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228 Comments
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -8/+142The patent owner waited until it became a de facto standards and then decided to sue. The winner could be Ogg Vorbis. Now more than ever before, the merits of royalty-free standard are realised. In fact, the licensing cost of MP3 kept small players out of the game, so what kind of free market is this?!?!
- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -6/+100"Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off."
Now that is just wrong. There are a number of MP3 players that play OGG/Vorbis RIGHT NOW. I own one. The Rockbox project is even enabling OGG playback on MP3 players that were never designed to play OGG. Including just about every iPod with more juice than the Shuffle. - ScornForSega, on 10/12/2007, -9/+96I'd love to see everyone settle on a single open source standard, but we all know that's not going to happen. Apple and MS are both going to say "our hardware/software, our way."
The reason mp3 was so successful was because it caught the big tech companies off guard. We'll see what happens, but they need to understand that the more they try to box us into a single system, the more we'll resist. Seriously, do I care if my music is in WMA, MP3, AAC or Ogg? Hell no, I just want it to play. If they don't want to pay licensing fees, then fine, whatever, I don't care. But they're never going to be able to move forward until they decide to start working with each other, instead of against one another. - joaob, on 10/12/2007, -3/+89jpeg failed? on what planet?
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -6/+81"open source hasn't taken over anything."
Except for the Internet. LAMP runs a huge percentage of the web servers, Linux runs a huge number of database servers and root servers, as the big names are migrating from the older, (more) poorly maintained Unicies like AIX and HPUX. And embedded machines, Linux is king for its ultra low licensing costs (buying a linux distribution support contract for a certain hardware configuration is much, much cheaper than buying a WinCE license, for example). Then there's other aspects of Open Source like Open Office and Open Document which are starting revolutions in office formats.
Open Source is in more places than you'd immediately notice. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+53"i have never had a file at 4GB, and i am sure most people have never had either. so the limits fine thanks"
You obviously have never talked to anyone dealing with databases. - zlintux, on 10/12/2007, -5/+53I heard this with jpeg, I heard this with FAT32. Low and behold, nothing really happened...
As it is with trademarks, I doubt that you can sit around in the dark holding your claim to it and waiting for more and more companies to use it just to jump out and yell "HA! I'M SUING YOU!". - Tenoq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+50@ daeken - wrong, I'm afraid. My little flash-based iRiver can play OGG files, without 'using too much power'. A simple firmware upgrade and I can swap between WMA and OGG support. All running of a single AA, for up to 40 hours playback. :P
- MotionAesthetic, on 10/12/2007, -11/+55Yeah, but on my player Vorbis reduces battery life by 50%
- resplence, on 10/12/2007, -1/+42"'The patent owner waited until it became a de facto standards and then decided to sue.'-- 'Or, the patent holder didn't know, and as soon as they found out, started to sue.'"
The guy who invented mp3 was in a coma for a decade? - turpenine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+35ipods use fat32, so do a lot of usb drives, sd cards, etc...
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31Most of us cannot hear the difference on our ***** little headphones. Not to mention I would rather fit 200-300 lossy songs on my 1GB shuffle rather than 1-2 dozen lossless songs, and would rather fit thousands of lossy songs and some videos on my 60GB iPod rather than hundreds of lossless songs.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+32By no means did JPEG 'fail.'
In terms of quality, basically, you get what you pay for.
You want a better image file (PNG), the size is going to be bigger.
That is why JPEG is dominant, people care less about quality than size.
I think FLAC is the embodiment of the perfect audio compression alternative, lossless but not too big. - jivatmanx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27I don't think that there needs to be much more evidence that software patent system needs to be revised.
Hell, these days you can invest into hedge funds that go around buying software patents and using them to sue people. - PixelVision, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27IceZZ, you're getting dugg down because you're wrong, not because of zealots.
- underthelinux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24"And I get dugg down. Who really formats a new computer with FAT32? I stopped 5 years ago when I installed XP."
@ metalhead
Until just recently (less than a month due to ntfs-3g), FAT32 was the easiest fs that could be written and read from osx, linux and windows. So, i do have a fat32 partition. Just cause you don't, doesn't mean that other people don't. - karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -14/+36Free Lossless Audio Codec (flac) FTW!
- Eric4, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23>it's actually a fantastic codec, but i think sony is pretty much the only one who even touches it
What are you talking about? FLAC is an open source codec and is gaining support in many different programs and hardware setups. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Nah.
Too little too late for him.
MP3 is fine, it's not going anywhere anytime soon regardless of what any lawsuit says. It's already set in stone on so many players that no one can really do anything about it. - Jarasmen, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20Yeah, I'm converting my whole mp3 collection into ogg as we speak because there's a lawsuit. No, really.
Okay, not really. - MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Yes. FLAC but also Ogg. I can't have everything in loseless :)
- dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21@ IceZZ
Well then I guess you never noticed how Internet Explorer copied Netscape Navigator (which I suppose really copied Mosaic ), MS Office copied Corel's WordPerfect and Windows copied Xerox's Alto GUI created at PARC. - undeuxtroiskid, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26Ogg Vorbis has not proven they are patent free. The developers say that they are patent free but patent holders can at any time (like the recent case against mp3) show up and claim that Vorbis is infringing. Until Vorbis gets a professional, legal opinion claiming that they are patent-free, I believe that Ogg Vorbis will not usurp mp3.
- Induane, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23QUOTE
---------------------------
Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off.
--------------------------
Considering its used in many kids toys because of its free stature it shouldn't be THAT hard to decode in hardware. It has a lot of advantages besides being a license free medium. Besides, if cheap kids toys can decode the audio streams it shouldn't be THAT hard. - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17"As it is with trademarks, I doubt that you can sit around in the dark holding your claim to it and waiting for more and more companies to use it just to jump out and yell "HA! I'M SUING YOU!"."
Uh, Patents are not Trademarks; Patents have expiration dates, and don't have the restriction of "you don't use it you lose it". Once you've applied for and received a patent, you OWN the concept contained within the patent for roughly 20 years, then it's given back to the public domain. You can sit on a patent for 16 years and right before it goes out of circulation, leap out and sue everyone using it for multimillion dollar sums, and as long as your patent is airtight, you will win damages, period. This is why Lucent won: Microsoft had no case, they violated the patents quite clearly.
The JPEG patent you're talking about is extremely doubted to be a valid patent (because of prior art), and the FAT32 patent is likely invalid for being too obvious a concept to patent (but of course, Microsoft will retain the patent until challenged). - JimV, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18I think that even the word "MP3" is too well known to die any time soon.
I wouldn't be surprised if the ruling against MS got overturned or at least reduced anyway. - jaknet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20@350zed "The fact is that FAT32 is fine, since no single media file NEEDS to be over 4GB in size."
Not true as when backing up and using .ISO I normally have a 4.5 or 4.7 GB single file. Just recently I have had a couple of 5 and 6.5 GB .ISO files. All of which would be impossible to use under FAT32
So yes there is a "need" for bigger than 4GB
Please check you facts first. Cheers - Endemoniada, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Why shouldn't it? Bitrate is nothing but the amount of data that gets processed each second, there's no reason next gen codecs couldn't take that bitrate and, by using more clever algorithms, make it sound better. That's the whole point of evolving codecs, making them sound better at the same bitrate (and thus also making them sound just as good at lower bitrate/filesize)
And OGG does sound better than MP3 at the same bitrate. OGG has deeper, cleaner bass and less distortion. I've done quite alot of listening to verify this for myself. - vandalet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18ya, doesn't 95% of all digital cameras use it as the default?
- mason.parker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"I think it was just a matter of time until the open source will take over this area too"
What the hell is he talking about? Good story, stupid desc. - nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18>"open source hasn't taken over anything."
Except....web servers, sendmail(the email you got today and every day since you have been on the internet has been transmitted by sendmail), bind (every time you ask for a web address the IP is provided by bind)....and about 100 other ways you have NO CLUE about because your limited computer world only includes your little pee cee. - dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17I've seen sound tests where WMA lost to everything including MP3 at the same bitrate.
- MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15What? 7z is far way better then any other competing formats like ZIP, CAB, RAR or ACE.. Get a clue.
- nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Exactly... my thousands of MP3s, computers equipped with sound cards and mp3-decoding routines, and my iPods are not going anywhere. No one can kill mp3 now it has a life of its own.
- geekee, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19"I think it was just a matter of time until the open source will take over this area too."
Are you on crack? Seriously, lay off the drugs. - bradleyland, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11"Yes. FLAC but also Ogg. I can't have everything in loseless :)"
FLAC is a codec, OGG is a container. They're not the same, and actually, you'd have both, because FLAC can be used with OGG, as can Vorbis. - eatrains, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13AAC is not proprietary. FairPlay is, and is only present on songs purchased from the iTunes Store. There is a distinction. AAC is part of MPEG-4 and was developed by Dolby and Fraunhofer, among others, and requires no licenses or payments to stream or distribute it. Don't subscribe to anti-Apple propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding - Savut, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14@metalhead3767
You get dugg down because your comment make no sense.
1. You reply to someone who didn't said he use FAT32, he said there is a patent to FAT32.
2. The thread is about FAT32, nothing about formatting a computer. FAT32 is not something you see only when you format a computer.
3. Almost all USB drives and iPod are formatted as FAT32, so it's not true nobody use FAT32.
4. FAT32 allow to be read/write between many OS, so it's used by many system.
That's why you get down. :P - gauthierm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10JPEG and PNG are two different formats for two different purposes. The Joint Photographic Experts Group format is for Photographs. The Portable Network Graphics format is for Graphics. Neither one is "beating" the other.
- MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Are you blind? The Internet is run on Open Source. Just look at the lead Apache (and LAMP servers in general) have of IIS. Not to mention all the old BSD servers out there.
And then you can look at the embeded OS market. Specifically the TiVo, and many HDTVs, DVD players, Cellphones, and more that run Linux.
Oh, and the NFL wire cam :-P - jshadow, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Like it or not, in order for OGG Vorbis to take off with MS, Apple and the like it would need support for DRM as well.
- nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Ummm..ever hear of Xvid?? Its the most popular video format, and its GPL open source. Just because YOU dont have a clue does not make it true.
- forteller, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Sorry for comment abuse, but here is a list of portable media players that supports Ogg Vorbis: http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/PortablePlayers
And because of this story I submitted it to Digg. If you'd like to digg it you can find it here: http://digg.com/hardware/Bye_bye_MP3_Hello_Ogg_Vorbis
If you don't want to digg it, just use my first URL to go directly to the list. And please don't digg me down, I'm only trying to help. :) - weister42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9There are people who don't even know what mp3 stands for and yet they want to pull the plug already? There are millions of mp3 players(not to mention cellphones) in the US alone so if they decide to end it now the outcome would be massive public backlash.
- brundlefly76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Everyone seems to think that just because they sued Microsoft the format will 'go away' - this is illogical as the patent holder has no long-term benefit from that case.
If an MP3 license holder has already violated the patent, dumping it now in no way protects them from litigation.
Plus, if you sell digital audio products and do not support MP3 you have just surrendered your market (see Sony when they were ATRAC-only).
So what will happen is that A/L will seek affordable settlements on a case-by-case basis which validates the license-holder permanently.
New MP3 license-seekers will simply consult both Fraunhofer AND A/L for future MP3 licenses.
This happens *all the time* in the patent world.
Of course, Microsoft may very well win in appeal - as the IDC analyst correctly pointed out, it may very well be the case that A/L should be suing Fraunhofer, but is trying to hide that fact.
One thing is for sure, is that second-generation re-encoding of our existing billions of MP3s into Ogg or anything else will not be an appealing solution for anyone. - MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14I guess your the only one on the planet :)
- gk128, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9The mainstream market, and general pirates won't be ditching MP3 anytime soon.
More players need to support open source formats though fo those of us who do want something different. - DoTheFandango, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The only reason I use MP3 is because it is so universal. If I were to give an .mp3 to my grandma, she can play it automatically on any computer with little to no work. You give someone an .ogg file, they will have to do more work to provide themselves with the same gratification. Look at OiNK, you don't see many Ogg Vorbis encoded albums, and for good reason.
- MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12PNG is superior but JPG rules today. Sadly.
- ki85squared, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It all depends on the compression rate. I rip CDs at 192 kb/sec, and the quality difference is negligible. :) I really don't see the problem with mp3...
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