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153 Comments
- justnick, on 10/12/2007, -6/+275That's because they don't get the money from aol and other trial ware companies. I thought it would be more than that honestly. This business is much more complicated than just Linux is free and Vista is $200(home premium).
- rmxz, on 10/12/2007, -4/+88Good points on the money Dell gets from the spyware/adware/crippleware they pre-install.
There are a number of ways Dell makes money on those:
* Some of these companies pay significant amounts up front just to get their ad on Dell's Windows desktops
* Every time you upgrade some of their crippleware to a full version, Dell gets a kickback from the software company.
* Every subscription you sign up for through some of these programs gets Dell a kickback.
* Even stuff other than software gets Dell paid (like setting defaults for the search engine, home page)
I'd go so far as to say that this spyware/adware/crippleware industry is the SINGLE biggest reason why Windows is dominant. Margins on PCs are pretty slim, and this kind of revenue is free money for Dell. There even have been business models proposed where the subscription & adware would totally subsidize the entire cost of a PC, hardware and all.
Even Windows itself can be counted as this form of crippleware - I'd be surprised if Dell doesn't get some sort of incentive for upgrades to windows "ultimate", and subscriptions to Widows "live" services. Overall, I'm pretty sure that the total cost to Dell for Windows ends up being negative; but if I were in a trolling mood I'd say that that's OK because the value's negative too:-) . - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+74@cantormath You know you can always reformat. Why pay $100 more for a "linux compatible" pc when the other pc is also "linux compatible".
- hackmyballs, on 10/12/2007, -15/+79Mr. Shuttleworth, time to approach Dell and offer Ubuntu loaded with trialware from the OSS community.
I bet many would pay for a spot on the Ubuntu desktop. - hackmyballs, on 10/12/2007, -11/+52One last advice Mr. Shuttleworth,
you already have the software, now go to china, make deals with manufacturers like dell does and start a low end pc company like dell.
The time is now, apple is capitalizing on it but they are high end, you need to fill the niche.
You have the money and the balls, and my blessings... - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -5/+44"It chaps my undies that Michael Dell thinks it's OUR problem to make up their channelware market revenue."
And I'm sure it chaps Michael Dell's undies that you expect him to ignore real revenue and costs just to satisfy your political agenda.
Here's a clue as to how retail actually works: Volume affects price. The volume leader has an inherent price advantage. Don't take my word for it, go visit your local Wal-Mart where you can observe the results for yourself. Or better yet, just go look at a financial statement for Google; the volume leader in on-line advertising.
Don't like this; don't think it's "fair"? Go invent your own economic system where things are always "fair". Historically, most attempts at doing this haven't "faired" so well. - evil-doer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+30cantormath, are you saying the one with windows preinstalled is not linux compatible?
- dt40, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24Here's some irony:
One of the issues in Microsoft's antitrust battles was the Microsoft rule that OEMs could not change the look of the Windows desktop with preinstalled software not requested by the consumer. This rule was canned by the antitrust proceedings.
As a result, Dell and others now sell computers loaded with gobs of crapware. In fact, per http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070111-8598.html, this causes something like $60 of savings to Dell.
This price difference resulting from this antitrust "loss" now appears to be a competitive differentiator in favor of Windows against Linux. What irony.
Of course, any sophisticated user would just buy the cheaper Windows version and reformat the hard with with a new OS. - KibibyteBrain, on 10/12/2007, -2/+25Plus, in all fairness, no one on earth seems to understand Dell's online pricing system. I've seen the same item on the site retail for around 5 different prices at the same exact time under different sections, or sometimes in the same section using different searches or navigation methods.
Dell, please fix your site. - Sanchez, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27Are you joking? If linux was an option at the same price or even a little less I bet less than 1% would take it.
- xsxs, on 10/12/2007, -13/+31$53 bucks?!?! *****, thats a hell of a deal for far superior computer.
- drgruney, on 10/12/2007, -18/+35@dvfreelancer
Sorry buddy, but most computer buyers and myself just don't care if there's extra crap on the computer. I'll just take a day to install the gloriously cheap copy of windows I can get from the school bookstore, and my parents just flat out care. Does it come with Spider Solitaire? That's all my mom cares about. Can I open my Visio and Autocad files from work? That's all my dad cares about.
Yes I'm fully aware that there are copies of Solitaire my mom could install on her Dell Linux box, but I have enough trouble telling her the difference from a double click on an icon and a single click on a hyper link. I'll let you try to explain to her root and mounting drives and all of that fun stuff.
The reason many Mac people prefer OSX to Windows is the same as Windows over Linux. It just works. If my parents buy a Dell with Windows it's going to work, and it's going to work with the programs they want it to. Linux is not for everyone and until its for enough people to profit from manufacturers are not going to bundle it. Get over it. - maciakl, on 10/12/2007, -12/+29Most likely they also have a backroom deal with Microsoft stating that if they want discount prices on Windows licenses they can't sell OS-less systems cheaper than Windows ones. MS is notorious for playing these types of games with OEM vendors.
Note how most of the major computer manufacturers offer little to no OS-less or Linux solutions. On the other hand the companies that let you pick the OS usually specialize in Linux and carry little or no windows systems. - tylerni7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14The whole idea of having Dell sell a computer that comes with Linux is everything will be compatible from the start. That means all the wireless drivers should already be installed.
- strabes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14The reason most of the hardware/wireless works today is because of reverse engineering, not because the companies release drivers for linux.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -11/+24Here's more proof.
At Dell, Windows XP Home is $19 less than worthless
,----[ Quote ]
| Latitude D520N Duo (with FreeDOS): $984
|
| Latitude D520 Dual Core (with Windows XP Home Edition SP2): $965
`----
http://danpritchard.com/blog/2007/02/21/dell-winxphome-19-less-than-worthless/
Related:
Microsoft Shuts Down Linux 10 Years Ago Says Iowa Attorne
http://www.linuxelectrons.com/News/RoundUp/Microsoft_Shuts_Down_Linux_10_Years_Ago_Says_Iowa_Attorney
Microsoft's Dirty OEM-Secret
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/10/23/13219/110
Jury Hears Microsoft Competition Suit
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061201/microsoft_trial.html?.v=1
Did Microsoft want to 'whack' Dell over its Linux dealings?
http://news.com.com/Did+Microsoft+want+to+whack+Dell+over+its+Linux+dealings/2100-1014_3-6153904.html
Dell's secret Linux fling
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china/
Microsoft 'killed Dell Linux' - States
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/03/19/microsoft_killed_dell_linux_states/ - demonsofgoetia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12And when you buy the Windows system, how much more are you spending on the purchase of additional software later?
"the OEMs have established a distribution channel that initially defines and then attempts to control what software the majority of consumers run on their computers. For us to correct this problem, we need to stop wondering about Microsoft's backroom deals and such and start focusing on the OEMs themselves. We need to show the FTC and other parties of interest that the average consumer is not presented with a choice when purchasing a personal computer. We need to stop settling for the occasional bone thrown at us when an HP or Dell preinstalls GNU/Linux on a fraction of its products and then buries the option 50 links deep on the product's site. This is not the "choice" I am speaking of and that I envision in order to establish a level playing field." - http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8813 - JaLooNz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Now Microsoft can claim that in a recent independent study, TCO of Linux is on average $53 more than Windows.
- qorsair, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11Hmm, it says the 2GB is DDR2-667 while all the others are DDR2-533.
My guess is that they're charging more for faster RAM. - JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15@dt40
"This price difference resulting from this antitrust "loss" now appears to be a competitive differentiator in favor of Windows against Linux. What irony."
Ironic but not totally unexpected. The marketplace is fluid, dynamic and difficult to predict. Historically, government intervention has often had adverse side effects. The real irony is that given this evidence, many people still clamor for more, not less, government intervention. - dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I realize you are being coy, but the point is that even people who want Linux would be stupid not to just buy the cheaper Windows machine, wipe it, and use a downloaded OS (giving MS a nice little sales boost).
Of course, I can also see the reason behind paying a little extra for someone to make sure all your Linux drivers are working for you. - waterdrop, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Get the Vista one, and dual boot Vista and Ubuntu. You save $53 and you get the best of both worlds.
- JQP123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"Maybe they can start sticking all that crap on a linux machine like they do with windows. "
Just sticking it there is not enough. Someone has to actually earn some money by doing so. Once they share some of this revenue with Dell, then Dell can use it to help subsidize the cost of their hardware, lower prices to consumers and thus sell more computers (i.e. increase their volume) which in turn can help lower costs even further.
Money truly does make the world go 'round. You may not like it ... but that's not going to change anything. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12So what's your point? That MS uses it's weight to ensure it's the defacto standard in the market? What company doesn't do those things? MS is top dog right now and its going to do whatever it needs to to stay that way. If any of the Linux distros out there truly were worth their salt, they'd be in a more competitive position. The biggest road block to Linux adoption on the desktop is Apple anyway, not MS, but then again, Apple actually has money to spend on advertisement, where as I have barely seen any advertisements for OSS software in over 10 years. That's Linux's problem. It's not because of MS that nobody knows about Linux as you always claim, it's because the OSS community by its very nature does not have the funds to self promote. You need users before you get corporations to develop support for your product. Linux on the desktop will always have little to no market penetration as long as the linux vendors do not actively advertise (not just on the web) it's products. That's the real problem.
Just last week, I had about 8 calls at work from various vendors hawking their MS based wares to me. I have yet in over 15 years in this industry had one single phone call or email in regards to OSS for my business needs, but I guess that's Microsofts fault huh? - TheWriteGuy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Well, to look at it another way, that $53 you're paying is for a system that isn't slowed down with adware, cripple ware, and trialware you don't want to use and have to spend an hour at least uninstalling...
- SupermanX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10This is just pure hype. The author of the original article is not familiar with Dell, nor how they sell computers. Let me give you an ALTERNATE set of links for Dell Computers:
No OS ($1,252)
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=blcwgn4&s=bsd
XP/Vista ($1,349)
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=bldwg1d&s=bsd
As you can see they are identical, with the exception of the OS. The original article compares an ON SALE laptop (w/ XP/Vista) vs a NOT ON SALE laptop with no OS. All you have to do is compare the NON SALE prices of both, to see the reality. - dacheetah, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11@carguy84:
"Certainly no typical Linux user is going to use the Dell, they'll be advanced enough to build their own and save $$."
The article refers to a laptop. While most *nix users can build their own desktops from parts, saving huge $$$, laptops are an awful lot harder to build from parts. I would almost never buy a desktop pre-built, since it's very rare that any company will sell a desktop system that is cheaper than the sum of it's parts, and still has parts I want. But laptops, sure you can add things like bigger HDDs, more RAM, and if you want to mess around a bit, aftermarket wifi cards, there isn't much more you can do hardware wise on most. And if they have software "valued" at $200 vs software that is $0, the free one should be ~$200 cheaper, not $56 more expensive. - Niirs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11SniperSlap, are you retarded? MS "holding back the industry" - MS has developed some of the most used and industry changing software ever? Even if you don't like MS; you can't argue that their server system, business solution and developer tools - not to mention Office are the foundation of most businesses today. Not that they are "Forced" to use MS, simply MS has provided what they need. What has anyone else done for us lately? Sure Adobe, Oracle (and probably a few more) have made significant changes in how we do business; but help me see how MS has led to the downfall of the industry? Dork.
I don't think anyone would say that computing has degraded over the past 20 years? But; if you are a dinosaur PC user that doesn't do well with change, then SniperSlap - we can see how you are having a tough time with all this 'new' stuff.
qualar said it best - don't take it personal it is just business. - chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13First of all, open source was never supposed to be a replacement for windows. It's not supposed to be like windows and it never will. It's the fault of companies not supporting linux (lack of good drivers etc), that is one of it's downfalls, but it is getting better. I've installed linux on many systems and the only piece of hardware I couldn't get to work right away was a no-name tv tuner (which is a bitch to get working in windows anyway).
- saska, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6It's Microsoft FUD when a hardware vendor (called "Dell") is selling the hardware and setting the price points and the story is from the "blog of derek buranen"?
Bit of a stretch there. - xptweakerntn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6for all the people saying that $53 is an ok price to pay for a better computer (i think you mean superior OS), you don't think. by the cheaper computer, and then install linux on it, save $53, and still use the superior OS. linux can be tricky to install, but only sometimes, but for me, it takes me 20 minutes to install ubuntu, only 20. i actually timed it, windows takes about 1 1/2 hours or more, doesn't it? it is easy and fast to install. fedora core 6 takes about 4 minutes, but they are both easy to install.
- neko, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9So.. the No OS option costs $53 more than the Vista option.
Can I now infer that the price of Vista as sold by Dell is $-53? You'll pay me $53 to take a copy of Vista from you? Great! I'll take your entire stock! - CurtHowland, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9@ jqp123,
"The real irony is that given this evidence, many people still clamor for more, not less, government intervention."
Beautifully said. Thank you. - johnstar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6its all about choices, the best thing to do is take the oem ad subsidized garbage and reformat when you get it and install a clean copy of Windows or Linux.
- johnstar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6twenty minutes to install ubuntu? you need to burn to a dvd I install in 5. (higher data transfer rate)
- hellotyler, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Some people are willing to pay money NOT to use vista I guess. :)
- qualar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Some people want it both ways. Dell manage to sell their hardware at a competitive price because they install third party trials. People who don't want this stuff can just reformat and they can install what they want a benefit from the reduced cost. Because a lot of this 3rd party stuff is not coded for Linux, Dell cannot use that revenue to reduce the hardware price. Dell is not been greedy here its just economics. Also remember Dell get MS OSs lot cheaper than a consumer would pay even for an OEM version. This is not some conspiracy against Linux.
- dacheetah, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@Niirs:
>> most people run a GUI on top of the OS kernel with that "windows look"
>> many Linux distributors create desktop apps that are very similar to MS - kind of "like" windows.
You mean a GUI like what apple stole from Xerox? The GUI is the natural progression for the OS, this does not mean that because one is attempting to be like the other.
>> Then you say that companies don't support hardware with linux drivers - but your next sentence says that they do because you have apparently installed
>> it on many computers and never had a problem???
He said that when these problems occur, it's usually the fault of the hardware manufacturer, but that doesn't mean that there can't be improvements, and many of the devices that do not have official drivers for linux have reverse engineered drivers built by people who shouldn't HAVE to make them. Last time I installed linux, EVERY piece of hardware worked, although I did have to install the nvidia drivers manually since they couldn't be included under the current licence.
>> Remember that Windows and Linux are the same age; and like brothers - they did learn a lot from each other.
Linux is 6 years younger than windows. (Windows DOB: 1985, Linux DOB: 1991)
Linux is closely related to GNU, which was born in 1984, but windows was basically a GUI for MS-DOS, born 1982.
Pretty much any way you look at it, linux is younger, and yes, it has learnt from the mistakes of it's older sell-out "brother" windows, and at the rate it's been going recently is going to become the clearly superior "sibling" before too long.
At the moment each OS has it's own advantages, and I do still use Windows alot, but it's biggests advantage is based entirely on market share, and bully tactics to hold that market share. And such an advantage cannot last forever, the bully will eventually be beaten down, and the market share will shift, and then the advantages of windows will be significantly fewer. - Niirs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6SniperSlap .... bla bla bla "I hate MS and everything about them" but ... uhhh "I definitely support them because I own Visual Studio and a book" Make up your mind, man. Come on S.S., tell us your using windows right now...
Bye the way; are you Dwight Schrute from "The Office" because you sound a lot like him........... - thelazylizard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Check out the RAM scam ....
512MB, DDR2-533 SDRAM, 1 DIMM Integrated [Included in Price]
1.0GB, DDR2-533 SDRAM, (512MB Integrated) 2 DIMMs [add $79]
1.5GBMB DDR2-533 SDRAM, (512MB Integrated) 2 DIMMs [add $139]
2.0GBMB DDR2-667 SDRAM, (512MB Integrated) 2 DIMMs [add $510] (How is this price accurate considering that 1.5GB is $139 ?)
DELL SUCKS!!! - baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8it would be worth the extra 53 bucks to NOT have to fdisk the MS and other addware and other miscellaneous crap off the PC and simply boot my preferred OS/distro...
- cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"there was some bruhaha over exactly that many years ago if I recall correctly"
And they lost the lawsuit over that practice, and have agreed to continued scrutiny by the DOJ over it since.
So the answer to the question is no, they do not still have "per-processor contracts", because if someone presents evidence that the practice is still occuring, the US Government gets the profit in the form of associated fines. - alamko1999, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Yes Open source is wonderful, and if you dont like open source dont ever use open source software. And dont blame your wireless network and your game in linux, blame the company that did it for they dont make their product platform independent and sometime they dont comply with standard that makes your game/wireless not to work.
Its more expensive coz its new, anything new cost more but time will come that it will be less that M$. - radiofrequency, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The US DOJ's antitrust settlement with Microsoft technically forbid Microsoft from negotiating such contractual obligations. Even without the antitrust settlement, the price-fixing you describe ("not permitted to undercut the price of Windows systems") is a crime.
- pyite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I would be willing to pay extra to ensure that Microsoft doesn't get licensing revenue.
- DuckFOO, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I just bought a Dimension e520n through Dell Small Business, which is a version of the e520 that has no operating system. I saved $40.00.
It was quite interesting to compare the e520n and the e520 because the options weren't the same for both. The e520n's low end Core 2 Duo processor was the E6300, where the e520's was the E4300. Also, Dell forced me to have a floppy drive with the e520n, where the e520 did not (it was an extra option).
I do want to say that I won't be running Linux on this new computer but XP. I have a full retain copy of XP and don't want to upgrade to Vista at this time, so I saw no need to give Microsoft more money.
I want to note that the return policies for Dell's N-Series computers are a little different. According to Dell's return policy:
"n series products purchased from the Small and Medium Business Sales Division may only be returned within fourteen (14) days from the date on the packing slip or invoice.[1]" This is usually 21 days for regular Windows based computers.
[1]http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/policy/en/policy?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~section=010 - cquinnd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4One would not think that if one includes the other costs of running a business.
Dell undercuts the cost of the hardware, because they can buy it in large enough quantities to gain volume discounts, that they make up for in the value added with additional software and peripherals sold with the system. Even if they count on the sale of some peripherals from a linux "halo" effect, they still have to adjust costs of other components to equalize margins and sales projections that have already been set with their Windows systems.
The difference to your estimate is $34 on the purchase of one system, the difference to them is $34 x thousands to hundreds of thousands of systems sold in the course of a year; and how that difference pays for other parts of the business. - tuzziel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@rmx
"spyware/adware/crippleware industry is the SINGLE biggest reason why Windows is dominant"
are you crazy? if you install that ***** then deal with it, that apply for any OS, Linux is no exception, windows is dominant due to major support from the hardware industry, also windows is comercial platform while Linux manifests itself as somehow 'free platform', many people simply do not trust 'free' products - qualar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6SniperSlap you stated "Wake up and smell your own complacency, dick."
Why am I not surprised at this comment. Why we all have a sensible debate without resorting to childish insults.
The truth about Microsoft is this, it's a big company and the current market leader this will always make them the target of negative comments. The comment you say about MS holding the industry back, Come On i don't think anyone can disagree that if it had not of been for MS the home adoption of the Computer would have been so swift.
SniperSlap I understand you are on the Linux side of the fence but please don't devalue your comments by been rude.
I - nitrokid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Damn right, but people are just cheap and whiny
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