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129 Comments
- Mejogid, on 10/11/2007, -8/+101I don't think you get it - the actual amount of original programming that these projects do is comparatively tiny. They may submit the odd kernel patch, work on a package manager or sprinkle a few applets around, but its simply not possible to deny the importance of the big vendors who are largely responsible for the success of Linux (ie. hiring key kernel programmers, working on underlying architecture, often providing bandwidth to and supporting smaller projects).
- GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+47You're comparing Ubuntu to Red Hat? I like Ubuntu but lets make a comparison. Shuttleworth has spent $10m on Ubuntu. Red Hat spent $450m on JBoss last year. Different markets entirely. Red Hat are in the successful Linux server market and are a huge company. Ubuntu is a start up in the desktop space and Canonical might be a huge company one day. Apple and Oranges.
- BrandonMills, on 10/11/2007, -7/+41I know enough about Red Hat as a company to say that if they ever made a deal with Microsoft, most of the top talent would pack up and leave on the spot.
Novell was completely retarded with it's deal with MS, and it's going to haunt them for the rest of their time as a Linux vendor. Dell went with Ubuntu, so that cuts MS off from the majority of the Linux PCs sold to consumers. On the server end, techies get to choose which distribution they use. ( Or roll one out from scratch. )
Red Hat has a strong hold on corporate Linux distributions. They offer solid support and a rock solid platform. Most IT groups that were formerly using or considering Novell SUSE have changed in light of their new pact with MS.
Microsofts new Linux market is currently non-existent. - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -2/+33I've tried CentOS5, RHEL5 and Fedora 7 recently and all three are fantastic. The hatred of RH is mostly petty jealousy. Even when they 'abandoned the desktop' they spent more money and made more effort than anyone else on the desktop. What an evil corporation, spending millions on technology that is of zero benefit to them at the time but is of great value to the community.
- GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+26Red Hat aren't going to sign a deal with MS. They have long standing procedures in place to protect their customers from patent trolling. MS aren't the danger and a deal with them would be worthless. EOLAS and co are the enemy and while I consider the fact that MS repaid our support against EOLAS by turning on us to be abhorrent it is still a reality that MS are no threat and an EOLAS type suit is.
In any case Red Hat have stated clearly that they have no interest in a deal with MS many many times. They already have patent indemnification plans in place to protect their customers. They are worth billions so do not need the MS dollars. They recognise that a deal with MS is worthless to them.
There is zero danger. None at all.
//edit - also some of reactionary blogs on these deals are brinking on McCarthyism. First we had people spreading distortions about Mark Shuttleworth and now we have people suggesting we take aggressive action against one of the most trustworthy companies in OSS.// - prammy, on 10/11/2007, -1/+22Thats right.
If you check the history of these Linux companies you will see something interesting.
Novell, not a linux company, got on the bandwagon.
Caldera/SCO: Started out as a company wishing to license linux users per seat. They initially accomplished that by adding on restrictive 3rd party software. Caldera Looking glass for example.
Linspire: Started out as a restricted distro.
Xandros: Bought the Corel linux business, started out trying to license per copy, provides no downloadable isos.
Red Hat on the other hand started out as a true Free software company. Even today they provide source for all their packages and assists projects like centos to provide the free installable versions. They actually helped build communities.
Which is why they won't strike a deal with MS unless the deal is 100% of all linuxes are safe from Microsoft patents. Which MS will not agree to. And Red Hat would rather push for patent reform which will help all companies, F/OSS and otherwise. - kahrn, on 10/11/2007, -2/+22@lightspeed (#7234343)
This is the second topic in the linux_unix category that I have seen you troll in.
If you don't like or don't agree with the notion of free (as in freedom) software or have something against gnu/linux, then don't visit the linux/unix category. Trolling will not get you anywhere. - Redemption289, on 10/11/2007, -2/+21@GoodOld Jacob
How exactly is Gentoo not exactly good for a productivity environment? It is just as easy to manage as other distros (if not more so), and is completely configurable, which means that, if you want, you could make it behave almost exactly like red hat.
THAT BEING SAID:
I'm increasingly discouraged by the amount of "my linux distro is so much better than yours" ***** thats going on. That really isn't how it used to be. People should be more concerned about what happens to the future of linux than they are with flouting their "linux penis". I think we all need to support Red Hat as linux users, even if we don't use that distro because they really do SO MUCH for the community. If they don't stand up to M$ then who is going to? ... Do people honestly think Gentoo and Ubuntu have the financial resources to stand up to microsoft?
(general comment about linux posts in general) Digg me down if you want, but people who hurt the linux community by implying that there has to be some sort of competition between each flavor instead of cooperation are idiots.
Also, I don't see why people digg down rek2. Community projects do rule. A lot of innovation and good ideas stem from them, and they are important to make sure that larger linux companies can develop, implement, and stabilize these ideas. - Elranzer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+18The big difference between RedHat and Novell is that RedHat has always been 100% about Linux. Novell use to have Netware as a competing OS against Microsoft, and that lost big time. They purchased SuSE to try reinventing themselves. Novell has always been about money and doing what's best to keep Novell alive.
- derjames, on 10/11/2007, -1/+19@Elranzer
it is called Fedora... - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17You seem to miss how this works. Red Hat do a bunch of work, they release source, CentOS compiles and releases it sans proprietary artwork*. It's like saying down with Linux and up with Ubuntu. Ubuntu is dependant on Linux, CentOS is entirely dependant on Red Hat.
*there is nothing wrong with this and RH actually support their right to do this provided they do not use RH art work or directly affiliate themselves with RH. - prammy, on 10/11/2007, -2/+19@salomejones:
What exactly is a worthwhile distribution to you? One where you can download an iso for free?
RHEL comes with good admin tools, a feature rich kernel and a nice stable 18 month release cycle. They listen to the community and provide what the community wants in a nice tested platform. Granted you need to purchase an entitlement before you can download binary updates, but Red Hat DOES provide src rpms for you to compile and test yourself. And compiling is as easy as rpmbuild --sign --rebuild (if you wish to sign your rpms). RHEL5 supports yum so there is no reason someone cannot provide a 3rd party yum repo for updates.
They do a lot of work on the kernel, on Gnome which benefit every other distro.
I know its fashionable to hate Red Hat, but they are the one company who has succeeded without screwing their users. Hell they even help out CentOS which is RHEL without the Red Hat branding. And the Fedora project. You need to check out the fedora mailing lists to see how much stuff is done by Red Hat.
RHEL4 is a great distribution and they have done an awesome job with RHEL5. - jdhore1, on 10/11/2007, -1/+17I'm not a big fan of Red Hat, but i do think it's interesting that in the About box for almost every component of Gnome, it says: (C) Red Hat, Inc.
- InsaneMachine, on 10/11/2007, -4/+20http://duggmirror.com//linux_unix/Don_t_let_Red_Hat_fold/plain.html
Site seems to be dead. Duggmirror works though
Sorry for the comment abuse. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -6/+21Well, I don't want CentOS to fold. Gentoo isn't the best for a production environment.
- ChompTheMan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+15Why even bother making the comparison? I use Kubuntu and I love Red Hat, even though I have never used it. Why? Because like the article says, they have been a good member of the open source community. They've made it public that they won't negotiate with terr... er, Microsoft over so-called patent violation. Why create the image of Ubuntu pissing on Red Hat? I'd rather hear of an image of Ubuntu and Red Hat standing together on patent issues and releasing their quality distros. What the hell is the point of fostering distro wars in the GNU/Linux community? It's FUD.
- baalzebub, on 10/11/2007, -2/+13yup, most Linux users do not even realize that Redhat does contribute a lot to the community...
- cryptoki, on 02/01/2008, -2/+12Fedora Core, sponsored by red hat... Anything you ever wanted to do with a linbox is right here for free
http://fedoraproject.org/ - jellygraph, on 10/11/2007, -5/+13hey, MS, go home! you aint touching my software!
- BigglesPiP, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10I hope this doesn't have an effect on Fedora Core.
- xspinkickx, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8thank you Redemption289, for pointing out something that alot of new linux users seem to forget, its not about which distro is better but how gnu/linux can be improved.
- oprahsTITS, on 10/11/2007, -8/+15@GMorgan
Seriously. There is no comparison.
Ubuntu is for tinkering fanboys. RHEL is for corporations. - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7Not their field. Red Hat have only recently targeted the desktop space again (though they never stopped working on it, have a look how many important desktop projects are from RH, NetworkManager for one). Games development is too niche.
- XTX7X, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10@ cdnyny
No, it's like an ant pissing on a ***** tiger. - XaeroVincent, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7It would be wise for RedHat not to sign any patent deals. Not only would they lose their community backing but they would also loose the right to sale Linux when the GPLv3 is in effect and only have the right to fork all of the GNU components.
Linux and FOSS do violate patents but most of the patents Microsoft has are rediculus and problably not enforceable in court. No significant piece of software can exist that doesn't violate patents when millions of stupid ones exist. - compgeek, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8If Red Hat folds and goes into a deal with MS then that will really shake my faith in them as an open source vendor considering they would be in partnership with a company that is opposed to open source. DON'T DO IT RED HAT FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY DON'T DO IT!!!!!!
- samgab, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5Yeah, cos if Red Hat folds, it'll get all crumpled up...
- Revolt25, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6Red Hat, even though I don't use it, is a good production wise distro with good support. Compared to Novell this would be my choice, they pay tons of open source developers which helps a lot. If Red Hat stood up against microsoft more then it already is, it would be awesome!
- Error601, on 10/11/2007, -6/+11Oh please...no one that actually makes system decisions gives a crap about touchy-feelly marketing crap like that. It's the age old "outsider" marketing angle. This is just spam. Use it if it gets the job done at a good price.
- einfeldt, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5There is a list of 1,454 people from all over the globe who have challenged Microsoft's questionable patent claims against GNU, Linux, and other FOSS projects. Many of these people are owners of small businesses, and of course there are also lots of individuals who don't believe that Microsoft has any good patent claims in this area. Red Hat should join this list of people who are challenging Microsoft to put up or shut up.
http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?title=SMFM_list_page_12
If more big companies joined this list, then Microsoft's patent claims would lose public credibility. - schotty, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5Not their field? As if Mugshot was/is? Parent has a good point. The one thing people realize is that gaming on linux currently bites. You have a small handful of native ports from the same two companies, and a few indies, but the rest comes from some iteration of WIne (Transgaming or Codeweavers included here).
Getting youngins thinking about programming in a cross platform method is great for all parties - all platforms get it (good for the consumer), and you can reap profits from multiple angles (company gets richer, good for the investors and company). I for one, think that Red Hat and iD/Epic could do a really slick thing by making Linux the platform for youngin game programmers. And the biggest part - could be done very cheaply and be mostly a spnsorship-like inveestment. - jtb4, on 10/11/2007, -3/+7If Red Hat folds ***** 'em. It doesn't take tactics like this to preserve a distro.
- jdhore1, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5you help users in the forums, mailing lists, etc, if you can program, you offer your programming knowledge to them, even just tell people about Red Hat...It's open-source, we appreciate anything you can do, doesn't have to be monetary.
- Brachinus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4Except long-term support, and you're missing a ton of QA.
Don't get me wrong, Fedora is very nice on the desktop, and always has the latest and greatest stuff. but there is a reason RHEL lags behind a little bit in the version numbers... For a server OS, RHEL (or debian "stable") is exactly what you want. - ringokamens, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Just because they agree not to hold or use patents doesn't stop them from signing a deal with Microsoft for "protection". However I think that after awareness has been raised about this issue that Red Hat will be reassured that they have our support and won't sign a deal with Microsoft.
- xspinkickx, on 10/11/2007, -6/+9lol ok about gNewSense, isn't it based off ubuntu? All it does is take ubuntu and remove any 'non-free' firmware blobs, trandmarks, artwork etc. So can I ask how they are community driven considering they take their work from Ubuntu, who is a debian derivative. Also I do understand Canonical is a company, but isn't most of the work done on Ubuntu community driven, with funding from Canonical, which is really just from Mark Shuttleworths pockets, leader and founder of Ubuntu, but that makes it less community driven?
on a side note I do not think red hat will give into MS. Lets relax and give red hat the benefit of the doubt, they have supported the open source community, and I dont think they will let us down. - hackershandbook, on 10/11/2007, -6/+9I used Redhat - but then I used to use Slackware too ... I guess I'll be trying Ubuntu next ...
- Urusai, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5This article does a good job of implying Red Hat is in trouble without actually saying why, other than blaming Microsoft. Lame.
- Brachinus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4without Redhat, there'd be no CentOS.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Dude, what are you on?
- rek2, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3I totally agree... if they have really a good intention they could join that list..
http://digitaltippingpoint.com/wiki/index.php?title=SMFM_list_page_12 - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Good Riddance!!!!!. HHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHA
- Drahkar, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4@ChompTheMan -
You are exactly right. A Distro War is completely useless to us. All of them add a bit to the open source community. Thats the joy and wonder of the design. They can all exist and play together and work towards a better end for them all. I get tired of people trying to stir up a distro War when there is absolutely no need for one. You want a war then help us get MS slapped into place. - tatis44, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3All the project rules but specially the community ones..
Debian/Gentoo/gNewSense = community projects rules.(thanks rek2 for reminding us ) - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -4/+6"Most IT groups that were formerly using or considering Novell SUSE have changed in light of their new pact with MS."
Disagree with that. RHEL 5 is a real improvement on the workstation and desktop and is the reason people are falling back to Red Hat. They also have the best virtualisation options in the Linux space. - init100, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2@ChompTheMan
"What the hell is the point of fostering distro wars in the GNU/Linux community?"
Maybe to make it splinter? You know, there might be corporations with such an interest. :) - usacomputertec, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2IBM We Support You As Long As You Don't Buy Microsoft Software!
- nyc2socal, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2I'm sorry.. I disagree.. Most people/companies that move to the Linux on the desktop is because they're tired of paying the extortion fees for Windows/Office. (especially when Open Office is sufficient for 80% of the company).
The company I work for, has 3 standard supported desktop images: Windows, Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop. I am currently using SLED.. but may switch to RHEL because of Novells stance with Microsoft. - Brachinus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+3As much as i like debian (my own desktop of choice), RHEL has a way of keeping the beancounters and PHB happy i found. Support contracts, licensing,... makes em feel "at home" ;-)
- regeya, on 10/11/2007, -0/+2And that's one of the great things about RH; they know there's people who don't want/need a rock-steady stable enterprise-ready OS, so they sponsor community-driven development...and release it to the public, completely free of charge.
When I was in college we had a local LUG (http://silug.org) and everyone I ever talked to used RH. I switched from Slack, used it until the first release of Mandrake came out. Nowadays I use Debian but I was pretty pleased with RH and RH-based systems. Yum (was that Yellow Dog?) was a huge step in the right direction.
My big rave about RH was their continual pushing for bigger and better things. A totally Free desktop? Check. Going back to mainline glibc? Check. And their push to keep their systems Free and legal is commendable as well, which is why they pushed GNOME development so hard back when KDE had licensing issues, and why you won't find MP3 support on a stock FC install. And it doesn't end with Linux, either. Do a whois on cygwin.com if you don't believe me. :-D
My rants are probably largely a thing of the past, like their fine-grained dependencies causing more problems than they solved, and their insistence on making grand, sweeping, and (seemingly) largely untested changes in .0 releases. I feel my raves outweigh my rants, though, and I commend RH for sticking to their guns and working hard to keep their system as friendly to Free Software as humanly possible. -
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