What is Digg?54 Comments
- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23Terrorist is the new Godwin. The second someone claims someone else is a terrorist, the thread/conversation/my listening immediately ends. It is most often used by alarmist propagandists with suspicious agendas.
- MoeB, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16its pretty much like the "she's a witch scenario"
- jonconley, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Well if you type in Microsoft Port 25, it comes up in several of the first few hits. Not too tough to do there. Its a blog dealing w/ the open source lab at MS. To indentify with the open-sourcers and feel like they can communicate and connect with each other.
Probably see a bunch of good cop/bad cop play on there I bet.
Anyways, MS has some horrible business practices and obviously people seem to be shocked by the terminology here. He is just pointing out to look at past behavior. You buddy up with MS and they will just use what you provide, not give you anything in return, and then speak negatively about you the next day.
Definition for terrorism:
Any act including, but not limited to, the use of force or violence and/or threat thereof of any person or group(s) of persons whether acting alone or on behalf of, or in connection with, any organisation(s) or government(s) committed for political, religions, ideological or similar purposes, including the intention to influence any government and/or to put the public or any section of the public in fear.
Doesn't sound too damn far off from several things MS has done. And no, I won't list them all. See too many times where "diggers" (whatever they are called) demand proof or examples of this or that. Sorry, if you're ignorant of the situation and can't google it yourself, then go ahead and blindly argue your points.
BTW, I refer to MS as a company. Bill Gates himself has given an enormous amount of his earnings to charity and while I don't care for his practices, he has helped out a lot of great causes.
It simply states not to be naive. Don't trust in MS unless you have been given several reasons too. They definitely have to give several good faith gestures, before the FOSS community should do anything to even associate with them.
'nuff said. - GuyOnOatmealBox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Seems to me that Microsoft is using port 25 to either gain the trust of the open source community and try and get themselves some influence in projects, or they are reaching out because they know that the attitude of open source is to immediately distrust Microsoft and cry foul so that they can say to everyone, "well....we tried, but FOSS doesn't want to cooperate". Seems to be a win-win situation for them.
- Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Underneath all that misuse of the word "terrorist", he has a valid point. But the thing that stands out most to me is that people these days are slapping the "terrorist" label on things that have nothing to do with terrorism, just to sling mud on them.
- MikeSD34, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13It is the category it was submitted to however.
Next to "3 Comments" and "email this": "category: linux/unix"
What does it have to do with linux or unix? It could be the fact that *nix is largely open source, and that's supposedly what this article is about. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7You can't build trust without communication.
- Camman, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Mightve been a good article if the guy didn't come off as such an anti-corporate anti-MS type. Unfortunately the "great point" that people seem to think he is making really gets buried too far under the rhetoric for me to take it seriously.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9every time I hear about this I think MS is trying to patent port 25 or something. I can just never remember.
- mfratt, on 10/12/2007, -7/+13I disagree. Competition would make Microsoft adapt. If they felt enough heat, they would no doubt adapt and put out a decent-to-good product. They have enough money to hire the best minds on the planet. The whole point of Capitalism is innovation through competition. Don't take me for any Microsoft lover though. I have nothing but respect for Gates, but utterly despise Microsoft, which is why I am all Mac + Linux.
- mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11"With Ballmer calling GPL supporters communists, I doubt this can happen anytime soon. :/"
This is exactly why I agree that they cannot be trusted. First they lie about us, insult us, threaten us, support other companies like SCO, and now they want to have friendly dealings with the FOSS community and it's users?
And if you don't think Microsoft has threatened *nix, Digg a little further. Ballmer was quoted recently as saying that they believe that *nix is infringing on a few of their patents.... interestingly enough, they didn't seem to know which ones. Yeah, right.
Trusting MS to work fairly with you on open source code is like trusting a rapist with your daughter. Ok, maybe that sounds harsh, but after all the FUD and threats, how is anybody in the FOSS community supposed to trust them? It seems foolish to me. Very foolish. - EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"its pretty much like the 'she's a witch scenario'"
Me: Microsoft turned me into a newt.
Bedemir: A newt?
Me: I got better. - acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I think this article officially embraced and extended Goodwin's Law.
I don't disagree with the author, in that "on substance" he is probably right. But I had to fight with myself not to tune out his entire argument because of his unfortunate choice of using the word "Terrorist" to invoke some sort of emotional response.
Using such strong appeals to emotion causes someone unfamiliar with the topic to assume that the author resorted to that language because he had no other substance to back his argument with.
It's unfortunate. He makes good points, but most non-geeks are going to read "Terrorist", and think "Yeh, and I bet he thinks Bill Gates is Hitler too." (And before you try to make that correlation, brush up on Goodwin's Law). It just backfires.
Bottom line, playing the "Hitler" or "Terrorist" card is almost always going to lose your audience. This is not good for your message, and this gentleman had an important message... - rakslice, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6How can you misuse a word that no longer has any sensible meaning?
I mean, it's gone from describing someone who attempts to create terror, to someone who commits violent acts whenever we can't attach some other motive, whether there's terror involved or not. - venom8599, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4'Economic terrorist' has meaning, though it isn't really applicable here. 'Viral license' actually describes licenses like the GPL fairly accurately, if you can get past the negative associations of the word viral. It's not a bad thing necessarily. From Microsoft's point of view it is, however. They won't use it, because it simply doesn't make business sense for them to use any open source licenses apart from BSD-style licenses.
Not to say that I don't like open source or anything, but the main reason that open source is so successful and is getting more successful is not because of "Free as in freedom.", but rather Free (or cheap) as in beer. The vast majority of end users don't care at all to see the source code, they'd use open source because it's free or relatively cheap. - fulldecent, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7WTF is Port 25? You think that would be relevant to the article. I would search for it on google, but I could imagine what the result would be.
- Ramble, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This is an extremely stupid move. Microsoft has offered to talk, and they turn their noses at it. The FOSS community are acting as if spreading propaganda and then turning around and offereing to talk are crimes, what would happen if the armistice of WWI didn't happen? Millions of Germans would have died, and it would have been our fault.
- acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Your statement erroneously assumes that all code written and "given away" to a FOSS project results in someone working for free and not benefiting from that "good code".
- FOSS code can assist someone in building an app custom tailored to their business that they otherwise wouldn't be able to build were it not for 90% of the source code used in writing said app being publicly available and freely licensed. I am a personal example of this. I utilize modified open source apps to make money *through the operation of those apps* not the sale of those apps.
- I've found "Good Code" to be something that is very hard to come by. The problem is that too many developers believe they can make millions by selling their completely worthless garbage. Most developers are "not that good". They'd be better off expelling their creative energy in other ways, but they're stuck in this box of "I have to sell this or I'm just giving it away and getting ripped off".
- Alternatively, if it's a good enough project and you're a good enough developer, you'll become an expert in that given body of knowledge. Many developers are not good marketers or businessmen and would be better served making money consulting and supporting that application with their knowledge than they would trying to compete with it.
- From a business perspective, a company can benefit from this free software -- Linksys, Tivo, Sony and many others come to mind -- by creating products without having to devote monumental R&D because components are already available. This can result in getting a better product to market faster while spending less money to do so. If the open source software requires modifications then the side effect is that those modifications also benefit the project(s) they used. Again, I'm sure the developers who wrote "good code" for Sony, Tivo and Linksys that took an open source app and customized it for their usage weren't all working for free. - kevinski, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Exactly. You know, it's especially ridiculous that the OSS community can't seem to hold a conversation about Microsoft without mentioning any of the following keywords:
• BSOD
• M$
• Windoze
I'm not exactly sure just what is to come of this whole Port 25 thing, but nothing is gonna happen until the OSS learns to stop being a bunch of stubborn douches and Microsoft learns to stop lying to people. Say what you will. Mod this post down. I don't care. This has to work from both ends.
The OSS community loves to bash Windows XP for having terrible driver support right out of the box. It's five years old! Where was your beloved Linux five years ago? What's that? Nowhere near as good as it is now? Oh, and how about that BSOD? Oh, you mean that thing that I haven't seen in several years? C'mon, guys…if you expect Microsoft to open up to you, you need to open up to them a bit. I realize that they're a far cry from having fair business practices, but it's kind of difficult to take the OSS community serious at times whenever they're so intent on making fun of Microsoft.
You know, I use plenty of free and open-source software, but I don't let it go to my head. I could care less about making my own changes to source code. I just want stuff that works. And things are never going to work if we don't come to some agreements.
The problem is that the OSS community wants total control, as well as to be free of the evils of DRM and Microsoft, yadda yadda yadda…and you guys wonder why nobody wants to deal with you. Gee, I dunno…maybe it has something to do with the fact that there's no way to enforce much of anything in your broken community. Learn to join everyone else and follow the rules a bit. - Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Aside from the lobbing the "terrorist" buzzword, the article has a point. Microsoft has made it clear that FOSS is their declared enemy on many occasions, mostly due to the fact that MS cannot prey on FOSS the way they can commercial competitors; they have no way to fight FOSS, because they just don't understand it. They're too blinded by their own ego ("our products are the best, you should buy them") to even consider that someone would want to use something else, and that the FOSS something could be better. MS doesn't care about consumer choice or anything else that doesn't contribute to their goal of controlling the computer market, among others.
Actions speak louder than words. As long as MS remains an uninformed, underhanded, conniving, double-talking, greedy totalitarian bully, no one should trust them. - geekee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"While the casual reader may believe my charge of economic terrorism is unfair or overblown, consider that Microsoft actually threatened to pull Windows from the Republic of Korea if they were found guilty of anti-competitive business practices in that country."
So is Apple evil too since they may pull iTMS from France to avoid anti-trust legislation? - deimos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Disclaimer: I use Windows pretty much exclusively now. I plan on getting an iMac to replace the main Windows computer at home. I use MS products exclusively at work (we're an MS shop internally). I used Slackware exclusively for about 2 years around 1995 or 1996, and have used Redhat, Fedora Core, Debian, Ubuntu, and I don't know what else at random points since then. Anyway:
I just skimmed the article and got the basic jist of it (MS is the evil empire, they can't be trusted, etc.). Now, I'll agree on the Windows front for the most part, I'm not a huge fan just because of the crashes you used to have and most of the other reasons people don't like it. However, 2000 and XP have come a long way in terms of reliability (but not so much in the security department!).
On the flipside, MS's backend stuff is awesome. The Office solution (not just the standard Office package, but everything else that ties in with it) is really incredible. The integration between the standard Office apps, SharePoint (Portal and Windows Services), Project Server, Dynamics 3.0 (their new CRM), and the rest of it are really cool to play with, and put more power into ordinary users' hands (suddenly the VP of Marketing is able to create a web-based form that submits to a database, for example, or the project manager is able to work in MS Project, but also have a website get updated with any changes they save, and also allow anybody assigned tasks in the project to submit updates on those through the website, which then gets reflected back in MS Project for the project manager).
I really do think that these products are the best in their space. Yeah, it's all integrated and you're effectively locked in, BUT the integration they offer is really what you'd expect and what you'd probably want to have if you're using some MS products already. - GeekyGirl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3The site asks people to "Send us your feedback and ideas. We want to hear from you." (Port 25). In the case of public forums, especially at a company as visible as Microsoft, people may just take you up on the offer.
As GM found with their 'Write Your Own Ad' campaign, you will get some feedback that you want and some that you do not want. In Microsoft's case, "There have been hundreds of blog posts and hundreds of emails sent – both through the feedback aliases and many that you have sent directly to me. There have been rants, demands, questions, encouragement, suspicion, affirmation, ideas, pontifications and guidance." (Bill Hilf, Microsoft) - bilangew, on 10/12/2007, -26/+28Microsoft being honest? Hell would freeze over (and hosts the next winter olympic games while we're at it)!
With Ballmer calling GPL supporters communists, I doubt this can happen anytime soon. :/
The thing is, Microsoft would never let a "free-market economy in which all can compete fairly" happen, because M$ knows they wont be smart/good enough on its own to maintain a good market share. Tell me, when did Microsoft really *did* innovate?
M$ is on the top of the hill, and we're playing King of the Hill. - alethien, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Because no gov has ever extorted money out of a company before. To even think such a thing!
- acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3"This is an extremely stupid move. Microsoft has offered to talk, and they turn their noses at it. The FOSS community are acting as if spreading propaganda and then turning around and offering to talk are crimes, what would happen if the armistice of WWI didn't happen? Millions of Germans would have died, and it would have been our fault."
Armistice? Huh? When did this all become a war? And who are "they"? Does the FOSS community have a centralized PR department that makes a concerted effort to trash the competition? I'd like that job. I bet it pays well.
This all just seems really bizarre to me. How does any of this help MS or the FOSS community? Even if RMS went over there and offered them considerable help and guidance as the Prime Minister of FOSS Land, would it matter for the thousands of projects out there who don't give a hoot about MS?
For some reason people think that there's a whole bunch of FOSS evangelists engaged in strategy meetings on how to take out the enemy, Microsoft.
I'm having trouble figuring out why there is so much emotion tied up in this topic. I run Gentoo Linux and an entire desktop of free software because I like it, it works, I can get software for any task I want very easily and the interface is pleasant. I don't care if you run Windows, MacOS, DOS, or if you just prefer to stick with your microwave. If I have a say in the matter, I will run Gentoo, but I'm not going to argue with you about why you should also!
The open source apps I use are *really good applications* and they're that way *without* Microsoft sitting around a table holding "cease-fire" talks with open source software maintainers. Nobody is shooting! If they want to be part of the community, "Great!", find a project and help make it better.
Even if they've set this up to try to goad FOSS advocates into making themselves look bad ("Aren't they just a bunch of immature meanies, picking on that innocent Microsoft!"), it would only be marginally successful because they don't have a great deal of respect amongst those who would be moved by such a display. In the end, the quality of the delivered product is what matters to me. My computer doesn't run on marketing, no matter how much some software vendors would wish it did. - blaksaga, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4If you work at google and microsoft offers you twice the money, it's time to ask google for more money (or stock or whatever).
Then again, if you're at google and microsoft is trying to hire you, I'm sure you are already important enough to make more money than necessary and, unless you are an extremely gluttonous, you will realize that making an excessive amount of money working at a good job is better than making an even more excessive amount of money working at a ***** job. - PantherX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So I don't get it... MS is blogging about sending email?
I hate it when writers just assume you know what they are talking about. - dasil003, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3For the record he says "economic terrorist", not just "terrorist". He still shouldn't be using that kind of inflammatory terminology if he wants to change anyone's mind though..
- kevinski, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5By the way, anyone who is even half-tempted to mod me down should have a look here:
http://port25.technet.com/
Wow, check out those super-mature OSS community members! - 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6I don't understand what you're trying to say. Seems to me I've heard "[whatever open source] product is the best, you should use it" from more FOSS people than I've heard the similar statement from Microsoft. Despite that, Microsoft has every right to consider their products the best, that's what businesses do. The whole point of Port 25 is to showcase what Microsoft does do in the realm of examining other products. As for Microsoft caring about consumer choice, why should they? Why should any company care that there are competitors to its own product? In addition, of course FOSS is Microsof't'ss enemy in the same way that it is Apple's enemy and every other company's enemy. Any product that would lower profit, thus enraging the fickle investors, is the enemy regardless of the high minded ideals of that particular product. Finally, it is easy to "prey" on FOSS. In fact, it might even be easier to prey on FOSS than on a closed source company because you can still either just absorb the company that produces the open source product and it is particularly easier absorb whatever it is that makes the open source product good because you have the source code and can to some extent copy it.
- acousticiris, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's probable that they had a non-evil reason for setting up this site. Either way, it's irrelevant. It, very clearly, already failed. [sarcasm]Microsoft does do dumb things sometimes, and has been known to...on occasion...take actions that result in a small backfires.[/sarcasm] (Microsoft Bob style)
It's not a win-win ... It's a lose-lose.
Firstly, how could putting a web site up gain influence on an open source project?
It is *not* complicated to gain influence on an open source project.
Here's how it's typically done:
Step 1: Joining the -devel mailing list.
Step 2: Consistently offer *good and useful patches*.
Step 3: On occasion, respond to a user in need of help.
Do that enough, and you will have the trust of those maintainers. Set up a web site, and you'll just be ignored by most of them. I don't see the folks who daily support the open source efforts I follow wasting energy seeking help externally from their -devel mailing lists.
Secondly, if Microsoft's purpose is that they want to be able to tell the world "we tried but *they* won't cooperate", they are going to simply be written off. By default, given no other information except what "Microsoft Wrote" about a situation ... most in the industry will assume that Microsoft was the party at fault. They have that reputation.
Thirdly, precisely "who" wasn't cooperating? Keep in mind that there is no magical FOSS entity. The acronym itself is even ironic. There's a few important reasons that the Free Software Foundation (www.fsf.org) and the Open Source Initiative (www.opensource.org) have separate web sites. - dasil003, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Not only that, but that will have all kinds of fanaticism stored in their database from which they can create more FUD.
That's one weakness of the open source community; the fanboys will always come streaming out of the woodwork to destroy any sense of reason. All Microsoft had to do was create an open forum. - deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5This article is kind of lame but I do agree 100% with his basic assertion that Microsoft should stay away from open source. They're more than welcome to use GPL/BSD code or donate code/money to projects. Other than that, they should mind their own business.
- fernando494, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3I read it because it was in the Linux/UNIX section. Seems MikeSD24 understood. Also, why is this cabron's picture so big? Never mind, that's not on topic either I guess. Also, he has a lot of friends digging this article. You think he has some organization or something trying to get his articles on the front page? The submitter might be an alter-identity?
- Xsecrets, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3well I didn't know what the port 25 blog was so I hopped on google and found it. The home page is nice and all hey we love everyone come on in FOSS people. Then a quick click on in the lab and hey what do you know all of a sudden the real purpose becomes apparent.
"Fifty Linux distributions, Check. Fifteen versions of UNIX, Check. Now, how do we manage all of this? Learn how we leverage Systems Management Server and Vintela to manage the lab."
The are just conceding just enough to say hey we realize you use other stuff let us manage it then in a couple of years when you are completely entrenched in our management software we'll pull support for everything but Microsoft products. This is not really a new tactic for Microsoft thus the skepticism. - mfratt, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5@dasil003
Money is a big motivator. If you are working at Apple or Google, and Microsoft offers you twice as much, what would you do? Microsoft is a smart company in the business world; they just cant make decent software. - MacSuxWindozSux, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Theres nothing to discuss unless they give back Fat and maybe let us use NTFS properly in linux.
- gahal, on 10/12/2007, -7/+6It's used for SMTP.
"I would search for it on google, but I could imagine what the result would be."
Educational? - dasil003, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7@mfratt "They have enough money to hire the best minds on the planet."
See, that's where you're wrong. The best minds on the planet don't have any problem getting a job, they work where they want to. I'm sure a handful of them are at Microsoft because they get to work on interesting problems, but it's nowhere near what Apple and Google have per-capita. - rhettnyedotorg, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3he used the term ECONOMIC TERRORISTS, tongue in cheek to get his point across that microsoft is evil, has always been evil, and will always be evil.
i dugg this article because I agree, they can't be trusted. Further, FOSS is very important to keep away from their influence. the less the marketers at M$ understand about FOSS the better, I say. - starbane, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I don't know why anyone would trust Microsoft with anything...
But I DO know that throwing out (and throwing up) phrases like "economic terrorist" is probably why windows nerds call us communists. It's a stupid phrase, much like "Viral license"; meaningless and meant to do nothing but sow FUD. - sfacets, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1They can say goodbye to their families.
- bilangew, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2"What does it have to do with linux or unix? It could be the fact that *nix is largely open source, and that's supposedly what this article is about."
Because there is no political section on digg. To refresh your mind, heres the sections that would be (somewhat) appropriate for this story:
* links (well, if everything else fails, that my be the section to go)
* software (since the whole point is about licensing, why not?)
But STILL, with the few choices they provided us, we have to deal with it. And lets face it: isnt Microsoft treating Linux as a threat? Putting this story in "unix/linux" isnt THAT offtopic/irrevelant. - arkanoid, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1We want to hear from you. Please email us any comments or feedback below.
Great!!! lets make all MS open source and free!
You finally will, can't believe it! this are very good news!
Please we all want to know were to download XP source code.
I know you know guys...so please tell us.
Ahh forgot I have a name for the distro...could be...mmmhh
Doors!!! yeah OPEN DOORS!! what do ya think? - deadlock, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0How is that extortion? If you ask me the French are absolutely right about iTMS and I'm praying that they take it to EU-level and try to get the same legislation enacted as a directive. Should throw open the whole DRM/copyright debate and get it resolved once and for all.
- Burmask, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2Therefore keep writing good code without getting paid. Great idea.
- Jonty, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1It just compares it to it and says they are similar and done for similar reasons. It does not suggest Microsoft are terrorists, just enemies of the FOSS community.
- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -13/+8"Linux News says don't negotiate with the economic terrorists of Microsoft via Port 25."
I'll file that under the top ten most ignorant things I've ever read. - masterofshadows, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1port 25 is SMTP, for those of you not tech literate this is the e-mail port. basicly port 25 means communication in Microsoft's fantasy-land
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