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- jsully, on 10/12/2007, -5/+66I'm glad to see Compiz starting to get the credit it deserves. It really seems like the Compiz developers are more interested in building a stable foundation to work from. The fact that Beryl forked and chose a license purposely so that Compiz could not take code back (mind you Beryl can still take code from Compiz) really upset me. Couple that with the fact that *every* single Beryl update in the last 3 months has seriously broken things and it's easy to see why my support now lies with Compiz. I would like to point out that I'm very thankful for all of the work the Beryl team has done.
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31If Beryl keeps heading down the path they've forged, they'll soon find themselves becoming just a plugin ideas factory for compiz. In fact, it already is like that. Because of the one-way direction of code-sharing between the two projects, compiz will just have to end up rewriting all the plugin work done by beryl.
Plus the big three (opensuse, fedora, and ubuntu) have all chosen compiz as the default desktop compositor. All that duplicate work for making (admittedly impressive) plugins is quite a shame. - Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+31I find the key problem with Beryl is that it's actually developing to fast. The patches are generally of a lower quality and when they encounter an infrastructure they hack around it instead of committing patches up stream to fix the core of the issue. This means that it may become less maintainable in the long run unless they really work to clean it up, and that there are some really odd bugs involved (I had one where an xorg setting caused the title bar to flicker between previously display titles and the current one).
That said, there's certainly more innovation going on in the Beryl project and users looking for a more customisable and fun window manager will do well worth it. Regardless, compiz is meant more as a replacement for metacity (the compositng patch set for metacity was stopped for this reason) whereas Beryl is a power user toy, making the former a more sane option to be installed by default. Each to his own. - 98acura, on 10/12/2007, -6/+34www.linuxfromscratch.org
roll your own then. - fjleon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27beryl is cooler, but it is unstable on some hardware because they chose a faster development model that result in cool stuff in the short run.
Compiz is slower, because they are trying to do it the right way.
Anyway i support both projects. They may be eye candy, but some of them actually improves productivity, for example the expose-alike features and the zoom plugin are a must. - PleaseJustDie, on 10/12/2007, -20/+45I'd rather have beryl.
- pbaehr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21@lpcustom: I believe ubuntu-desktop is a meta-package. It doesn't matter if it gets removed later.
- junkalam, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22From the looks of it, the opposite might happen. Apparently there's a level of animosity between the Beryl and Compiz teams.
David Reveman of Compiz on Beryl:
"I know that some people are concerned by this and the fact that they are forking everything we do without giving anything back but there's nothing to worry about, people will sooner or later understand where the real work is being done."
I sure do understand the frustration he and his team might be feeling, but you have to give the Beryl folks credit for developing a cool fork. One of the main reasons that made me want to try linux for the first time over a year ago, was the cool beryl effects.
Thanks for the link schestowitz.. - lpcustom, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Beryl on my PC is more stable and a lot faster than Vista's Aero ....and MS actually sell Vista as non-beta software. So if Beryl isn't stable enough to go into Ubuntu.........ah nvm it's too hard to explain to them....
- lpcustom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15If you don't care about Ubuntu...here's a thought...don't read something that's completely about Ubuntu....That way you don't feel the need to post a comment about the distro for n00bs.
You aren't helping the image of GNU/Linux at all by saying Ubuntu is for n00bs. It's great that Sabayon hasn't given you any probs. How about writing an article about it, instead of comparing it to Ubuntu. I've used most distro's and just like Windows its not really about the OS itself so much as it's about the user. If the user is good...the OS will work well. If the user is an idiot...well you wind up with a box that's hosed because they try to download My_wife_with_a_candle_in her_ass.exe(which is around 400 KBytes and they thought it'd be a good full length movie) from Limewire.
There are plenty of experienced Linux users that use Ubuntu, just like there are plenty of n00bs using Sabayon. I use lots of different distros. I prefer Debian or Arch but that doesn't mean I'm going to say everyone else is a n00b because they use a certain distro. It's all ***** Linux. - evanfrey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15This is taken from Mark Shuttleworth's blog
"Neither Compiz nor Beryl have the requisite stability and compatibility to be a default option in Feisty."
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/95 - Wyzard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Ubuntu aims for out-of-the-box desktop convenience so they have an "ubuntu-desktop" metapackage that brings in all their standard desktop stuff. You can remove it if you want, though it's a good idea to keep it since it can cause new things to be installed automatically when you upgrade.
You're still free to use another window manager if you prefer; there's no harm in having Compiz installed but not used, aside from a small amount of disk space. Ubuntu is not "taking away your choice"; they're just providing a convenient set of defaults out-of-the-box, because out-of-the-box convenience is the main point of Ubuntu. You're free to use other distributions if you prefer, too. - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22But Beryl and Compiz could coverge. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/compiz/2007-February/001413.html
- ordminute, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16Dear Threepio,
The reason why Linux tends to have such wily names is generally to avoid trademark disputes. When the Apple decided to trademark the word 'Numbers' they had to write out a big check and hire a couple of extra lawyers with intelligent haircuts. I personally find that white-washed generic names for programs like 'Mail' and 'Numbers' smack of techno-colonialism and anyway, while not challenging memory they are a wee-bit boring.
Best,
Millions Still Living. - Hoov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12...didn't the Ubuntu guys just say a week or two ago that they'd be foregoing both Beryl and Compiz for the time being? Or was that just Beryl they were reffering to?
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12"The compiz guys are going more for more solid but less flashy desktop,"
Actually I think that's a mischaracterization. It only seems that way because the bulk of beryl development goes into creating plugins and not the infrastructure (which they can afford to do thanks to compiz). Eventually everything you see in beryl effects-wise will be available in compiz through a pluggable effects system.
The compiz guys care just as much about flashiness as the beryl guys do. - straxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11"but is gnome also going to depend on this desktop-effects package?"
No. It's just the meta package. Removing it means nothing. Practically everything installed by default in Ubuntu is in that meta package. It's sort of the point. - diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11No...I was the submitter of the story you're talking about. It was actually the closed-source graphics drivers installed by default that got nixed for the feisty release. Since those drivers are required for compiz, the user will have to install them himself and then turn on compiz to get desktop effects.
- Doriath, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12"Don't go around spreading rumors that Beryl is stealing and Compiz is innovating..."
It's not a rumor, but a fact, that Beryl is a fork of Compiz. - Mejogid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@shakin
Ubuntu uses the desktop effects, which is meant to be in line with the Gnome HIG making it integrate with the Gnome desktop far better than the beryl settings manager. It also has some more complex and customisable configuration front ends, I myself use the compiz settings manager. All of them are better than the Beryl settings manager, which is way over the top right now (they're taking the approach that every variable should be easily user customisable, with the effect that it's so overwhelming that none are IMO - the opposite problem to that of the Gnome project). In general, compiz to me seems like a window manager while beryl seems more like a geek's toy (not that that's a bad thing... so I use both). - Hoov, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10...well they kind of split up for a reason.
- TRexesInF14s, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I don't think beryl is quite ready yet for a release in a stable distro, but it's getting very close. It's too much of a headache for an inexperienced user to deal with if something goes wrong (not to mention the need for Xgl with some ATI cards). I still prefer beryl to compiz though.
- lpcustom, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16That's my point....if ubuntu-desktop depends on it...when you try to remove it..it's going to remove ubuntu-desktop....
- wired4u, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12try apt-get remove compiz should get rid of it.
- straxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Actually, it does. If you want to modify and distribute GPL code, it must also be released under the GPL.
- ray901, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Anyone using the term 'n00bs' when trying to put-down Ubuntu users while at the same time glorifying their own distro is an idiot and will get dugg down.
- ssam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8basically code can move from MIT/BSD to GPL, but not the other way.
if you distribute GPL code, then it must retain the GPL rights.
if you distribute MIT/BSD code you can remove rights.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_and_GPL_licensing and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_licenses#BSD-style_licenses - eddyc, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Stability is more important to the devs at ubuntu than flashy fx
I love beryl a lot but as cool as it is , it crashes a hell of a lot
The compiz guys are going more for more solid but less flashy desktop, - straxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"I don't really care about Ubuntu"
But you decided to comment about it on a story about Ubuntu.
"they are an OS for n00bs and probably shouldn't confuse themselves with 3D desktop cubes"
Yeah. Eye candy really seems to hurt the usability of Macs.
You fail at trolling. - lpcustom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7NTFS-3G google it
- diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7then direct your email to ATI and nvidia
- pauldonnelly, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6More like they're going for a solid desktop first, which can be made flashy with relative ease later on.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The latest ATI driver works with AIGLX.
- shinda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6They make things look and play nice, and make your desktop more fun to use.
- lpcustom, on 10/12/2007, -12/+18I love it when distro's take away my choice. Normally I'm a Ubuntu fan but I don't see why the ubuntu-desktop meta-package should depend on compiz. What if I don't want compiz? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but making it a dependency doesn't sound like a good idea.
Edit: it looks like they have this backwards...the compiz desktop-effects metapackage depends on ubuntu-desktop....that would make more sense. - mejason69, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Ahh its not such a big deal men....well at least I do not think so. Suse installs Compiz and XGL by default... I just uninstall those suckers and then load up beryl on the nvidia driver and its pretty much smooth sailing.
Compiz is sorta boring in terms of effects when compared with beryl! ahh to each there own! :-) - laplacian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7They shouldn't converge. It's better when there's competition. I think choosing Compiz is a good choice. I've been using Beryl for the past few months and it's way too unstable.
- OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11ubuntu desktop has to depend on a window manager. It's not taking away your choices by depending on compiz. You can install Window Maker or whatever without removing ubuntu-desktop package. Just like you don't have to use metacity today, you just had to suffer with it being installed.
- Ademan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I agree with the sentiment that compiz is "better" in the sense that it's more stable, and I have the feeling it has more mature code. On the other hand, it's too stagnant for my taste, and the Gconf dependency really does get to me. I love GNOME, it's my primary desktop, but I have to say Gconf was one of the biggest design mistakes they could have made. Tying configuration to something as broken as gconf is a terrible idea if you ask me, in fact, multiple configuration backends sounds far more reasonable than the current setup if they refuse to migrate.
- ssam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5for people with a intel card, or an oldish radeon, all they need to do is turn on desktop-effects in the control panel.
for people with cards that need *spit* closed source drivers, they will need to install those. i have heard good things about a program called envy which can do this easily. - parax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I liked Beryl until about a week and a half ago when it suddenly broke and every version I force still has the same problem: the desktop is just a white cube. At first I used a workaround, but I decided I'd rather my system not be supported by a series of sloppy hacks for the sake of a couple cool visual effects.
- ssam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4you dont have to use it.
most people dont use everything thats in the default install. personally i dont use evolution, but i dont mind that it takes up a bit of disk space, i have plenty.
if you want to pick about what you install, then do a server install and add what you want.
there has been talk in the past about making it possible to remove things without removing ubuntu-desktop, but i don think it has come to fruition. - Netwatcher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Please don't start a digg war over this, but could anyone point me to a nice side by side comparison of Compiz vs. Beryl.
I've been using Compiz for some time now, but would like to know what the advantages/disadvantages of switching might be?
Thanks I appreciate any help. - stable, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@ junkalam
> I sure do understand the frustration he and his team might be feeling, but you have to give the Beryl folks credit for developing a cool fork. One of the main reasons that made me want to try Linux for the first time over a year ago, was the cool beryl effects.
Except that beryl didn't exist over a year ago and compiz was giving its first steps outside of the lab.
Now seriously: I've been using compiz since the beginning and I can testify about its amazing stability since August '06. It pissed me off that the beryl team was getting all the attention when it was Reveman who began it all and made everything possible. - OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6compiz - MIT licensed, just like X11
beryl - fork of compiz with many changed/enhancements. and re-licensed as GPL for no good reason. (other than it is "cool" to use GPL these days) - diggapleaze, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Edit: it looks like they have this backwards...the compiz desktop-effects metapackage depends on ubuntu-desktop....that would make more sense."
No! :) You just got it backwards again! ubuntu-desktop actually DOES depend on desktop-effects! That's what this story is about: compiz is installed by default. It's just not turned on. - shakin, on 10/12/2007, -14/+18Does Compiz actually have a user interface for configuration yet? Beryl is more popular because it's easier to install and easier to configure. Gconf is crap. Don't go around spreading rumors that Beryl is stealing and Compiz is innovating when Compiz doesn't even have a configure applet (or at least it didn't for a long time).
I also like how Beryl is removing Gnome dependencies, making it more portable than Compiz. KDE users shouldn't have to install tons of Gnome stuff just to run their window manager of choice. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4NTFS-3G is now version 1. V1 means a lot in Linux land, when they say ready for release they mean it.
- Koppie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@fjleon & eddyc: you've got it right. I use Beryl too, but I admit it's not ready for a stable distro. Compiz is much more stable. If I upgrade to Feisty, I'll still have to install Beryl manually. But you know what? With (K)Ubuntu's built-in AIGLX support, it's not that hard any more!
You know what's refreshing? This thread hasn't degenerated into a "mine is better!" "no mine is!" thread. Maybe Beryl & Compiz users are finally learning to get along, even if the devs won't. "Compiz-y and Beryl-y, living together in harmony!" - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3There was a minor rev of the proprietary driver recently which I've heard reports that it is working from a few sources. This doesn't necessarily mean it is working for all ATI cards but is working for some that didn't work previously. I first heard on the linux action show podcast (which I highly recommend) but have since had it corroborated by others.
Note I haven't tried this myself but I trust the sources to be correct. This still doesn't mean the drivers are great either, just that they work at all. -
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