What is Digg?94 Comments
- shrewduser, on 10/12/2007, -1/+54"Pre-Installed Linux Options
It’s exciting to see the IdeaStorm community’s interest in open source solutions like Linux and OpenOffice. Your feedback has been all about flexibility and we have seen a consistent request to provide platforms that allow people to install their operating system of choice. We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux, including our OptiPlex desktops, Latitude notebooks and Dell Precision workstations. This is another step towards ensuring that our customers have a good experience with Linux on our systems.
As this community knows, there is no single customer preference for a distribution of Linux. In the last week, the IdeaStorm community suggested more than half a dozen distributions. We don't want to pick one distribution and alienate users with a preference for another. We want users to have the opportunity to help define the market for Linux on desktop and notebook systems. In addition to working with Novell, we are also working with other distributors and evaluating the possibility of additional certifications across our product line. We are continuing to investigate your other Linux-related ideas, so please continue to check here for updates.
To read about the recent addition of Latitude notebooks to our n-series family, read Direct2Dell from one of Dell’s Linux solution architects, or visit www.dell.com/linux and www.dell.com/nseries."
well its a bloody good start i suppose! getting their machines (including laptops) certified by linux vendors should mean less hassles for end users. And they do seem to be cautiously testing the water in other regards.... should be an interesting time for linux :)
on a seperate not i submitted that Dell consider a linux based PDA: http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/62407/Linux_based_PDA - Nick22, on 10/12/2007, -3/+55Scream digg clone all you want, but its systems like these that really show companies what their customers want, and helps them improve. Plus the fact that they even started this shows that they want their customers opinions. Kudos to dell.
- JeffH, on 10/12/2007, -1/+38I like how at the top it says;
"Dell recommends Windows Vista™ Business." - TuxNuts, on 10/12/2007, -3/+37No doubt. I hate it when I'm given more than one restrictive option to chose from!
Dell is giving more choices. Censorship eliminates choices. Put down the crackpipe. - HalFTW, on 10/12/2007, -6/+31Sounds like they are going to put a little logo on stuff saying the pc is compatible with Suse. That will be good for people already running Linux - Dell would have to give out drivers making instillation and setup much easier, but most people are just going to look at the sticker, think "Oh, that's nice" and carry on using Windows not having any idea what it meant.
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -11/+36schestowitz, you are becoming more and more extremist everyday and sounding a lot like a conspiracy theorist. What makes you think that Dell is happy with their position with Microsoft? Dell would *love* for Linux to be a viable desktop OS so that they can stop being under the thumb of MS. The truth is, no major hardware vendor has yet started marketing Linux as a desktop computer OS, so this is uncharted territory. I could quote you 7 articles about Michael Dell liking OS X (which pisses of MS), or sticking it to MS in some way, or tensions between the two companies, but I don't really need to because it's well known that Dell and MS don't like each other very much. I'm hoping that Dell takes a look at purchasing system76. Linux will never be successful on the desktop (in terms of market share) without a Dell or an HP preinstalling Linux and selling it at Best Buy.
The point is, MS are the evil ones here, not Dell. I think Dell's response is fantastic news and ought to be treated as such.
P.S. And why include Intel in your conspiracy too? What have they done wrong? They do a lot of F/OSS...granted, they could do more, but please explain. - Oakes, on 10/12/2007, -5/+27Anyone notice they didn't mention their indian call centers? I thought that one was pretty popular on IdeaStorm.
- consonance, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Why should pre-installed OSes be illegal under anti-trust laws? It isn't and shouldn't be illegal under anti-trust laws. Let me explain why.
Anti-trust laws were developed to prevent price fixing across an entire market. The trusts, back in the 1800s, where big holding companies that held lots of little companies (e.g. railroad lines, standard oil, U.S. steel) . The board of trustees of the holding company would have positions in the little companies too, so there would be these huge profit maximizing organizations that stomped on the little guy.
Does Microsoft own Dell, HP, Gateway, etc.? No. Microsoft has contracts with the PC manufacturers to provide the operating systems, usually at discounted rates. Since the market for desktop computers is monopolistically competitive (lots of companies providing similar services and products), by definition these businesses are no trusts. What would be a trust? If Microsoft bought all the major PC manufacturers. That would be both vertical AND horizontal integration.
Do you realize the craziness of your suggestion - pre-installed OSes becoming illegal? That is not what we should push for. Our goal should be the availability of Linux and Windows for pre-installation, not the illegalization of all OS pre--installation. - Sharky35, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20""no major hardware vendor has yet started marketing Linux as a desktop computer OS""
HP has been selling Linux PC's for years.
So has IBM.
As for marketing Linux... would you spend the money on 4% of the population? - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18They can choose to support one distro. Anyone who already uses Linux won't care about installing the distro of their choice anyway. We just don't want to pay the ***** MS tax!
Personally I kind of see things going that way on their own, albeit slowly. Ubuntu is a pretty nice desktop distro. It's nice to get up & running quickly and just use, and it's gaining popularity. Regardless of mainstream corporate support, like you said the "techie" distros can continue on unhindered. I'm not changing out gentoo on my server for anything anytime soon, especially not Ubuntu server! (just use debian if you want ubuntu server...) - haooken, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23Ahh screw it. was was going to offer a response, but I'll just block you instead.
- Toshibi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15You know, i have been installing Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS on all manor of computers over the last few weeks as part of a new thing I'm doing....and I haven't had to go hunting for drivers for any of them yet...
From a liveCD install to a complete and working OS on reboot in about an hour....and another hour to get it to a decent desktop state...it actually takes less time for me to set up linux (with updates) now than it does for XP. - damentz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17Well knoppix is designed for live cd use (even though you can install it), and I really doubt anyone seriously uses a livecd on their computer as their main operating system.
- justnick, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13kevin45 -- I want dell to sell Linux machines so that when this laptop I am on dies, I can buy a good laptop that I know will run Linux with all it's hardware bells and whistles working. I will still probably do a fresh install depending on what dell puts on it, but it will be nice to know it will install good with everything working. I'm sure there are other benifits as well, but that is the biggest one.
- Satertek, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17And it's true. For Linux to gain any kind of traction in the "real world" (not including servers) there needs to be some type of unified distribution so computer makers like Dell don't have to worry about supporting 40 different configurations. Maybe to go so far as calling one distribution the "official" Linux, with all others being options for techies.
Unfortunately, with the Linux community divided as it is (call it "freedom of choice" or something similar if you want), I can't see this happening. - TomFrost, on 10/18/2007, -3/+13If they actually do go with Linux though, aren't they losing a ton of money that they get for selling computers pre-installed with adware, spyware, and AOL? I realize this sounds like just another kick-in-the-pants to Dell, but think about it. They pull in a decent amount of advertising dollars on their consumer level PCs, and switching to Linux would either mean that Linux suddenly has adware, or Dell loses a chunk of change. Which is it going to be?
- caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Oh well, I probably would have bought an HP anyway: http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/13681
They're already certified for Debian, which netted them $25 million in hardware sales last year. What's taking Dell so long to wake up and smell the hardware sales?
I'm not saying Dell should consider offering preinstalled Linux. But what incentive do they give me to buy their hardware v. their competitors? At least I kinda like their competitors.. Dell just rubs me the wrong way. - tropicdog, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"Pre-Installed OS should be illegal under anti-trust laws."
With that line of reasoning, enjoy your cell phone OS install and mp3 player OS install too.
Joe Six-pack (the ones who buy more of these toys than we tech savvy people do because frankly, there are more Joe Six-packs than Linux freaks) would grumble loudly and I bet that corporations are more likely to cater to them than us. - iceeblue, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I don't personally buy Dells and I don't yet use Linux but I applaud any company for considering bringing more options to the market place. Choice is always a good thing. I don't know whether I will ever use Linux as don't have a lot of time to learn it but I will not lambaste a company for offering it as a choice. After all they are not stopping the sales of Windows are they this is just another option.
I actually build my own mid range PC's at a slightly greater expense to skip all the preloaded software that takes for ever to get rid of. Again Dell not my cup of tea but kudos for listening to the market place and taking a baby step towards getting rid of it. I know it is a revenue stream for you and perhaps to adds a value to the granny computer user but I would rather play a little more and get a little less in this regard. Believe me it only takes a month or two for me to fill it up my PC with my own crap without it coming pre installed. Dancing Hamster wallpaper 5.0 anybody? - EdLesMann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8"They're already certified for Debian, which netted them $25 million in hardware sales last year. What's taking Dell so long to wake up and smell the hardware sales?" -caleb4mj
This is where I think they went right. I don't know what they are thinking/going to do but in my opinion this was by far the best step. Hear me out on this before getting upset that Debian is not your distro.
Debian has one of the most strict policies on including software into their repositories. Disregarding multiple Linux Distros and who support what, if they support Debian and can get Driver sets included in the Debian repositories, they immediately have the support on every Debian-based system (Ubuntu, Mepis, Knoppix, ect) and there would be no issues with moving those driver sets to other systems. It would be incredibly easy for those drivers to be ported to any other Linux system. Even if they were to say that Debian was the only Distro supported, the driver sets would be completely free and open source (needed to get into the Debian repositories). However, should they choose to back only Suse or Red Hat (as so many have done before) the driver sets may not be free and open source and porting them may be difficult and may even be a legal violation. That's what I am afraid is going to happen....
"I'd prefer buying a $500 MS-subsidized Dell than a $700 Dell"
Right now, I wouldn't mind and I might just buy one. The idea is to get support for Linux and then the prices will drop. There are many people out there that have been fighting hard to get Linux recognized and supported. You shouldn't just say "hell yeah I back you!" and the cower out at the last minute because things are not perfect in a blink of an eye. I am using my money as my vote to those in power that Linux is my choice and I want to see it supported more / better.
"Could you imagine trying to support end users with Linux?"
It could make their lives a lot easier. Instead of having tons of people call over silly things like their cup holder being broken, they could use the community to get support. Hell they could just say "hey we are donating money to X community forum so pleas ask questions there first!" They could save a lot of time and effort. Their support goes from the same 3 guys stuck somewhere in India, to support around the world by a large and growing community. - rmxz, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13I'm sure if some Linux fan paid Dell as much as Microsoft pays them for a similar marketing program they'd recommend whatever you wanted them to as well.
I'm starting to think that Microsoft probably pays Dell more for those marketing programs than it costs Dell to buy Windows. - nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12uh, end users installing drivers on Linux? WTF did you smoke for lunch?
When Dell ships a Windows PC they make sure to install drivers for the hardware. Likewise I am sure that if/when they ship Linux boxes they will compile support for the hardware into the kernel. I have used a dozen linux distros over the last 8 years and I have yet to track down any drivers or whatever the hell you were rambling about users having to do. - Neilyos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9You can knock Dell all you want, but don't ever say they don't listen to their customers. They may be a big corporation, maybe not with the maneuverability of Apple, but I believe in giving credit where credit is due, and I believe it is way overdue in this case.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11@kevin45: Maybe I'm crazy, but judging from your posts you have zero knowledge about Linux. Do you really use it? For some reason you come off as a troll who's claiming to be a Linux user in order to .... I have no clue what you're trying to do to be honest. Perhaps you have tried Linux once or twice and think that somehow gives you the right to make things up like "new users have to track down drivers" when drivers are really packaged in the kernel proper.
- TheNik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I think they meant to the average end-user. Both HP and IBM market their Linux-based computers towards businesses and professionals. Hell, that's all IBM (Lenovo) market to.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+14Why are you guys burying him? He's right
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@Sharky35
That doesn't prove what I said wrong at all. Does HP or IBM push desktop Linux for *regular* people yet? Absolutely not, and you're too easy to please if you think what they're doing right now is enough to make you happy. HP and IBM, when they do sell Linux computers, are selling them to corporate types. I'm talking about something entirely different from that. I'm talking about a one-page section in the catalog with hot pictures of ubuntu running on modern hardware instead of the usual cheap ***** Dell,IBM, and HP will preinstall linux on. I'm talking about a little aisle at Best Buy with laptops and desktops running XGL/Compiz and wowing the customers.
"As for marketing Linux... would you spend the money on 4% of the population?"
I don't you'll have to ask Apple on that one. - bemorder, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Basic rule of capitalism, product choice is good. The more real competition there is between Microsoft, Apple, Sun, and various lin-distros, the more they will be forced to attempt to make their product more appealing to users. Dell is making a very wise decision for his own company as well. If Linux becomes a viable desktop solution, then it will give him more bargaining power with Microsoft. All of this, if it does happen, is going to be gradual over a long time though.
- ElbridgeGerry, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7And yet it costs more WITHOUT Windows...
- zlajoie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@kevin45
If you actually did use Ubuntu or Fedora you would know that updates are regular and the majority of the mainstream hardware is supported on the initial install without tracking down drivers. - furyg3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5What about just "NO OS" as a preinstalled option?
All this babeling by Dell of "oooooh, but we wouldn't want to sell you a computer that didn't run (perfectly) the flavor of linux you wanted out of the box, that would be horrible" is BS.
Pick a Distro. Any Distro. Nobody cares. The majority of users who are choosing this "Linux" option are going to do a format/reinstall anyway...
What the "Linux" option really is is a "No thanks, I'd really rather not pay you to install an OS that I may or may not want to run, loaded up with spyware/addware. I'll just install my own, kthx" - johanrocks, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Ive been using Linux for a long time now and I think this is a great step. This could get Linux further into the public spotlight and, ultimately, help people pick the right operating system for them (apart from the current "choice" of Windows XP/Vista or Mac OS X).
- DryvBy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@ nofxjunkee
i think he's talking about the fact that an average customer won't understand it. and it's true. you need to really work retail if you think customers are smart enough to learn linux. there's too many people that can barely figure out Windows. Honestly. - h2d2, on 10/12/2007, -15/+19I'd prefer buying a $500 MS-subsidized Dell than a $700 Dell (same configuration) because they started giving users the option to pre-install Linux and lost their low-cost Windows OEM license.
When I get the machine I'll install Mandriva myself. And there's alway Knoppix. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+17So you ask, "Dell, what operating system should I choose?"
Luckily they provide this handy page for you to choose.
http://www.dell.com/content/learnmore/learnmore.aspx?c=us&l=en&ref=CFG&s=dhs&~id=os_dimen&~lt=popup&~series=dimen&~tab=topic
What choices do I see? 1. Windows, 2. Windows, 3. Windows and yes, 4. Windows
I will believe Dell is using linux when I see it.
Pre-Installed OS should be illegal under anti-trust laws. - Sharky35, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@ diggaplease...
"regular ppl" don't run linux.
That is if you mean regular ppl = average joe six pack.
The majority of the average have no idea whatsoever what linux is.
My wife was offered a job with RedHat, (true story) and after she would explain to our family/ friends that she had a job offer with them she had to explain who they were and what they did and where the research triangle was. - HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3(BTW, I've been a Windows user for a long time and am still somewhat adjusting to alternatives, but use a variety now.)
- crossmr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The price difference wasn't significant in the example given, as well if you want you can buy the windows based one and get refund on your license (thats been covered on digg before) and there is also the possibility that now that its becoming obvious what a popular choice this may be, The price might come more in line. The prices and business model aren't going to change over night.
- ropers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4FTA: "We are listening, and as a result, we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux"
Jeez. Don't they know that Novell is the Joe Lieberman of Linux companies? Given who they're in bed with, I would call them a LINO -- Linux-company In Name Only. - pkpkpkpk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Awwww! Come on now.....Its like sex for the first time...It will be scary and a a dozen additional things but at the end, it will feel nice :)
- rmxz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Two reasons:
1. A big part of PC manufacturer's revenue are kickbacks from the spyware & adware & crippleware packages that they preinstall. For every upgrade or subscription you sign up for from the preinstalled stuff, you can bet that Dell gets a nice revenue share - which more than pays for Windows.
2. Yeah, Microsoft's sweetheart deal with Dell almost certainly has some clauses in it making sure they don't push Linux too hard. WIthout such special treatment from Microsoft this would make it hard for Dell because they probably lost their most-favored-customer-discounts from Intel when Apple became Intel's most-favored-customer and Dell started selling AMD systems. - nitrokid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"What, './configure', 'make', 'sudo make install' is too tough?"
Well in fact it is for most people. They just want to google, "Photo application" find one, download click twice on it and done!
If you ask most computer users who are not computer literate and mention terminal or command prompt you'll just get a blank stare. So yeah, something as simple as that can affect the adoption of a product that competes with the current leader. - DuckFOO, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think this is a good idea on Dell's part. I wouldn't be so quick to choose Novell, however, who has lost their mind by signing an agreement with Microsoft and giving ammunition to the anti-Linux FUD machine.
- Agret, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yup, Fedora is sweet but package management sucks.
- gahzinia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Sharky, did your wife accept the job offer? I just started at RH in early January (I'm in GSS), and so far, I love it there.
- Jorenko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"we are working with Novell to certify our corporate client products for Linux"
This stinks. It smells like the "Microsoft won't sue us if it turns out that there are MS patents tied up in Linux" deal that Novell is shipping around now. I'm very sad that Dell is lining up for it. It will make any expansion of their Linux offerings very bittersweet and should go a bit of the way toward spending the money they'd be saving on Windows licenses, rather than passing the savings to the user. - squegie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think Dell has been (albeit slowly) fairly progressive on offering Linux support. I remember when I was struggling with some PowerEdge boxes 3-4 years ago, it appeared that the entirety of Dell's support for Linux was Mat Domsch's home page (http://domsch.com/linux/). Over time, his home page evolved in to http://linux.dell.com/ One poster up above made the comment about the Linux desktop market being 4% (I think this number is a bit too low), but it would make sense for Dell to devote a matching percentage to their Linux offerings.
The division of Dell that deals with the "Linux market" can and should be separate from their "Windows only" stream. I can picture an almost separate company, an "OpenDell" or "DellFreedom" brand name selling Dell Desktop systems with a Dell-supported distribution. Dell could pick pretty much any existing distribution, then fork it with their own tweaks (that they can support). Keeping it as a separate company from Dell could also be helpful in any license agreements with Microsoft. - mattfugitive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Now I've never been a DELL Fan myself, but I gotta say I like the way there thinking. That's an excellent business move to actually listen to what the customer wants. Now I'm even more interested in scoring one of them sweet XPS laptops.. I can imaging the phone order going something like this....
"Yes Hi I would like to order an XPS Lappy, hold the bs software, with a side of Fedora 5 and a 40oz Mountain Dew.... uhh no. No fries please." - kettlechips, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Whatever they're doing now is already hurting their bottom line.
- Karmalary, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Why doesn't Dell and the other manufacturers start offering dual-boot systems? I have more and more customers asking me to build them one. 'Guess ms wouldn't approve.
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