What is Digg?Sponsored by HowLifeWorks
Who Gets To Use Unsold Cruise Cabins at Huge Discounts view!
howlifeworks.com - How to access once-in-a-lifetime trips at significantly less than full price
172 Comments
- nxusername, on 10/12/2007, -4/+35>> Fedora is only a couple of years old.
I'm sure that are referring to Red Hat's free distro which is now Fedora. - prammy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27If you read through the entire mail thread, you will see that ESR actually deleted a required file for rpm rendering his system unusable.
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01082.html
Now if you use --force or --nodeps to force the install or removal of a package you are going to experience issues. If you manually delete a library that rpm depends on, and then complain that rpm doesn't work, its your own damn fault. If you type rm /bin/dpkg and the complain that apt-get doesn't work, is that Ubuntu or Debian's fault ?
In addition he bitched about not being able to backup because he refused to use the fedora cd as a rescue cd by typing linux rescue at the bootloader prompt. In short, he refused to do anything except in the way he wanted to and bitched because his way did not work.
Fedora is not the greatest of distros, but it is nowhere quite as bad as he is making it out to be. Hell he should have taken his own advice from http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html . - cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26Maybe because it's free, maybe because people like UNIX, maybe because it's a lot of fun to play around with and use.. Did I mention free? But, not just Free; unencumbered. (Some people actually do give a ***** about computing freedom.)
- cbreaker, on 10/12/2007, -12/+35What? He switched to Ubuntu, dip *****.
- ArchonSG, on 10/12/2007, -9/+31Am I the only guy who thinks that this guy just want his epeen stroked?
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -9/+31The chances of ESR getting a Mac are less than my chances of getting it off with Jessica Alba.
- KWhat, on 10/12/2007, -10/+31"pitched me into a four-hour marathon of dependency chasing, at the end of which an attempt to get around a trivial file conflict rendered my system unusable"
This is exactly why i quit using all Redhat based distros. Every time I wanted to upgrade something on the system I was better off reformatting and reinstalling. Redhat is kind of the "At least its not windows" distro and unfortunitly its is considered the standard linux flavor. There support is over priced and over rated and it seems that most of the companies using Linux want that false sense of security. I would love to see more people and companies follow Eric's lead and dump Redhat in favor of something that actually works like Ubuntu or Gentoo.
Just me 2 cents. - porcupus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21uh, it's free. Doesn't bog down a system with "added features"
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"The fact that 95% of people grow up and realize that they _need_ a real OS?"
Linux is a real OS, ask IBM. Look at the web server metrics or the super computer (77% Linux) or mainframe. MS don't give a crap about Apple, they spend all their time attacking Linux for a reason.
Fact is there will soon be more embedded Linux installs than there have ever been Macs (probably already is). - moman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Disclamer: I am a Fedora fan (plus I tried ubuntu and got confused about what each of the fify-million repositories was for)
Raymond was running his system using the RAWHIDE repository. This only contains packages that are in testing and are expected to break. No one in their right mind would enable (disabled by default) the rawhide repository on a system they wish to remain stable. So if ES wants to bitch about Fedora, he should first use the stable repositories and try to break the system that way.
Although I'm sure I don't speak for everyone, but once installed and booting correctly, I have never had a problem with Fedora. I've had Ubuntu ( a supposidly stable version) do the craziest things when running (randomly freezing for one) and I couldn't figure out how to fix it (I'm a developer and have been using Linux for years and am not a newbie). I've also had Fedora simply crash on boot up, but as I mentioned, I've never has a problem one I get it installed and booting correctly. I'm not a fan of FUD, and would rather work on making Fedora superior than bashing Ubuntu, but will all the Fedora bashing going on, I felt I had to say something.
Use the distro you enjoy the most and are most comfortable with. If you don't like another distro, simply don't use it, but don't bitch about it as well.
My 2 cents - the3kgt2, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13You need to give up, SJKat
- dougmc, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18Maybe he's just getting ready to take that job that Microsoft wanted to talk to him about!
- sremick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12This "dependency hell" was one of the reasons I was turned away from Linux back in the day and went with FreeBSD. Maybe some of the Linux distros have managed to "get it right" at this point but clearly not all. It's a mess.
In FreeBSD, the ports system does a superb and automatic job of handling dependencies. I just don't worry about it.
(Of course, I will get dugg down because I put down Linux and promoted the "dying" OS...) - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15"The point is that RH have lost a customer"
There is zero chance that Raymond ever paid a cent to Redhat. - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13I know who eric raymond is.... Some greasy fat blowhard that's contributed nothing to open source, yet he still is given respect for his contributions for some reason...
Honestly, why does anyone care what ESR has to say for himself? - beejae, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@Dumbledorito
See, the difference is that Windows actually requires you to report to them to recieve the updates. Linux updates are not handled the same way at all. I dont have to report back to the mothership in order to update my linux box. Its just i have portage, and it will go download, compile, and install everythign i ask it too. With windows, i actually have to send system information to recieve an update.
Think of it this way. With Windows, you report to the mothership to ask for permission to have a some new stuff. With linux, you can ask the mothership for a new gun (and recieve it, the colonel is very nice), or you could just go buy yourself a new gun if you so desire. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Who me?
- monkeyrun, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12He certainly love publishing his "letters" publicly .....
- Tannerc27, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@ SJKat
You sir, are an idiot - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@netmindstorm
Fedora is a testing ground for RHEL while CentOS is a clone of RHEL. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13Sadly, everything Eric Raymond says here is true. The Fedora project started out strong out of the gate and has, from my standpoint, been steadily headed downhill since FC4. Package maintenance and repositories have consistently been the elephant in the living room no one is talking about on the Fedora development team. It will likely continue to be a problem child for Fedora and shatter all hopes of it successfully penetrating the home desktop market it so faithfully believes it will obtain. FC6 has been such a kludge that I will undoubtedly be seeking out another distribution very soon, likely turning to Ubutnu for solace.
@kwhat:
I have always been told by the Fedora project maintainers and developers to not upgrade, but instead perform a fresh install, then why is it even an option!? - HarryBauzonia, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10You obviously either don't use Linux or last used it in the mid 90's.
Both Fedora and Ubuntu (and the rest of the distros as well) have clickable installers. There's also a couple of shiny, pretty, desktop environments that have been invented since then called KDE and Gnome. You can click to your little heart's delight.
....but the fact that you say you use Red Hat on your server yet you don't understand the CLI tells me you're just trolling, Mr. Ballmer. I call ***** on you. - bestadvocate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7For anyone who doesn't know, Eric Raymond has been on the Freespire board since its inception. The recent gksudo alliance between Linspire and Canonical would be his reason for setting out his attack dogs now. I sincerely doubt that he has been using Fedora as his primary desktop since his joining the Freespire project. Rather I think this is a well intentioned exaggeration. He's right about one thing though, the Debian | Ubuntu | Freespire package management is ridiculously easier than Redhat | Fedora's RPM.
- InsaneMachine, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Allow me to explain with the dreaded car analogy.
If you have a Truck and a Compact Car, then why do you need a Sports car? Everyone has different needs.
(i did not try to pick specific cars for specific operating systems) - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6BSD was written by a university (it means Berkley Software Distribution), it has been developed primarily by students and professors in an OSS methodology long before OSS became formalised.
- lnxaddct, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Thankfully someone realizes what a troll ESR is. I think Alan Cox's response sums it up best:
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01021.html
but Christian Iseli's response is worth linking to as well: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-February/msg01009.html
To sum it up ESR is pissed that Fedora is 100% open source, something ESR stopped caring about ages ago. ESR doesn't care about the long term vision of Fedora, which is that all software is freely distributable, and formats shouldn't be patent encumbered. Sure it may cause a slight inconvenience here and there, but at least they're standing up for something, and it's something rather important. ESR is nothing but an attention whore. - MrTea, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I think he should've moved to Arch instead.
- cplusplus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I still use Fedora - and like it.
rpm works OK for me.
But they are trying to improve it too...
http://fedoranews.org/cms/node/2253
- GelfTheElf, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14So far I've seen an article where Eric can't install a printer. Another where he's Microsoft's worse nightmare? Another when he does an upgrade and toasts his own machine (wait. the OS did it)...
Maybe it is indeed time he gets a Mac and stops bitchin'.
(psst.. i can run a console and run gcc and emacs on my mac... AND my printer works and all my recording gear without needing to install drivers)
(psst #2 mac's programming tools are free)
(prepared to be dugg down)... do it if you must.. - dougmc, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Windows is Windows. Back up to Windows 3.1, it was built on DOS. In the 95/98/Me days it was still built on DOS, but the DOS part was better hidden. It wasn't until Windows NT that they really got away from DOS as a foundation.
OSX is MacOS on top of *nix -- but it's not really *nix. Well, under the covers it is, but there's a lot of differences above the covers.
There's nothing really *so* special about Linux itself -- FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Solaris x86 and others can all fill a similar niche, but when you want to work on a real *nix box, it's hard to beat a real *nix. Windows isn't anywhere close, though cygwin can help in some respects. OSX is a whole lot closer, but overall it's still very different from any *nix flavor that people have gotten used to. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Also in your criticism of Linux as a hobbyist OS you forget who wrote most the OSX code. Must be fun knowing you are running a modified hobbyist OS especially one as cheap and crap as BSD.
To be fair Apple have done quite well breaking BSD though. They've turned one of the most efficient systems on the planet into a fat pig. Go figure. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Fedora is nice distro and ESR if a ***** moron. He's supposed to be this elite hacker who does so much for the community yet he can't get fedora to work right? I'm no ubber leet hacker or even a plain hacker. I just use my computer and I use Fedora since core 1. I have installed everything from myth TV to some kick ass recoding software. Yeah I admit i had a few probs but 5 min of thinking it was fine. Everyone is screaming this distro is the best, sorry no its not. Every distro has something they offer the the other doesn't or people like better. Its Linux and its free we have choices. Fedora is of the three most downloaded distros. I'm sorry to ubuntnu users you say ubuntnu is the best but its not.
- Oldschoolhack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Eric, dont worry. There is a great community with Ubuntu should you have any questions on how to use linux.
- MannaPC, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Eric, get a life and take a shower. You're opinions don't blow our skirts up and neither does the rest of your nonsense. You're not that special!!!
Aside from that, it is a shame what is going on with Fedora =(. - wonboodoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Correction: He is an advocate for the "Open Source" software movement, not the "Free Software" movement. They are distinct. Look into some of what he and Stallman have to say about each other's positions if you disagree.
And I don't think half of a bio on him should be dedicated to a letter that some Microsoft head-hunter sent him.
Plus, in regards to your comment to MAC "fanboys", you do realize that Apple doesn't target the PPC architecture anymore either right?
So you were pretty much distorted at best on everything you said in your summary ... - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Torvalds already has a Mac though he took OSX off it straight away and installed a more sane OS (he has consistently said he fails to see what the big deal is with OSX). RMS wouldn't be able to bare being in the same room as a Mac, he'd probably commit suicide first.
- sailor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Fedora is at least 4 years old...I asume he is including Redhat releases too...
If what moman is sayin is true ..the guys an idiot too. - cantormath, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4its still better then using windows.
- lighty14, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I just want SJKat to know that I spent the past five minutes digging down all of his comments on here, and I feel that it was time well spent.
- Philluminati, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@ GMorgan
Don't ever get disrespect BSD!
I don't use it but I respect it. It IS considered by most to be the most stable operating system to date.
It's also got an amazing heritage as being a direct source code descendant of UNIX. Even if 90% of the code has been rewritten better.
Just because it doesn't install by default with user applications doesn't mean it's not an important operating system! - jon3k, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@sailor
You may disagree with him, but I can promise you that ESR isn't an "idiot".
I agree/disagree with him. The upstream relationships with the Fedora project are *****. I've still got a few mail exchangers that complain because they still haven't rolled an rpm for the clamav engine for version 0.90 (still on 0.88.7 IIRC). Yum is so painfully slow I work exclusively out of the cache whenever possible, and even after installing the yum-fastestmirror package it literally takes 2-3 minutes to locate and install a package from the mirrors.
I've made the switch to Ubuntu on the desktop, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to run it on production servers, so it's redhat for now. But, let me tell you - I'm really tired of the Fedora cycle of:
1. Build a server
2. 1 year later they close the repo's for yum
3. 6 months later fedora legacy closes repo's
4. I start having to compile apps from source
5. I get tired of rebuilding sendmail and bind from source on a dozen boxes twice a month, so I find the latest FC
6. Can't upgrade, so I'm forced to reinstall from scratch.
I've got better things to do than be in this constant cycle of rebuilding production machines, its ridiculous. - polymorphist, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Old redhat is good only because there weren't many distros around that time.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Damn, I have NEVER seen a Linux vs Mac war. I always felt the were in the same boat. Guess not.
For the record, I am typing this on a MBP with an Ubuntu box playing a video next to me. - chopsuey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yeah I really can't stand ESR anymore, I agree with what someone said earlier, he is an attention whore.
- nxusername, on 10/12/2007, -7/+9I miss the "old Red Hat". Ubuntu is doing it right (mostly). Hopefully Fedora will follow and we will have some good competition that both distros will benefit from.
- alamko1999, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5was fedoracore 6 a perfect desktop?
http://www.howtoforge.org/the_perfect_desktop_fedora_core6
then why do people quit it? - sremick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Not a fan of Gentoo. It's hard to install, hard to update, and servers shouldn't be GUI.
http://www.playingwithwire.com/2007/01/why-gentoo-shouldnt-be-on-your-server/ - polymorphist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5It's funny that you said you're running Redhat on your server for years yet you still don't quite get CLI? Can't imagine configuring a server without any knowledge of the Linux commands and various config files under /etc...
EDIT: HarryBauzonia said exactly what I'd like to say...only minutes earlier. - ucg1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@Dumbledorito
You're friend doesn't seem very bright. I'm a Linux user who doesn't like Windows, but I think that automatic updates are great for any OS. Maintaining a Windows (or OS X) machine would be much easier if you could do auto-updates for all software you have installed. A standard repository format that all software providers could use would be ideal. Maybe someone would create a "distro" that provides open source software from a single repository.
@thyarcher
The way the parent worded his question came off as a troll and thus should be dugg down. But if you really are so uninformed as to not know what the big deal with Linux is:
1. It's a UNIX-like OS. People with a background in UNIX will appreciate Linux. People bright enough to learn UNIX may appreciate it as well.
2. It's free as in speech: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html It's not the money that you are saving, its that you can do whatever you want with it due to its open source nature.
3. Some aspects of the OS are technical, but so is any other OS if you dig deep enough. In any case, you're going to have to do some learning to be proficient at any OS. Personally, I find the open nature of the OS makes a lot of things easy to figure out, unlike Windows and OS X which are more restricted environments that only provide what they want to provide.
4. Linux is way more user-driven than Windows and OS X. For better or for worse. - alq666, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Who cares indeed...
-
Show 51 - 100 of 172 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is