergencies and quick fix solutions, your physician is better suited to helping you with this. - randomgeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Jack needs serious medical help and the clock is ticking, lets help him out and educate ourselves about these dangerous and often fatal drugs."
Huh? This is a good story about a known figure in the Linux community and what he's currently going through, we all feel for him I'm sure, but that line in the summary makes no sense at all. How is reading about possible side effects of a drug helping Jack? - sersdf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5predinose is a ridiculously important antiflammatory corticosteroid used for an enormous range of diseases. any healthcare worker will tell you it should not be used chronically for many serious side effects including severe immune suppression. but that doesn't mean it's a bad drug. every drug out there has side effects, some wise man once said any substance can be a poison in the right quantity.
@tonton. you're an idiot if you think any big industry except maybe tech has people working at or manipulating digg - sporkmonger, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@Jack
You're probably going to be just fine, but you should still submit a report @ http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/ - SteveMax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Might also help you: http://fqvictims.org/fqvictims/index.htm
Good luck. - KaserPro, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"lets help him out and educate ourselves about these dangerous and often fatal drugs"
If they were that bad then they'd be called poison.
if you having the flu (granted E.N.T. is diffrent) why did you take antibiotics for a virus? - moracity, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4My wife suffered brachial plexus neuritis within 24 hours of taking Cipro. She works for the CDC and was part of the Emergency Response Team back during the anthrax scares and a round was prescribed to all members.
She suffered severe shoulder and arm pain, followed by a week of massive inflammation of her entire left arm. She's been to several neurologists and physical therapists, but nothing has been able to alleviate the pain or resolve the nerve loss in her arm. All the doctors said it was very unusual to see this type of reaction. Non one seemed to think it was related to the Cipro. We took it as a fluke, but weren't totally convinced.
Several months later, she was given Avelox for something else and within 2 hours of the first dose, she had the exact same reaction as she had to Cipro. She now has permanent nerve damage and chronic pain.
Needless to say, she will not be taking Fluoroquinolones again unless it's the only way to save her life. - DerekV, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6So the guy is a hypochondriac who is probably getting anxiety from the meds, who had a panic attack because he thinks he is dieing from an antibiotic..... Your right he does need medical help, its called xanax.
Plus, who the goes to the doctor with the flu unless you have a severely high temperature. - ncdoyle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5This article caught my attention because I think I've taken Cipro, Levaquin and Avelox at different points when working on a chronic sinus infection problem a year and a half ago. (Since fixed with surgery)
I had no idea that people had problems with them. I had zero problems, other than the standard body chemistry issues with antibiotics. I do remember that the drug information from the pharmacist warned about the risk of tendon injury (I avoided the gym while taking them). They really worked well at clearing up my infections.
These custom antibiotics are pretty pricey too... including dispensing fee, I think they worked out to about $6 CDN/pill ($60 for a 10 day supply). - itdood, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I've had PAs too. This guy is having PAs. period. If he were drinking diet Pepsi at the time, he'd be blaming that.
I remember when I first got them, how much of a crisis mode I went into. My first was @ 30. I went to doctors thinking I had this, or that. MRIs, CT scans. I really wanted to explain them away. So I know what this guy is going through now. Over the years I learned to accept them and it's a non-issue now. I got through it. Yes I have some issues here and there but nothing I can't handle. - flowingsphere, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I took Avelox last year for a sinus infection. Absolute nightmare. I already had generalized anxiety disorder, this stuff just made me feel awful. Took me 3 days of taking it to realize that it was causing my heart to race/suicidal thoughts/anxiety like crazy.
I don't know what the solution is, but dr's don't seem to be aware of these side effects. Someone needs to publicize this and put it into the TV media spotlight.. - SteveMax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6This worked for Patrick Volkerding. Hope it works for Jack too.
- AlphaEta, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Yes... the "industry" is out to get you!
- geekitechture, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I learned the hard way that Cipro is a drug with bad side effects, at least for *some* people. Three years ago I got a nasty tooth infection (with swelling and abscess) but I was too *busy* to take time off work and have it treated properly so I took my friend's leftover Cipro instead. Withing one day of taking it my body had swollen to almost twice it's size, and my skin turned bright red and felt crisp and *burnt* from head to toe. Within another day the skin on my face and mouth cracked open and started peeling off in thick wads, so I couldn't eat or drink anything because it hurt so much. The next day I went to the emg. room and they gave me a steroid shot to bring the swelling down and told me to chuck the Cipro, blaming it for my reaction. I was given a prescription for good old-fashioned penicillin and 600 mg ibuprofen pills for pain, and a steroid cream for my skin...but my face was so wrecked from the reaction I had to wash it in plain water (no soap) and moisturize it with olive oil for a week, even the cream was too much for it. It was a nightmare but it taught me my lesson well:
1) Never borrow your friend's medication. Cipro had absolutely no bad effect on him, but it almost killed me.
2) When you do have an adverse reaction to an antibiotic, it's just off the chain how bad and scary it can be.
Luckily I had no lasting bad effects from the incident, outside of three days missed work thanks to the Cipro reaction. - vonskippy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31mg Xanax q4h And stop being such a worry wart.
The actual number of times that lay persons self diagnosis a rare serious problem is WAY smaller then portrayed on tv (or the web). Getting a MD takes 8 years (or more) for a reason. - jordanday, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If you have a question about your medication, you should ask your doctor. If you're not satisfied with what your doctor says, ask your pharmacist. There is absolutely NO ONE you can talk to who will know more about those medications than your pharmacist. The biggest problem is both the doctor and the pharmacist are overworked, but at least the pharmacist is usually at a counter in a store, so they tend to try to be helpful with patient questions. I'm guessing if you were taking a medication that was known to cause psychological reactions and you told your pharmacist about your pre-existing condition, they would have warned you immediately about some potential side effects. While in most states pharmacists don't have the power to prescrbe, your doctor will at least probably be willing to try a different medication.
- dbisping, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2the doctor prescribed the indicated medication. it's how that works.
if you are being prescribed sulfa drugs and penicillin then you don't have a bacterial infection. the original antibiotics haven't worked well in decades and are likely not to work at all now. that and they have LOTS of allergy/intolerance problems that the newer drugs shouldn't. usually, the ineffective drugs are prescribed to make people shut up and deal with something that will go away all by itself.
due to over prescribing and industrial/agricultural misuse, you should consider most infections to be "super-bugs" if you want to get well.
the side effects are quite possibly an indication that the antibiotic drug is functioning rather than a reason to check to see if the sky is falling. what do you think happens to the little critters causing the problem? after all, the stuff is POISON that you have to put into your body to KILL microbes. - triscuitbiscuit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Radio- that was a big big mistake just throwing them out and that could have contributed some... When taking prednisone you have to be very careful in not only taking the right doses but doing them at the right time...
However I would like to say that there are side effects for any drugs and these people just are the vocal minority that have had these side effects. I am can't wake Amoxicillin but I am not posting webpages about it... It is the risk inherent in taking prescription medications. Sure billions of dollars go into developing them but they are not perfect and probably will never be perfect. - ubuwalker31, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Dude, find a specialist on the drug you took, and seek his treatment. Check out http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Search&db=pubmed&term=avelox+safety&tool=fuzzy&ot=Avelox+saftey and see if you can find where these researchers have offices. Or, go to a university hospital and have tests done.
- millerbrad, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Sounds like an allergic reaction (the rash, at least). How anyone could say that it was "your fault" is beyond me. Nobody knows they're allergic until they come in contac with the ofending allergic. Yeah, it sucks.
The Achilles tendon? After only one dose of Levaquin? Probably unrelated. Maybe if you were recovering from a recent Achilles injury, I might almost be convinced it's related. Probably not. - Jeffmr1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@tonton2012
Extensive testing? Not only is that outrageously expensive, but it would take days to get the results back and the infection could have spread. So yes, the doctor did the correct thing by referring to the patients own account. I'm sorry, but I'd have to say that Jack was at fault for arbitrarily taking some old medication that he had left over (you should never have left over antibiotics, because you're supposed to take them all) before heading to the doctor. Also, doctor's don't get kickbacks from drug companies anymore. In fact, drug companies can't even give out office supplies anymore in some states. From this story, all i see is some guy who is self diagnosing when it could be a host of other things. Even if it was the antibiotic, you take risks every time you pop a pill and it sucks that he happened to end up paying for it. - signal15, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Actually, this is probably one of the best places to get leads on this sort of thing. There are some highly intelligent people on here, many of which work in the medical industry. It's a whole hell of a lot easier than calling a bunch of clinics and hospitals trying to find someone.
- randomgeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Eh, replying to myself but to clarify - how does a mass of "general people" on digg reading about a condition get him help? He obviously needs a professional, not some kids reading about medications. A better statement would have been, "If anyone knows a professional that deals with these types of conditions, let Jack know".
- ThePict, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3There are a lot of drugs on the market that adversely affect some vanishingly small margin of the population. I'm sure you're physician's attitude was, "oh well, luck of the draw," and you only interpreted that as "he thinks it's my fault". Physicians are often gruff or surly due to overwork, lack of sleep, dealing with insurance companies BS, and other high stress conditions.
It's not that they don't care . . . but if they cared too much, they'd go crazy. -
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