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youtube.com - Musician and Best Buy employee, Keith Parsons, rocks his Best Buy holiday campaign audition.
63 Comments
- gordmoo, on 01/20/2008, -0/+26everyone is adding compositing to their window managers. metacity (gnome) is getting compositing support fairly soon, xfce already has a compositer and has had one for a while now, kwin4 has one... *no one* is switching to compiz, its something added by your distro not the desktop environment
- MarkKezner, on 01/20/2008, -3/+26To each his own. That's what Linux is all about anyway.
- shakin, on 01/20/2008, -3/+26Good job on not reading the article, which clearly states a logical argument in support of the idea that switching to Compiz may have involved more effort than adding compositing to KWin. Most importantly, KDE would still have to support KWin as the fallback window manager because Compiz doesn't work without compositing.
- Vektuz, on 01/20/2008, -0/+20They do have a point. Compiz is a great compositing manager and has lots of effects, but its really a terrible window manager. It even has problems remembering placement of windows and such.
KWin is a great window manager, but has only just grown compositing ability. Basically they decided that a mature, well functioning window manager is more important than a mature, well functioning compositing manager - you can do without the effects, but working with a immature window manager really gimps your ability to actually get work done.
I'm not sure if they made the right choice, but I do agree that the ability to turn on and off the compositing should not mean having to switch window managers entirely. Gnome/COMPIZ for example is very different from Gnome without it, even in the way windows are maximised, move around, and remember their positions, and so on. I think the KDE team wanted something that behaves identically as without the effects, when they were turned off. I actually like that way of thinking better - compiz is a bit of a headache when it gets to things like window placement, and the fact that the window menus are different, and some functionality is missing, etc, compared to non-compiz gnome. - hadak, on 01/20/2008, -5/+25I think agree with their view that they shouldn't have to keep up two window managers, in case one fails, and they'll have different looks, feels, and feature sets. i understand where they're coming from - and that's why i don't use compiz.
- shakin, on 01/20/2008, -0/+17So you think that every system is capable of running composite effects? What about ATI cards with the free driver? What about older systems? Compiz's greatest weakness is the fact that it can't operate without compositing.
- Sairgem, on 01/20/2008, -10/+27I digg you down not for using gnome, but for just being a jackass.
- ha1f, on 01/20/2008, -0/+16Uhh... The reason that KDE apps look off under Gnome (and the other way around) is because of of GTK and QT. The toolkits are what make things look different, a window manager just... manages windows.
- Vektuz, on 01/20/2008, -0/+15It sounds more like the problem is that Compiz is not just a compositor. If it were a compositor ONLY, there'd be no problem running it on top of KWin as your window manager. However, it not only composites but also replaces your window manager. So they decided that instead of allowing that, they will use KWin and put a compositing layer on top of it, one which can be turned on and off without breaking underlying window manager functionality such as saving window positions, other such tasks. I think this is actually a really good plan.
Compiz grew out of the whole 'lets get something cool running asap' situation. They got something really cool running, asap. Unfortunately, its just not a very good foundation. The KDE people stepped back, looked at what that development ended up with (a monolithic window manager + compositor) and decided it would be better to break them apart, or at least, write the WM in such a way that the compositor isn't part of it. That way one WM can be written that can work with, or without the compositor effects turned on, and it wont give the user different menus, etc.
If you're curious about this, try it on your compiz system - turn compiz off, check the window menu (usualy by clicking on the program's icon in the title bar or right clicking on it, on your task bar) and then do the same thing with compiz turned on. It becomes pretty obvious that the compiz system is completely replacing the window manager, as the menus are different (and compiz is pretty sparse). - oobuntu, on 01/20/2008, -3/+16we also see further down the article that KOffice2 will probably get a summer release. yay!
- regeya, on 01/20/2008, -0/+12Compiz apparently works with KDE4...choice is bad?
- ha1f, on 01/20/2008, -0/+11So when compiz fails, what would they fall back to? Oh, right _KWIN_. They built compositing into Kwin, and there's nothing preventing users from replacing it with compiz, so who cares?. You're complaining about nothing. Metacity has built in compositing, why aren't you complaining about them not being compiz? God forbid someone doesn't want all that ***** eye candy on their screen.
- altrego99, on 01/20/2008, -3/+13Read the ***** article. It says with Compiz it would be lame. KWin will have it's own compositing features, as well as proper integration with KDE, something which Compiz never had.
- hpfilter, on 01/20/2008, -4/+13From the article :
Compiz currently does not work at all when compositing is not possible, thus requiring a fallback window manager for such case. This in practice would mean that KDE developers would be required to work on improving Compiz and would have to keep KWin at least for maintenance as the fallback for Compiz, thus having two window managers for KDE. Besides the developer work of taking care of two window managers this would also bring many user problems resulting from two different window managers, with differences in the look and feel, feature sets, and bugs. - dualscreenman, on 01/20/2008, -0/+9If you'd actually read the article carefully, you'd have seen that integrating compiz in with KDE would require much more effort than giving KWin its own compositing abilities. Plus, Compiz-KDE integration is lack luster.
Lastly, you can use Compiz with KDE 4 so you do have a choice, just like the poster you replied to just said! - ha1f, on 01/20/2008, -1/+9Well, that's a good mentality. "Someone's already made it so we're not going to implement it ourselves." Even with the compiz kde patches, people still have had trouble getting them to work together. Saying they just don't want compiz because they didn't invent it is terrible. They want something that properly integrates with their desktop environment to the extent they want it to. How can you fault them for that? Forcing software on others is exactly what free software is _not_ about. Plus, KDE has a --replace feature, so who the hell cares? If KDE decided to use compiz by default, then no one without compositing could use the freaking environment. Not using compiz was smart move on their part.
- ha1f, on 01/20/2008, -0/+8I'm sure there's a window manager replacement command for KDE...
- ahvi, on 01/20/2008, -8/+15Gnome is feeling a lot older after watching that vid. It's looking more and more like I'll make the switch soon.
- renegadeafk, on 01/20/2008, -0/+7Jackass
- geminitojanus, on 01/20/2008, -1/+8Yes, but not everyone's adding "Bling" to their window managers. Everyone (and that's inclusive) knows how important compositing is to the future of desktop software, *not* including it would be a way to doom your product to obsolescence. Even the Enlightenment guys are adding compositing to E17's WM.
The problem is that all of these implementations are half baked, instead of working on a single, fully baked, delicious implementation. Compiz is a hugely good start, as it's already got several path contingencies for varying levels of hardware support, something that every other WM out there will end up duplicating, for better or worse. That's the problem we should be seeing here. If we had a half-way decent windowing system, this wouldn't be an issue as this would be implicit and not an issue that we argue about on a week-to-week basis.. but I'll leave that discussion for another day. - regeya, on 01/20/2008, -2/+9And hey, there's always a chance they may be compelled to switch at some point. But the software compositor is in the future. Right now, Compiz defaults to Metacity when compositing isn't available.
I guess I don't understand why they couldn't have helped the Compiz guys detect when KDE is running, and run KWin accordingly. Maybe the Compiz guys are GNOME zealots? I don't know, I don't follow such things. What I do like is the fact that the KDE compositing features work and are integrated with KDE, and that's awesome.
Looking forward to the 4.1 release! - google01103, on 01/20/2008, -10/+16And you wasted bandwidth to post this because?
- andycr512, on 01/20/2008, -0/+6Right, and so we're supposed to stop digging stories we enjoy because you're too lazy to disable the Linux/Unix section?
...?! - puelocesar, on 01/20/2008, -2/+7That's not it. Some programmers likes to develop using GTK, others prefer QT. I prefer programming in QT so, it's not my fault if GTK apps doesn't use the same visual appearance of QT.
- smek2, on 01/20/2008, -3/+8"Probably the only thing you won't get with NetBSD is the media hype. You'll need to get that somewhere else." -- from the NetBSD feature list. Love that.
- Philluminati, on 01/20/2008, -4/+9Basically all the features you enjoy like Compiz Screensaver, Compiz Expo and the Cube aren't going to be available in KDE until they have copied them in to KWin. When they have, it means that you choose Gnome or KDE not based on their own skills but based on if you want Compiz or if you want KWin. I love the fact Compiz ran on both. It's a shame they have to undermine the project.
- antitab, on 01/20/2008, -1/+5"Even the Enlightenment guys are adding compositing to E17's WM."
This is a result of pressure by gOS and Quinn Storm (who is now working on E17 for gOS). Raster has always stated that compositing cannot be done correctly with the current state of X11 and will not touch it until E18. It remains to be seen if an elegant solution will be devised by gOS or if we'll have to wait for DR17 to be out the door before we get the "Real Thing". - inactive, on 01/21/2008, -0/+4I'm also sure that tons of plugins will spring up for the compositing manager as well... Just give it time folks!
- starsky51, on 01/20/2008, -0/+4Beta (KOffice2) due out in the next couple of weeks. woo!
Konqi's looking a bit worse for wear, though - patpi, on 01/20/2008, -1/+4You didn't try KDE4 them :P
- daradib, on 01/20/2008, -0/+3Well the free driver for ATI cards is pretty good. Yes, very new ATI cards probably aren't good with the free driver. But I have an ATI X800 and it works marvelously with the free driver, at least better than the proprietary driver at everything except for a little bit less performance.
- starsky51, on 01/20/2008, -2/+5shamone!
- regeya, on 01/20/2008, -2/+5If distributors used styles like QtCurve by default, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Firefox fits in nicely in my KDE desktop.
- eclipse86, on 01/22/2008, -0/+3as a person who is intrested in linux, but doesn't use it that often could someone please explain what "compositing" is in Linux and how it fits in with window mangers.
- mahler, on 01/21/2008, -0/+3"It just feels like they've wasted their time since all of their "features" were already available in another free code base, and they could have spent that time and effort improving what already exists rather than recreating the wheel."
However, they implemented all this in a way that seems much more stable and could not have done this without full control over the architecture of their window manager.
If these two products are really that similar, eventually people will choose the better version. However, as long as KWin has an edge over Compiz, there will be people using it. - Philluminati, on 01/21/2008, -0/+2Choice is good don't get me wrong and it's not for me or anyone else to say how other people spend their free time. More point was that if KWin becomes a successful KDE replacement for Compiz then people's choice of Gnome or KDE will be based on their choice of KWin or Compiz. I was saying I like the fact Compiz runs exactly the same across both systems and if you need two window managers that's a price I'm willing to pay.
- ahvi, on 01/22/2008, -0/+2An extra plugin fork would be kick-ass and yeah, stability is the name of the game.
- stix213, on 01/24/2008, -0/+2I for one absolutely love Compiz and won't be using KDE until they get their effects up to par with it. Compiz isn't just cool, but the cube feature makes working on large numbers of windows very easy and improves productivity.
Not to mention that I love showing off the effects at work, and when the Windows and Mac users ask me where to download that because they have to have it.... I get to smile and say that their operating system isn't capable of it - you will just have to make the Linux switch.... Ohhh, and here is a Gutsy CD to get you started. - InorganicMatter, on 01/27/2008, -0/+2Compiz is terribly unstable and chock-full of useless features. I fully support the KDE team's choice to not use it, and have been enjoying KDE4's KWin quite thoroughly.
- Ademan, on 01/20/2008, -0/+2So what if desktop environments aren't switching to compiz? Think of a desktop environment as simply a "meta project" that is, a giant project that covers many sub projects, it's in the interest of the desktop environment to keep working on their own window manager because (among other reasons) it's frieking part of their project, and if something were to happen to compiz, say, somehow it became unmaintained, they would still have metacity. I don't think I explained myself well, but basically what i'm trying to say is that is exactly how things should be, distros should decide what's bundled with what, not desktop environments, desktop environments are really just development projects.
- mtekk, on 01/20/2008, -1/+3metacity has had compositing since 2.18, it just wasn't enabled by default.
- Ademan, on 01/20/2008, -2/+3Yes, the article said that, but I don't think there's more work involved in duplicating the window manager functionality than there is duplicating the compositioning functionality, after all, there are a few window managers (not that you'd want to use them) in under 100 lines of code.
On the other hand they made the point that window managing functionality is more important, and I wholeheartedly agree, and I agree with their decision simply based on the idea that duplicating the window managing functionality on compiz would introduce regressions where they would cause the most damage. - aigolg, on 05/26/2008, -0/+1wow gold,cheap wow gold,buy wow gold
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- Giga, on 01/21/2008, -0/+1"See Phonon." What now? What does phonon have to do with compiz? What are you trying to imply?
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http://19292.tokyo-no1.com/ - Giga, on 01/21/2008, -0/+0Personally I would have replaced compiz as well. While it did get the ball rolling, it isn't a particularly stable compositing manager. I think of it as an essential proof-of-concept rather than the be-all and end-all of pretty GUIs.
- geminitojanus, on 01/20/2008, -6/+6That's just a very easy way of saying "Not Invented Here."
"Proper Integration with KDE" could be done with a little bit of effort on KDE's part. But they're not interested in doing that work, because they didn't invent it, see Phonon. - smek2, on 01/20/2008, -4/+4Well, then better keep yours to yourself. I hade the Ubuntu spam on Digg and elsewhere.
- ha1f, on 01/20/2008, -4/+3Is it really so bad that they don't want to rely on another developer entity to maintain their window manager? "Not Invented Here", in this case also means "Not Maintained Here".
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