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95 Comments
- schestowitz, on 01/04/2008, -6/+16Great rebuttal--and just one among many that struck back at the FUD piece. Many other publications actually /praise/ open source for /improved/ innovation, but Lanier chose to stand out from the crowd for going the opposite direction (a total 180). How can sharing ideas stifle innovation? It's adverse to logic.
- Evildudetx, on 01/04/2008, -0/+8Pretty weak arguements - there isn't really any true innovation going on with close or open source from what I've seen. What everyone claims are innovations are just flashy crap that catches your eye, but in the end is truely worthless. And I don't care what type of fanboy you may be - this is true in Windows, Linux and with OSx.
- smacksaw, on 01/04/2008, -1/+9Well I guess I'm not a very good Linux fanboy, but I think there's room for both. I can think of a lot of examples of software that was gleaned from commercial software and vice-versa. We can't deny that Linux is making Vista/MacOS think about the features they add.
- trogdoor, on 01/04/2008, -0/+6Because almost nothing in IT, especially software, is completely original. Can you show that this is more of a trend in Open Source than in Proprietary software?
- Nossie, on 01/04/2008, -1/+7oh like time machine? wait thats rsync with a pretty front end...
who is copying who here? Spaces? its been in 'unix' long before it was ever in osx....
I'm not saying apple and microsoft dont innovate... but they do share a lot of everything...
I wish Windows could mount iso files without 3rd party tools....
Apple does excel in interfaces though.... both MS and linux (and just about everyone else) has been taking pages from the Apple book of design Since apple 'copied' xerox back in the day for the desktop as we know it today.
Its just called competition, and those with the most innovation stay in front... I say apple copied spaces but its a nice touch you can allocate applications to a particular space. - djekz, on 01/04/2008, -2/+7Best quote ever: "Why did the Linux community didn't come up with the iPhone?"
Did this guy proof read his own article?
Closed source breeds innovation because it often involves a motivator that open source doesn't. MONEY. Call it greed or whatever you like, but there is something to be said about being able to eat food because you are writing good code.
If I contribute to the open source community, and write up some kind of free, open source app, where is my incentive?
Ask yourself this, if making Solaris open source was a good idea, why did Sun have to resort to selling Windows on it's boxes? - inactive, on 01/04/2008, -1/+5Hi Kenneth, try saying something funny at an appropriate time and then we'll consider it.
- vermin, on 01/04/2008, -2/+6This article was so poorly written I couldn't get through it. Maybe open source is more innovative, maybe not. It might be better to find some english speaking writers to convince english readers.
- drachemorder, on 01/04/2008, -0/+4(Re: Open office being a ripoff)
Open Office is a word processor. How many ways are there, really, to do that? It processes words for me just fine. And I don't have to send money to Microsoft for it, which is fairly important to me because I really don't want to spend a king's ransom on word processors. That's called competition --- someone's offering a similar product at a much better price --- and is generally construed to be a good thing.
Games? I only wish there were more games for Linux, but there really aren't.
Emulators? Most of those run in Windows too, and in fact many of them are either Windows-only or primarily for Windows.
And if I recall correctly, ReactOS was never convicted of any wrongdoing, and is still an active project that uses clean-room reverse engineering, something that's completely legal to do. - fr34k5h0w, on 01/04/2008, -0/+4stupid fscking sessions.
@cornswalled
Consumers weren't ready for it in my opinion. How do you explain multiple desktops without them worrying that the application they had open on one desktop is still running? With Spaces (and Compiz Fusion, too) you can click a button and see all of your desktops, rearrange them, and rearrange the applications within them visually. - omababy, on 01/04/2008, -0/+4The future always lends from the past. always.
- superdjc, on 01/04/2008, -0/+4That's not really a fair comparison- Vim's job is to be like Vi, for people who like Vi, with a few extra bits. Vi was invented in 1723, so obviously is a bit out of date now.
You want something like Eclipse or KDevelop if you want something open source and a bit more modern. - srg13, on 01/04/2008, -1/+5I see you still haven't grown up...
- subxero37, on 01/04/2008, -0/+4I've been meaning to ask you, schestowitz - do you have some kind of room with multiple computers in it (say, five or six) all browsing digg.com so you can post on/digg as many articles as humanly possible? Just curious, because you seem to post on just about every article I read. Not that it's bad, but holy crap, I'm the laziest man on the face of the earth and I have nothing to do with most of my time, and I still don't post on Digg that much...
- mrsteveman1, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3I wouldn't call it a lack originality, i call it motivational problems with the "free " part of the whole equation. By free i mean the end user is free to give away the software even if it was originally sold to them by the developer. This makes it literally impossible to build a business model around selling software. You can pretend the for-pay model is dead, but it isn't and probably never will be because thats how capitalism works.
As for originality and innovation, it seems like the majority of development around Linux happens on the exciting stuff (beryl etc), while the rest takes a back seat because its not exciting and not being funded directly by money aside from some rare exceptions (samba etc). There are 1000 examples of this effect in Linux.
Open source (exactly what it sounds like) is the future because of its transparency, and because the people who can read the code and check it for problems, will do so. "Free software" (copyleft) on the other hand is not the future and will end up butting heads with the way the market works. - superdjc, on 01/04/2008, -1/+4FUD is not the same thing as "commonly held misconceptions". FUD stands for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, and is a tactic to persuade people not to switch to a competitors product by spreading fears about what might happen.
What you meant was "a lot of misinformation out there". - Nossie, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3damn sessions.... this is in response to my last comment
I can think of ... reiserfs?
I'd say ZFS but thats pretty much a sun thing (although reiserFS could be used with solaris)
vmware originally was linux only but now its cross platform that doesnt really count
everything
Linux seems to have a bit of an identity crisis due to its licensing ... because its mostly open source it can be recompiled to run on almost any operating system... Going the other way almost every application has to be 'cloned'
So maybe linux will never have a 'killer' application when it can be ported to other operating systems. I'm sure MS is happy with MYSQL running on windows... It's a shame they wont let it go both ways with samba. (I mean the theory of interoperability not ownership) - drachemorder, on 01/04/2008, -1/+4"Q: Which OS can run from a CD, so that you can make sure everything works out of the box before you commit it to your hard drive?
A: I'll give you this, but so can ANY OS if it's configured right. Case in point, Live XP."
That actually brings up one of the key benefits of open source. Microsoft is scared to death of people creating variations of Windows that might do stuff like run from a live CD or anything like that, because you just might do something evil like run Windows on two computers when you only bought one copy. Oh, the horror!
Of course, I don't think that's an issue of innovation or even open source, as much as it's a problem with Microsoft's overbearing, draconian ideas on licensing and copyright. It would be quite possible to distribute Windows is a manner that's still proprietary but does not attempt to unreasonably restrict how the software is used. It's just that Microsoft doesn't have enough competition to be motivated to do such consumer-friendly things. - janeuner, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3"OpenOffice is a blatant ripoff of Microsoft Office"
If there were infringment, it would be against a patent, not a copyright. Feel free to figure out which patent.
"Games most of which are rewrites of commercial packages created by commercial firms"
Which those commerical firms then sell or give away. And yes, the actual ripoffs got sued. Yay free markets! - drachemorder, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3"I don't see how those two "features" are worth using a system that has NO real software available for it."
You've hit something I consider important here. The only real reason I use Windows is because I'm compelled to do so by the lack of software for Linux, something that has nothing substantial to do with the quality of the operating system itself. Because I do not want to have to use Windows, I resent Microsoft all the more, above and beyond the reasons I originally didn't want to have to use it in the first place. - Nossie, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3I do agree with you entirely ..... and I do think things have been improving... I think its mostly legacy apps that are being widdled out slowly....
the alt click feature is an interesting one... has compiz patented it? .. oh wait :-| lol - flatfish, on 01/05/2008, -0/+3Several points to consider subxero37:
It's being done somewhat automatically because the same exact articles appear all over the Internet in other forums within minutes.of posting here. Roy says he doesn't spend too much time here?
Is he kidding?
It's not humanly possible to create, proofread, format (especially his very odd way of quoting and formatting) that number of artilces and NOT spend a huge amount of time doing it.
.
A proponent of freedom, open source and community contribution should be the last person trying to limit a person's right to freedom of speech. Roy is constantly claiming people are out to get him.
If Roy feels his comments are being modded down, maybe he should consider the quality, not the quantity, of his *work* here on digg and elsewhere. - harlowsmonkeys, on 01/05/2008, -0/+3With RSS, it is not hard to set up tools to scan a large number of blogs for keywords related to one's obsessions. With a little work, you can automate turning those into submissions to Digg, usenet, and other forums. A little more effort, and you could have a database of past factoids you've already formatted and misquoted, tagged with keywords, so that ones matching your new posts could be found and automatically included.
At one time, Schestowitz was an AOL employee, but it is not clear if he still is, or if someone else pays him now, but whoever pays for it, a paycheck would be more than enough incentive to spend a couple of weeks getting a nice automated reposting workflow set up. - Phocion55, on 01/04/2008, -1/+4"Isn't that what the 'Add/Remove Programs' is for"
If you're comparing Linux package managers to the 'Add/Remove' feature in Windows, you've clearly never come within 50 yards of a Linux box.
Buried as hopelessly pathetic. - shakin, on 01/04/2008, -0/+3Some of the GUIs aren't pretty, but that doesn't say much about innovation. Compare GUI feature and you'll find Linux and other *nix desktops are far ahead of MS and Apple. That's why Apple has copied the Spaces feature that *nix has had for more than a decade. Even simple things like holding the alt key lets you move a window by grabbing it anywhere instead of on the titlebar makes it a lot more pleasant to use the GUI. There are a lot of great ideas on the *nix desktop that will eventually find their way into MS and Apple operating systems. Unfortunately for MS and Apple by the time they copy those features *nix will have more new ones.
- trogdoor, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2You have actually been able to allocate applications to specific workspaces in *NIX for decades also ( with things like devilspie ) but it is admittedly nowhere close to as user friendly as Apples implementation of that feature in Spaces.
- djbon2112, on 01/04/2008, -6/+8Q: Which OS can run drivers and Programs written for another OS (without emulation that is)?
A: Well, considering I can't get pretty much any (read: none) of my Windows applications working without WINE being installed, and even then, the support is extremely shoddy, with some (very simple I might add) programs not working at all, I don't think that OS is Linux. And I've also never seen a Mac application run on Linux either. Can you show me Garage Band in Ubuntu?
Q: Which OS can run from a CD, so that you can make sure everything works out of the box before you commit it to your hard drive?
A: I'll give you this, but so can ANY OS if it's configured right. Case in point, Live XP.
Q: Which OS recognizes the most hardware right out of the box?
A: Every major one. Seriously. In fact, I have less issues recognizing my hardware under Windows than Linux. Sorry.
Q: Which OS allows you to install and un-install all the software with a click of a mouse from one central location on the Internet?
A: This is a feature I LOVE about Linux, and it IS innovative. No one has ever said that OSS doesn't give ANY innovation, but it's not some magical thing that rises above Closed Source like a saviour ascending to heaven. More innovation has been closed source than open source in the past 30 years. - Mistuke, on 01/04/2008, -4/+6No, i DON'T get your point, aside from the 1rst one, it any of the other ones can be done on any os. There are numerous window bootable cds. Even from microsoft themselves, available through msdn. And free ones online. Secondly i beleive windows has a much higher hardware support then linux. Atleast in my experience. Maybe your last was windows 98? And thirdly a package/software manager is just a piece of software. It has nothing to do with the operating system it runs on. Just because most linux distribution come with one doesn't make it a part of the os. it's just bundled with it. A package manager can easily be made for windows. I'm sorry, Digg me down, but most of your *points* are fud.
- Nossie, on 01/04/2008, -1/+3The only thing bad I have to say about Open source innovation is in the GUI.... I can name a lot more OSS application that are fugly than I can ones that match the 'finish' of their apple/MS counterparts...
Admittedly a CLI is far more powerful for control and features but you need a bit of both or atleast the option of both (and there is where I think OSX gets it right) Compiz has made astounding advances in the general feel of linux but so many apps themselves still feel like they have been clunked together using MOTIF from 1998.. - JQP123, on 01/04/2008, -1/+3"How can sharing ideas stifle innovation? It's adverse to logic."
Open Source is not about sharing *ideas*, it's about sharing code. *Ideas* get shared with or without Open Source. Where did Open Source get the *idea* to build a *nix clone?
So, how can sharing code stifle innovation? By diluting ownership and removing economic incentives. If sharing code is the way to innovation, wonder why Google doesn't share their search algorithm? Do you honestly believe it would be better for Google if they shared?
- z3r0c0O1, on 01/04/2008, -3/+5If there is full time development on the application then Open Source is fine, but it simply can't keep up when the application is one guy's side project that he does on his spare time. My case in point: Vim (even Emacs could work as well). Bram Moolenaar works for Google now and has done all but some patches and recommendation on Vim and just can't keep up with a Close Source development application like TextMate which is blowing it away right now. TextMate is getting more features in 3 years of development than Vim has in 16 years.
- vibrokatana, on 01/04/2008, -1/+3It's not really *about* linux. Open source has had a rather large impact in windows also, so much so that Microsoft dedicated a site to hosting projects and put out their own licenses to "help" projects.
- smacksaw, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2Exactly. Back in the day when I did presales/consulting I was a Microsoft-certified solution monkey, but that didn't mean that I didn't recommend other solutions. I had the ability through contractors to provide whatever solution was needed. I pushed UNIX and Linux like mad. There were very few examples where a homogeneous MS environment made sense. But when you sell a UNIX or Linux solution you are having to sell customisation and service with it. The C/BA doesn't always work in it's favour compared to the fixed cost of MS. And the person you hire to do a project in Linux might not be understood by the next person to come troubleshoot. A lot of these people DID see it as a side project. They would not complete contracts.
Of course, that's where you've seen Novell/Red Hat step up - or there's Solaris. Whatever. The question a decision-maker has to answer is the limitations and lack of updates for closed-source vs the customisation and administration of open-source. You don't want to be doing a lot of patching in a production environment and when you're starting from scratch it's easy to rationalise away the extra cost savings and personalisation for something that is easier to comprehend, even with it's limitations. - Kamujin, on 01/05/2008, -0/+2Oh, and to clear one thing up. This model works for many general purpose applications.
It does not work well for highly specialized applications. Both Open Source and Closed Source models will continue to be used. - Thedarklord187, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2go take a look at linux you dumb retard its made major strides in the last two years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC5uEe5OzNQ
This is a video on youtube of vista Vs. Linux ubantu with the beryl window manager - Kamujin, on 01/05/2008, -0/+2Its truely amazing how many of you have no clue WTF your talking about.
Its really ALOT simpler then you realize.
Company A,B, and C sponsor some open source project X. A ***** load of people get paid to write code, some help for free. When its done, everyone shares the benefit of project X. Company A, B, and C now sell services built on this software.
This is more efficient because instead of wasting the money to develop 3 versions of project X, they can share the costs. Project X is now standardized, so you can build on it without fear that some other company will radically and unilaterally modify it. Lastly, 2 version don't have to be thrown in the trash when a winner emerges.
And in the end, technology always requires people involvement, so company A, B and C sell their expertise in project X to people who need it. - Thedarklord187, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2the closed source people are just getting ansy in there pantsy's cause open source is beginging to take hold on the market and put a dent in there pretty little profits case and point there just scared that there going to loose thier power which of course they will :)
- shakin, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2So it's like xfsdump in a cron job?
- hamobu, on 01/04/2008, -1/+3"A: Well, considering I can't get pretty much any (read: none) of my Windows applications working without WINE being installed, and even then, the support is extremely shoddy, with some (very simple I might add) programs not working at all, I don't think that OS is Linux. And I've also never seen a Mac application run on Linux either. Can you show me Garage Band in Ubuntu?"
Wine is not an emulator, but a windows API for Linux. The indisputable fact is that you can get windows applications (including Explorer) to run on Linux using Vine and/or Crossover office. Your personal experience does not negate this fact. There might be some difficulties with some of the Microsoft programs, but that is not due to Open source model being inferior innovation-vise, but due to Microsoft trying to prevent people from using Microsoft apps on non-Microsoft OS. It is a similar story with file formats, communication protocols, standards, etc. The fact that you can run Microsoft drivers (ndiswrapper) and applications (vine) is the example of innovation that does not exist elsewhere. It is also pretty amazing.
"Q: Which OS can run from a CD, so that you can make sure everything works out of the box before you commit it to your hard drive?
A: I'll give you this, but so can ANY OS if it's configured right. Case in point, Live XP."
So windows XP copied and idea that exited in Linux world for years. My point exactly.
"Q: Which OS recognizes the most hardware right out of the box?
A: Every major one. Seriously. In fact, I have less issues recognizing my hardware under Windows than Linux. Sorry."
Really? My experience is 100% different. Every time I installed windows from a CD, I had to find and install all the drivers separately. Maybe you are referring to manufacturers CD. In that case recognizing of the hardware, but everything was pre-set for you in the factory. That is a totally different story.
"More innovation has been closed source than open source in the past 30 years."
Really? How can you justify such a claim? - hamobu, on 01/04/2008, -1/+3Cornswalled: [...SARCASM DELETED...] Open Source lets you select a whole list of [...FUD DELETED...] software to install from a single menu, instead of having to [...SARCASM DELETED...] go dot download.com or buy the software in the store.
hamobu: That is Correct! - known, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2Open source promotes Competition.
Closed source promotes Collusion. - janeuner, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2"Now Vista is ALMOST as pretty as Linux." -- Fixed.
- Phocion55, on 01/04/2008, -0/+2Interesting. Please show me to a package that infringes on a copyright.
Here, I'll even make the search easy for you: http://gentoo-portage.com/
Have fun! - harlowsmonkeys, on 01/05/2008, -0/+1You aren't quite right about Time Machine. That was how people expected to work. They thought Apple would add a snapshot facility to HFS+, and use that, but they surprised nearly everyone. The guts of Time Machine turned out to be just an ordinary incremental backup system, quite similar to their Backup program that comes with .Mac. Backup stored each incremental backup in a directory tree that matched the original tree, except that files that had not changed were left out, and directories that did not contain any changed files below them were left out.
TIme Machine essentially does that, except rather than omit files that have not changed, and the directories that contain them, they make hard links back to the previous backup. The only thing in there that you can't do on standard Unix is the directories. Apple allows Time Machine to make hard links to directories.
Aside from that, you can in fact use rsync to do the same thing Time Machine does. Assume /backup is the volume you are going to save your backups to.
1. Do a full backup:
mkdir /mnt/backup/full
rsync -x -av / /mnt/backup/full/."
echo /mnt/backup/full > /mnt/backup/latest.txt
2. To make a Time Machine-like backup:
NAME=`date +%Y%m%d-%H%M`
mkdir /mnt/backup/$NAME
rsync -x -av --link-dest=`cat /mnt/backup/latest.txt` / /mnt/backup/$NAME/.
echo /mnt/backup/$NAME > /mnt/backup/latest.txt
The difference between that and a Time Machine backup is that this will make all the directories in each backup, so it will use more space per backup than Time Machine. But files that won't change will not be copied, but if you go to /mnt/backup/20080102-1015, for example, that will be a fully populated tree showing your system as of that date/time, just like with Time Machine.
You also won't have the really cool interface for browsing the backups, of course. - inactive, on 01/04/2008, -0/+1In most cases it goes either way....Just look at web 2.0. Suddenly there are several JS scripts that do the same or similar. Then Apple docks that to the OS and soon too does Linux. Microsoft are still working on it but using a different outcome built on a similar concept and you might find the code is similar in many ways....Just like a car, everything is the same until you look closer. Then the detail is what defines it..
- inactive, on 01/04/2008, -0/+1Impressive. Now Linux is ALMOST as pretty as Vista. The only "advantage" Linux has in that video is that the wallpaper spins when using a cube to switch windows and the window flops around a bit when you move it. I don't see how those two "features" are worth using a system that has NO real software available for it.
Oh, wait, but the Linux fans are complaining about how Vista wastes resources by being so pretty. - hamobu, on 01/04/2008, -1/+2"Q: Which OS can run drivers and Programs written for another OS (without emulation that is)?
A: Linux, "
Exactly. Innovation point for Linux. I delited the rest of your irrelevant FUD. I hope you don't mind.
"Q: Which OS can run from a CD, so that you can make sure everything works out of the box before you commit it to your hard drive?
A: Windows PE"
So Microsoft is copying and idea that cam from the Open Source world? Anoter point for Open Source.
"Q: Which OS recognizes the most hardware right out of the box?
A: Windows. Linux users still find themselves spending hours on end trying to get five year old wireless cards working. If it doesn't work out of the box, Windows users just need to install a driver, while Linux users can spend days struggling to get something like a Wireless card working."
If windows users have to install the driver, than windows is not working out of the box, now is it dumbass?
"Q: Which OS allows you to install and un-install all the software with a click of a mouse from one central location on the Internet?
A: Isn't that what the "Add/Remove Programs" is for"
Go ahaid install and app from a central location with Add/Remove programs. - hamobu, on 01/04/2008, -0/+1JQP123: "Why does the defintiion of "competition" always include MS? "
A; Because MS is a monopoly in the field.
JQP123:"And when you say "X cannot compete without open source", how did you arrive at that conclusion? "
A: Because all these companies have publicly embraced Open source in one way or another and they believe that is what will make them money. And it is more then just a few companies. Pretty much all of the major non-microsoft companies have embraced Open Source in one form or another (and even microsoft has dabbled in it). If there is an alternative way to compete, than I do not know what it is and who is doing it.
JQP123:Apple, IBM and Sun all preceded the Open Source movement and were quite successful. Just because they choose to take advantage of free labor from Open Source (while it lasts) doesn't mean there is no alternative.
A; They were successfully until they were unsuccessful and they turned Open Source to try and save the ship from sinking.
In a closed source world software monopoly is inevitable. Development cost is high and marginal cost is low, and it is inevitable that one company with the deepest pockets will come to dominate. Open source is the only way to combat this. Start up cost is small with open source so now everybody can play.If you do not believe me, just look around you. In most software market segments Open source and Microsoft occupy top two spots. - myst77, on 01/04/2008, -0/+1please. dont. write. no. more. *****.
- rd1010, on 03/19/2009, -0/+1Buried for retarded logic.. you can't just rely on people writing free code for everything, the incentive of profit is necessary for producing some software packages. I have a small web development company so I pay people to write code for me, I'm not going to just release the code and the process of how its done for everyone to see for my projects.. if I did that than how would I ever be able to make a living doing this? I am sick of this stupid idealogy, open source is great and contributes greatly to projects but this is not a "battle", they both have their own places and it should stay that way forever as far as I am concerned.
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