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Bye bye MP3?

wired.com — Is this the end of out loved format that changed the world (with the help of Napster)? I think it was just a matter of time until the open source will take over this area too.

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  • schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -8/+142The patent owner waited until it became a de facto standards and then decided to sue. The winner could be Ogg Vorbis. Now more than ever before, the merits of royalty-free standard are realised. In fact, the licensing cost of MP3 kept small players out of the game, so what kind of free market is this?!?!
    • ScornForSega, on 10/12/2007, -9/+96I'd love to see everyone settle on a single open source standard, but we all know that's not going to happen. Apple and MS are both going to say "our hardware/software, our way."

      The reason mp3 was so successful was because it caught the big tech companies off guard. We'll see what happens, but they need to understand that the more they try to box us into a single system, the more we'll resist. Seriously, do I care if my music is in WMA, MP3, AAC or Ogg? Hell no, I just want it to play. If they don't want to pay licensing fees, then fine, whatever, I don't care. But they're never going to be able to move forward until they decide to start working with each other, instead of against one another.
    • Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -60/+14Funny my mp3's play fine..

      The Winning format is ACC not WMA and not Ogg
    • daeken, on 10/12/2007, -53/+36Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off.
    • jivatmanx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27I don't think that there needs to be much more evidence that software patent system needs to be revised.

      Hell, these days you can invest into hedge funds that go around buying software patents and using them to sue people.
    • turpenine, on 10/12/2007, -37/+22open source hasn't taken over anything.
    • geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -15/+19"The patent owner waited until it became a de facto standards and then decided to sue."

      Or, the patent holder didn't know, and as soon as they found out, started to sue. I would trust that this is the case, especially as Lucent has been pursuing many other patent cases with similar patents, all clustered around the same time. Sometimes patent trolling is deliberate, sometimes not, but until patent law changes, it's always going to be legal.

      "The winner could be Ogg Vorbis."

      As much as we'd love it to be, there's not a chance. Nobody supports Vorbis, there's virtually no media already encoded that way, and there's no will to recode existing media to that format. Furthermore, there is significant industry uproar to move to the (even more patent encumbered) superior format, AAC, which will be the real winner in this case.

      "Now more than ever before, the merits of royalty-free standard are realised. In fact, the licensing cost of MP3 kept small players out of the game, so what kind of free market is this?!?!"

      Uh what are you talking about, MP3 licenses are dirt cheap, so cheap you can buy a chip capable of decoding MP3 (in hardware) for a few bucks, as evidenced by the recent insurgence of ultra cheap MP3 players [For note: Microsoft licensed MP3 from Fraunhofer for a ridiculously pathetic sum of $16 Million]. The problem is, they might not continue to be cheap after Lucent gets through with these companies, and that's the big fear right now. However, I believe that like Eolas, Lucent will be quite satisfied with the Microsoft payout, and likely will not attack other players.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -6/+100"Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off."

      Now that is just wrong. There are a number of MP3 players that play OGG/Vorbis RIGHT NOW. I own one. The Rockbox project is even enabling OGG playback on MP3 players that were never designed to play OGG. Including just about every iPod with more juice than the Shuffle.
    • jshadow, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Like it or not, in order for OGG Vorbis to take off with MS, Apple and the like it would need support for DRM as well.
    • MotionAesthetic, on 10/12/2007, -11/+55Yeah, but on my player Vorbis reduces battery life by 50%
    • Induane, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23QUOTE
      ---------------------------
      Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off.
      --------------------------
      Considering its used in many kids toys because of its free stature it shouldn't be THAT hard to decode in hardware. It has a lot of advantages besides being a license free medium. Besides, if cheap kids toys can decode the audio streams it shouldn't be THAT hard.
    • rabidstrikes, on 10/12/2007, -18/+18Folks, the next time you rip and upload your CD collection, do the community a favor and make that vorbis compressed.
    • undeuxtroiskid, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26Ogg Vorbis has not proven they are patent free. The developers say that they are patent free but patent holders can at any time (like the recent case against mp3) show up and claim that Vorbis is infringing. Until Vorbis gets a professional, legal opinion claiming that they are patent-free, I believe that Ogg Vorbis will not usurp mp3.
    • geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+81"open source hasn't taken over anything."

      Except for the Internet. LAMP runs a huge percentage of the web servers, Linux runs a huge number of database servers and root servers, as the big names are migrating from the older, (more) poorly maintained Unicies like AIX and HPUX. And embedded machines, Linux is king for its ultra low licensing costs (buying a linux distribution support contract for a certain hardware configuration is much, much cheaper than buying a WinCE license, for example). Then there's other aspects of Open Source like Open Office and Open Document which are starting revolutions in office formats.

      Open Source is in more places than you'd immediately notice.
    • resplence, on 10/12/2007, -1/+42"'The patent owner waited until it became a de facto standards and then decided to sue.'-- 'Or, the patent holder didn't know, and as soon as they found out, started to sue.'"

      The guy who invented mp3 was in a coma for a decade?
    • Tenoq, on 10/12/2007, -2/+50@ daeken - wrong, I'm afraid. My little flash-based iRiver can play OGG files, without 'using too much power'. A simple firmware upgrade and I can swap between WMA and OGG support. All running of a single AA, for up to 40 hours playback. :P
    • IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -61/+19Open source has yet to "take over" any area. Even Firefox is not a majority share of the browser market, despite the popularity. You're also confusing "Free market" and "free software". F/OSS can never be the dominant force because it lives on the backs of commercial companies, it will hang out at around 30% of the market share in the best of situations. Linux has been around for ages now, and it shows no signs of winning the market.

      Ever noticed how KDE is a copy of the Windows shell? OpenOffice is a copy of Microsoft Office? Firefox looks nearly identical to IE (and vice versa)?

      Go ahead and digg me down, like all the zealots will. The reality stands regardless.

    • JimV, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18I think that even the word "MP3" is too well known to die any time soon.

      I wouldn't be surprised if the ruling against MS got overturned or at least reduced anyway.
    • brundlefly76, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Everyone seems to think that just because they sued Microsoft the format will 'go away' - this is illogical as the patent holder has no long-term benefit from that case.

      If an MP3 license holder has already violated the patent, dumping it now in no way protects them from litigation.
      Plus, if you sell digital audio products and do not support MP3 you have just surrendered your market (see Sony when they were ATRAC-only).

      So what will happen is that A/L will seek affordable settlements on a case-by-case basis which validates the license-holder permanently.
      New MP3 license-seekers will simply consult both Fraunhofer AND A/L for future MP3 licenses.

      This happens *all the time* in the patent world.

      Of course, Microsoft may very well win in appeal - as the IDC analyst correctly pointed out, it may very well be the case that A/L should be suing Fraunhofer, but is trying to hide that fact.

      One thing is for sure, is that second-generation re-encoding of our existing billions of MP3s into Ogg or anything else will not be an appealing solution for anyone.
    • PixelVision, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27IceZZ, you're getting dugg down because you're wrong, not because of zealots.
    • dhughes, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21@ IceZZ

      Well then I guess you never noticed how Internet Explorer copied Netscape Navigator (which I suppose really copied Mosaic ), MS Office copied Corel's WordPerfect and Windows copied Xerox's Alto GUI created at PARC.
    • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18>"open source hasn't taken over anything."

      Except....web servers, sendmail(the email you got today and every day since you have been on the internet has been transmitted by sendmail), bind (every time you ask for a web address the IP is provided by bind)....and about 100 other ways you have NO CLUE about because your limited computer world only includes your little pee cee.

    • diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4I feel that patents should be like trademarks in that you must be active in enforcing it. If, you ignore international use of your patent, you have offered it to the public domain. It is like MS-FAT, only when a real competitor like Linux uses it do they suggest lawsuits.

      With MP3, I am sure that they were clueless that their patents were being infringed when every music player had MP3 on the packaging.
    • 4NDr01D, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3no one's mobile phone supports ogg vorbis

      AAC+ will be the defacto audio standard
    • caleb4mj, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I have no problems playing ogg files on my pda or cell phone and it doesn't use any more power than playing mp3s or realaudio files. Vorbis sounds better at lower bitrate than mp3 and as a result can use less space to store the same quality sound. But if you must have the best possible quality, why not just use FLAC?

      I guess the point is, choose the best tech for your needs, but the problems here are clearly these disruptive software patents. We must put an end to software patents in the US before they put an end to some of our businesses and consumer products. I don't care if Creative can make a cheap mp3 USB stick to compete with Apple. But I do care that I can't play my ogg files on it because someone is biased against me and too selfish to share the hardware technology, so I can fix their broken software.

      If we cooperated a bit we'd all have what we want. But as long as we don't, buyer beware.
    • lump1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7"Ogg (Vorbis) was stillborn. It's simply too expensive to decode in hardware to make it practical on anything but PCs and the rare device that has the power to pull it off."

      Hmm, well tell that to my primitive old iAudio player, which happily plays 30 hours of Ogg Vorbis music on a single charge of a AA battery. There's no fancy processor inside. Ogg is not more expensive to decode than MP3 if I'm to judge by battery life.
    • JimXugle, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1my personal favorite is a bzipped BIN/CUE file from a CD. All the quality of A CD, but without the fear of scratching it. Not good for shuffle playing though. *shrug*
    • forteller, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Sorry for comment abuse, but here is a list of portable media players that supports Ogg Vorbis: http://wiki.xiph.org/index.php/PortablePlayers

      And because of this story I submitted it to Digg. If you'd like to digg it you can find it here: http://digg.com/hardware/Bye_bye_MP3_Hello_Ogg_Vorbis
      If you don't want to digg it, just use my first URL to go directly to the list. And please don't digg me down, I'm only trying to help. :)
    • ultrahombre, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yah but try convincing the kids to say Ogg Vorbis.
    • IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3@dhughes

      Except that you completely missed the f*cking point. Everything is derivative in some way, all software is some sort of copy. Of course Xerox pioneered the first desktop GUI. The difference is that FOSS is stuck just behind the commercial companies all the time because corporate America has something that FOSS doesn't: RESEARCH MONEY. And Rearch dollars come from.... drum roll, PRODUCT SALES.

      I love all these people quoting how the internet is run on Linux and how this demonstrates that everything should be free. Sendmail was based on a government app, and was funded at a university. Just because it was later Open sourced, does NOT mean sendmail is proof of FOSS taking over.

      For that matter, a big portion of Firefox was paid for by AOL ($2M), but again, the FOSS community won't be too happy to admit that.

      How about Apache? Apache was originally spawned by the NCSA using government money. Gee.

      FOSS is a lemon. There is no pure FOSS app that is highly successful. Once the apps are spawned from the commercial bodies that created them, they stagnate.

    • mousky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well, there is some question about the applicability of the Alcatel-Lucent patents in this case. It seems that they are not used in the Fraunhofer mp3 suite, which Microsoft licensed. So, exactly how Microsoft violated the patents is unclear. My gut tells me that there is a hush-hush gentlemen's agreement between Alcatel-Lucent and Fraunhofer - after all it seems that you have to license the mp3 codec from both companies.
    • syco123, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1"open source hasn't taken over anything."

      I've not seen a paid for program that is even close to Stellarium. I'm no star junkie but wow this program is cool.
    • DarkStalker, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3> Ever noticed how KDE is a copy of the Windows shell?

      Uh... no? Where do you get a retarded notion like that from? Have you even USED KDE and not just looked at screenshots from time to time? I'd love for you to tell me where Windows hides it's version of kioslaves. Oh, that's right, it doesn't have that stuff.

      Simply having an X at the corner of a window and a button on a taskbar for accessing your programs does not make it even remotely a copy of Windows. Gnome has the same thing. In fact, several other programs had them long before Windows did.
    • IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1@darkstalker

      Where did I get the idea KDE is like Windows? Are you KIDDING?

      From the KDE website, look and learn fool:
      http://www.kde.org/screenshots/images/3.3/snapshot11.png

      And for your ridiculous claim that Windows copied GNOME, GNOME didn't EXIST until 1997 and in the current form until later than that, long after Windows had shipped WIn95 and beyond.

      Get a clue.
    • Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"open source hasn't taken over anything."

      ... Naww, just the server market...
    • DarkStalker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Have you even USED KDE and not just looked at screenshots from time to time?"

      Thanks, you just answered that question perfectly, you moron.
  • zlintux, on 10/12/2007, -5/+53I heard this with jpeg, I heard this with FAT32. Low and behold, nothing really happened...
    As it is with trademarks, I doubt that you can sit around in the dark holding your claim to it and waiting for more and more companies to use it just to jump out and yell "HA! I'M SUING YOU!".
    • metalhead3767, on 10/12/2007, -64/+7You still use FAT32? You must love that 4gb file size limit.
    • turpenine, on 10/12/2007, -2/+35ipods use fat32, so do a lot of usb drives, sd cards, etc...
    • JosephGoss, on 10/12/2007, -46/+3@metalhead3767

      i have never had a file at 4GB, and i am sure most people have never had either. so the limits fine thanks
    • geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17"As it is with trademarks, I doubt that you can sit around in the dark holding your claim to it and waiting for more and more companies to use it just to jump out and yell "HA! I'M SUING YOU!"."

      Uh, Patents are not Trademarks; Patents have expiration dates, and don't have the restriction of "you don't use it you lose it". Once you've applied for and received a patent, you OWN the concept contained within the patent for roughly 20 years, then it's given back to the public domain. You can sit on a patent for 16 years and right before it goes out of circulation, leap out and sue everyone using it for multimillion dollar sums, and as long as your patent is airtight, you will win damages, period. This is why Lucent won: Microsoft had no case, they violated the patents quite clearly.

      The JPEG patent you're talking about is extremely doubted to be a valid patent (because of prior art), and the FAT32 patent is likely invalid for being too obvious a concept to patent (but of course, Microsoft will retain the patent until challenged).
    • geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+53"i have never had a file at 4GB, and i am sure most people have never had either. so the limits fine thanks"

      You obviously have never talked to anyone dealing with databases.
    • Speed, on 10/12/2007, -16/+11josephgoss, you've never watched an HD show on your computer? Never watched a DVD on your computer? Those are both well over 4GB...
    • metalhead3767, on 10/12/2007, -26/+12And I get dugg down. Who really formats a new computer with FAT32? I stopped 5 years ago when I installed XP.
    • underthelinux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24"And I get dugg down. Who really formats a new computer with FAT32? I stopped 5 years ago when I installed XP."
      @ metalhead
      Until just recently (less than a month due to ntfs-3g), FAT32 was the easiest fs that could be written and read from osx, linux and windows. So, i do have a fat32 partition. Just cause you don't, doesn't mean that other people don't.
    • 350Zed, on 10/12/2007, -15/+9@speed

      DVDs are not over 4GB. DVDs contain many files about 1GB each.

      @geminitojanus

      I fail to see how a 4GB database is relevant to an MP3 discussion.

      The fact is that FAT32 is fine, since no single media file NEEDS to be over 4GB in size.

      Music players, in particular, are about the efficient storage and decompression of small files.
    • Savut, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14@metalhead3767

      You get dugg down because your comment make no sense.

      1. You reply to someone who didn't said he use FAT32, he said there is a patent to FAT32.
      2. The thread is about FAT32, nothing about formatting a computer. FAT32 is not something you see only when you format a computer.
      3. Almost all USB drives and iPod are formatted as FAT32, so it's not true nobody use FAT32.
      4. FAT32 allow to be read/write between many OS, so it's used by many system.

      That's why you get down. :P
    • jaknet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20@350zed "The fact is that FAT32 is fine, since no single media file NEEDS to be over 4GB in size."

      Not true as when backing up and using .ISO I normally have a 4.5 or 4.7 GB single file. Just recently I have had a couple of 5 and 6.5 GB .ISO files. All of which would be impossible to use under FAT32

      So yes there is a "need" for bigger than 4GB

      Please check you facts first. Cheers
    • lolgamoff, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@350zed, a dvd image is well over 4GB. anyone who has copied a DVD (not just the file containing audio and video of the main title) has dealt with this.
    • Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"ipods use fat32"

      It uses HFS+ on Mac OSX...
  • badbox, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22Nah.

    Too little too late for him.

    MP3 is fine, it's not going anywhere anytime soon regardless of what any lawsuit says. It's already set in stone on so many players that no one can really do anything about it.
    • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Exactly... my thousands of MP3s, computers equipped with sound cards and mp3-decoding routines, and my iPods are not going anywhere. No one can kill mp3 now it has a life of its own.
    • crossmr, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Its not impossible to cause a shift if the industry gets on board.
      Its a matter of all new operating systems/software, etc supporting/pushing a new standard. Its not exactly something that would happen over night. Most people will use whatever someone tells them too. If all the new fancy programs don't support mp3 and someone quietly releases an mp3 -> whatever converter that can easily transfer your collection over, you could see that vast majority of people make the switch. Unfortunately what will happen is that everyone who wants to it will bicker and fight over who's standard is better and you probably won't see anything happen.

  • realn0whereman, on 10/12/2007, -54/+5jpeg failed due to quality. i stick to png
    • joaob, on 10/12/2007, -3/+89jpeg failed? on what planet?
    • chrisrs, on 10/12/2007, -3/+32By no means did JPEG 'fail.'
      In terms of quality, basically, you get what you pay for.
      You want a better image file (PNG), the size is going to be bigger.
      That is why JPEG is dominant, people care less about quality than size.

      I think FLAC is the embodiment of the perfect audio compression alternative, lossless but not too big.
    • vandalet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18ya, doesn't 95% of all digital cameras use it as the default?
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12PNG is superior but JPG rules today. Sadly.
    • cdmarcus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4MrViklund, it's all about the application. PNG does almost nothing to photographic images, but it's great for diagrams and things like that. JPEG compresses photographs without much visible deterioration, and is very efficient with space. However, a JPEG of a diagram will look like crap and may even be bigger than a PNG of the same thing. Unfortunately, we're not at the point where it makes sense to use PNG for photographs in web pages, because the bandwidth required to make it feasible is just not there at an affordable price for everybody yet.
    • gauthierm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10JPEG and PNG are two different formats for two different purposes. The Joint Photographic Experts Group format is for Photographs. The Portable Network Graphics format is for Graphics. Neither one is "beating" the other.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I love that on the Wikipedia article for JPEG2K they make a comparison between uncompressed, JPEG and JPEG2K images using PNG. Whoever posted it has a great sense of irony.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_2000

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:JPEG_JFIF_and_2000_Comparison.png
  • metalhead3767, on 10/12/2007, -19/+3How is this news? Almost every other lossy format has better quality.
    • delusional, on 10/12/2007, -15/+1I dont know where you, or the article's author, are coming from there.

      MP3 does _not_ inherently have less 'fidelity'/quality for the same bitrate than other 'next generational' codecs. The concept is laughable. The MP3 standard may be old but the latest build of LAME isnt.

    • Endemoniada, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17Why shouldn't it? Bitrate is nothing but the amount of data that gets processed each second, there's no reason next gen codecs couldn't take that bitrate and, by using more clever algorithms, make it sound better. That's the whole point of evolving codecs, making them sound better at the same bitrate (and thus also making them sound just as good at lower bitrate/filesize)

      And OGG does sound better than MP3 at the same bitrate. OGG has deeper, cleaner bass and less distortion. I've done quite alot of listening to verify this for myself.
  • chrisrs, on 10/12/2007, -17/+9Here's hoping more people discover the joys of lossless music.
    • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31Most of us cannot hear the difference on our ***** little headphones. Not to mention I would rather fit 200-300 lossy songs on my 1GB shuffle rather than 1-2 dozen lossless songs, and would rather fit thousands of lossy songs and some videos on my 60GB iPod rather than hundreds of lossless songs.
    • chrisrs, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1I'm not talking about portable music alone, here.
      In this day and age of broadband connections and hard drives in the range of hundreds of gigabytes, there really is no longer an excuse for not going to lossless.
      You can always make lossy files for portable players, as a matter of fact I have a program that has it integrated into the right-click function.
    • kalos, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Unless you're one of the severe audiophiles who still obsesses over the "cleanness of vinyl" then lossy files, encoded at an appropriate level to the type of material (less for spoken word versus higher for symphonies), will suit more than enough people. Using 100GB I've managed to fit just over 10,000 files using a fairly standard encoding rate of 192, with 64 for audio books and lectures.

      Just because I have large hard drives doesn't mean I want to fill them with less stuff when I can easily fit at least five times that and no one will be able to discern the difference in quality.
    • scruffeh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Why would you need an excuse? A preference or opinion would do just fine. I do like FLAC but V0 LAME mp3s have a lot going for them. Besides loads of people really don't care about sound quality FLAC or other lossless is only going to make a difference to people who want to properly archive their music and audiophiles with decent kit who can tell the difference. Average Joe isn't going to transcode their lossless files for their iPods. People can't be bothered, they will use whatever is popular and easy. That's where the money is for big companies, not the technically minded
    • gauthierm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I listened to all my music on an iPod for over a year until it was stolen. Then I started listening to my Discman again and was shocked at how much better it sounded. Now I'm one of those losers who stores all my music in FLAC.
    • UNL1M1T3D, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The only album I have thought of getting in loss less is Dark Side of the Moon. Now that would be some good listening.
    • nofxjunkee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1My music lives on my laptop, which only has a 100GB disk in it. I like to be able to play music on my AirPort Express anywhere in my house, so my music stays on the laptop and not one of my external disks. I already have space issues with hundreds of gigs of TV shows, movies (both mp4 & video_ts), and music videos. I have some bigger disks on the way though, so maybe I'll rip my CDs to ALAC (I'd rather use FLAC but I use iTunes with my AirPort Express, proprietary crap sucks) and see if I can hear a difference.

      I'm not against lossless, and maybe I'll be able to hear a difference on my stereo.
    • tyman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I never really cared about the difference between mp3 and uncompressed music until I started to make my own music. You really notice the difference between 24-bit/96khz to 192kbps VBR.
  • mason.parker, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14"I think it was just a matter of time until the open source will take over this area too"

    What the hell is he talking about? Good story, stupid desc.
  • gk128, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9The mainstream market, and general pirates won't be ditching MP3 anytime soon.

    More players need to support open source formats though fo those of us who do want something different.
    • Copperhe4d, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5theres still hope that release groups will rip they're stuff in Ogg because they will see that it is in better quality.
      they allready rip it in VBR MP3 so...
  • karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -14/+36Free Lossless Audio Codec (flac) FTW!
    • ImTheDarkcyde, on 10/12/2007, -15/+2it's actually a fantastic codec, but i think sony is pretty much the only one who even touches it
    • Eric4, on 10/12/2007, -2/+23>it's actually a fantastic codec, but i think sony is pretty much the only one who even touches it

      What are you talking about? FLAC is an open source codec and is gaining support in many different programs and hardware setups.
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Yes. FLAC but also Ogg. I can't have everything in loseless :)
    • CGorman68, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2We could debate for ages which codec is the best but once we finally declare a "winner" (FLAC being my choice) something with higher sound quality or smaller file size will be thought up.

      For right now I'll stick with my FLAC/mp3 combo and wait out the battle on the sidelines.
    • bradleyland, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11"Yes. FLAC but also Ogg. I can't have everything in loseless :)"

      FLAC is a codec, OGG is a container. They're not the same, and actually, you'd have both, because FLAC can be used with OGG, as can Vorbis.
    • ImTheDarkcyde, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1wait wait wait, i've confused myself.

      either way i still mean what i said, sonys codec rocks balls, but their players unfortunately do not
    • thtroyer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@ ImTheDarkcyde
      Again, what are you talking about? What _is_ Sony's audio codec(s)? Sorry, but I'll take the rocking open source codecs (flac/ogg vorbis) over crumby proprietary ones (esp. those no one has heard of) any day.

      Ogg vorbis is truly amazing. As far as I'm concerned, it can retain excellent quality at ~160 kb/s (quality=5) where other codecs would fall flat on their face.

      If only the big guns (MS, Apple) would adopt them... but alas, that would admit defeat of their own codec(s) and admit the existence of *gasp* good open source software.
  • tehbored, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Dammit it sucks when this kind of thing happens. It's a crappy format in terms of sound quality, but it has become the industry standard. Now we're going to have one hell of a time getting rid of it! Sure it's convenient in some ways, but modern hard drives are so big (and are rapidly getting bigger) that file size isn't even a problem.
    • TheNik, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3I've never understood the whole "there's bigger storage now, so let's just use ____ with more file size" argument. I'd much rather have 10,000 lower-quality MP3s to listen to on the computer than 1,000 high-quality AAC files or something.
    • cdmarcus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Sorta like IE's crappy HTML implementation has become standard. It's getting better, though.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You can get a proper HTML implementation without wasting space though.
  • Trax78, on 10/12/2007, -19/+3Woah, if this goes through. Say goodbye to 70% of Apple's revenue(Ipod+Itunes) and the death of MP3 players.
    • Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10You mean Hello Apple with the ACC format..
      One software upgrade will remove the Playing of mp3's
    • Aninhumer, on 10/12/2007, -8/+3RTFA, Apple's AAC format is the leading contender if and when MP3 fails.

      (Not that that's a good thing, Vorbis FTW :P)

      EDIT: 2fast4me
    • replica, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Alcatel-Lucent could sue Apple the same as they did Microsoft. A software upgrade does not erase years of illegal MP3 use.
    • cdmarcus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4AAC is actually an open MPEG format
    • cdmarcus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Digg down, posted twice.
  • weister42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9There are people who don't even know what mp3 stands for and yet they want to pull the plug already? There are millions of mp3 players(not to mention cellphones) in the US alone so if they decide to end it now the outcome would be massive public backlash.
    • Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1That's why firmware should be open etc, so that if you wish to add functionality (like enabling the device to playback a codec) then you could easily do so. Give me an Open Source (preferably linux) phone/"media" player anyday.
  • geekee, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19"I think it was just a matter of time until the open source will take over this area too."

    Are you on crack? Seriously, lay off the drugs.
    • metalhead3767, on 10/12/2007, -7/+7Yea because open source has taken over anything else.
    • IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -11/+9Open source fanatics are like religious zealots: they will always whine that it is just a matter of time before Christianity/Linux/Buddhism/Scientology takes over the planet.

      Younger computer users have an aversion to paying for things because they have small budgets, and they typically pass through an academic environment (where IP is ignored) to get into the industry. These factors contribute to the "everything should be free!" mentality. Once you actually earn a paycheck in the industry, you will realize that money changing hands for software makes perfect sense, and that virtual information goods are just as valuable as real goods.
    • Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8>Buddhism

      You don't know anything about Buddhism do you...
    • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Ummmm XVID is open source (GPL) and it has pretty much taken over as the most common video codec type...I don't see why a similar situation could not happen with audio.
    • IceZZ, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I am a buddhist, idiot.
    • straxus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"I am a buddhist, idiot."

      Then act like one.
    • alucinor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@IceZZ
      "[open source fanatics] will always whine that it is just a matter of time before Christianity/Linux/Buddhism/Scientology takes over the planet."

      What's more important than open source is open standards, which have been essential in the formation of the PC market (with open processor architecture, x86, or USB) and the Internet (open network protocols). But open _source_ lends itself best to implementing open standards because companies usually don't like cooperating with each other, and try to buck the standard whenever possible (see: the fragmentation of the commercial UNIX market, leaving only the open source UNICES standing, with HPUX and AIX the odd-men out).

      The GPL is a particularly good license because it enforces a neutral zone between companies, where every company knows contributing to the shared pool of code, no one gains a specific advantage, except the advantage they stand to gain together as they advance their entire market/industry as a whole. Again, the rise of the Internet is the best example of this: companies cooperate, everyone profits.

      Open source is nothing new. It's actually been around a long time: it's called science (publishing your research, subject to peer review), and it tends to create superior software over time (Linux, Apache, Ruby, FreeBSD, C++, PHP, PostgreSQL, etc.).
    • alucinor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Overall, I think the industry is maturing to the point at which tech companies no longer will stand to profit by trying to control the computing ecosystem (lock-in formats and protocols), but by proving who can provide the best service within an open ecosystem that is neutral and far beyond the grasp any one particular company or individual (controlled by the "community").
  • rowlodge, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1they just charge an extra fee for it like eveything else and we will just p2p the rest.
  • codyman, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2lame3.97 --preset-standard sounds fine by me as a standard for everyone :-)
    • Endemoniada, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Indeed, it's fine for the greater majority of people. Some of us, though, want more when we listen to music. OGG/AAC clearly does it for me, and I'm starting to think about re-ripping my library to lossless formats now that I have the harddrive to store it.
    • evolseven, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I don't generally do lossless, but I know that mp3 generally cuts off around 16khz+, now the limit of human hearing is about 20khz give or take some, and hearing is severely diminished above 15khz or so, but a large amount of spatial information is encoded in the higher frequencies, and as a side effect generally audio becomes flat sounding when you remove these frequencies.. there is a benefit to lossless even when looking at it from a purely technical standpoint.

      The truth of the matter though is that 90% of peoples sound systems probably cant reproduce these sounds accurately anyway, so it becomes a semi-moot point.
    • lump1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Oh please, maybe I really can't hear the difference between a 200kbps OGG file and a lossless FLAC, but come on, these are harmless placebos at worst. There is a ton of "audio voodoo" out there, and I find some of it silly. But with hard drives costing what they do, the storage space for a typical album encoded losslessly is less than a US dime. That's cheaper per disk than one of those CD folders! So the difference in a lossless format might be undetectable to my ear... and I'm not sure that it is..., but at least I know for sure that I will never have to rip that CD again! If a better lossless format comes around, I just re-compress it.

      More importantly, with a tool like dbPower Music Converter, I can convert my lossless music to OGG or M4A or whatever lossy codec happens to be hip. In fact, now that dMC supports multiple processors, my encoding speed is faster than my USB transfer rate to my portable player. This way, when I add new music to my iAudio player, it's always a freshly-made file using the latest and greatest lossy compression technology. If I want to fit a ton of music for a long trip, I use a lower bitrate. Usually, I keep it around q=6.5. The flexibility and future-proof-ness of this system is not to be underestimated.

      Also, if you ever burn CDs for a friend, you don't need to find them and re-rip them. You just decompress your lossless files, which takes a few seconds. I don't know about you, but I think it's rude and stupid to burn music that was once encoded in a lossy way, when you have the lossless disk in your house. What if my friend one day decided to rip and lossy-recompress those? No thank you! I think I'll fork out the extra 10c worth of disk space.
  • N1XUK, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9if anything aac will take over, mainly as its the audio component for mp4
  • rabidstrikes, on 10/12/2007, -11/+7digg down please
    • GoldYoshi, on 10/12/2007, -9/+3OGG Vorbis>MP3. And why do you idiots digg this guy down? Honestly, it's as good as MP3, and 1/3 the size.
  • schoate09, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3All my music is in MP3 right now. It works on all of my devices, so I don't have an issue. I plan on ditching my iPod soon (or at least making it a stereo USB only jukebox) because of battery issues, and I'll probably get a Zune. I wish OGG would take over, as it's a great format, but if not, I'll go to WMA.
  • Jarasmen, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20Yeah, I'm converting my whole mp3 collection into ogg as we speak because there's a lawsuit. No, really.

    Okay, not really.
  • nevaseez, on 10/12/2007, -16/+3as long as the new format isnt as ***** as .7z
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15What? 7z is far way better then any other competing formats like ZIP, CAB, RAR or ACE.. Get a clue.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Really 7z is a perfect example of what should be used but people would rather pay for and use inferior Rar and there are plenty of insane people who still use Zip (I suppose shell integration in Windows is a draw but it's not as if that isn't possible with other formats with a few minor installs).
  • DoTheFandango, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The only reason I use MP3 is because it is so universal. If I were to give an .mp3 to my grandma, she can play it automatically on any computer with little to no work. You give someone an .ogg file, they will have to do more work to provide themselves with the same gratification. Look at OiNK, you don't see many Ogg Vorbis encoded albums, and for good reason.
    • GjooGjoob, on 10/12/2007, -7/+1Speaking of OiNk, does anyone have any invites? Pretty please?

      (insert blathering about the superior file format)

      okay then carry on
    • felderado, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3look at OiNK, where 3/4 off all FLAC albums were transcoded from MP3s!

      Don't bring a retarded community into your argument.


      BTW, all my music is in FLAC and OGG. And I wont change. Ever.
    • Xilon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What the hell are you talking about? You install Ubuntu or some other Distro that has crap preinstalled and you will be able to playback ogg vorbis, guaranteed. With MP3s you may have trouble...
  • Cleanlyness, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5HMMM lossy OGG or lossless FLAC? Proprietary Apple format or open source? wow this is soo hard.
    • eatrains, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13AAC is not proprietary. FairPlay is, and is only present on songs purchased from the iTunes Store. There is a distinction. AAC is part of MPEG-4 and was developed by Dolby and Fraunhofer, among others, and requires no licenses or payments to stream or distribute it. Don't subscribe to anti-Apple propaganda.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding
    • lump1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Alright, it's true that FLAC doesn't compress all that well. Monkey's Audio, which is now my default format to rip to, does a better job with compression. But both are far better than WAV files because they can store ID3 tags. When I re-encode them to a lossy format for my portable player, the ID3 tags translate perfectly to either M4A, OGG or Lame MP3. I love the dbPower Music Converter!
    • ThatsNotPudding, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Pfft....

      I refuse to listen to music in any other form other than pure binary. Only ones and zeros can truly express the artists' true glory.

      Amateurs.
    • Cleanlyness, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1^nerd
  • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Yea, as I have said for along time. It's time to give up the stupid old MP3-format. There are allot of superior formats out there such as AAC and Ogg. The only problem existing is the lack of support for these formats in MP3-players. Most MP3-players today will support MP3, which is some what of a standard. Even though it's bad. They will also support the Wav-format, for some reason. Who ever put wav-files on their MP3-player? They alos support Wma which no one is using anyway. So get rid of WAV and WMA support and throw Ogg, FLAC and AAC support in there. It's really time to abandon Mp3...
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2How do you rips CDs to AAC?
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Well, m4a-format then. But it is MPEG4-AAC. There are allot ot programs out there that will rip CD to mp4, Ogg ot FLAC directly. If you meant that I thought that the WAV-format was useless, you were right. On MP3-players it is. Not on computers. I have never heard of any one Ripping their music collection to WAV-files permanently or play WAV-files on their MP3-player. That support is useless. So, out with WAV and WMA and in with MPEG4-ACC, Ogg and FLAC.
    • mtekk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3most mp3 players that support .WAV use it for recording from their built in microphones, so it is used even though you may not have used it yet. .WMA on the other hand can go to hell, it eats up battery life, especially DRM'd .WMA files.
    • dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I wonder if any of them use adpcm encoding for their wav files. It's a really cheap (simple to code, using very little ram and cpu) way to achieve 4:1 compression with minimal loss. Not all wav files are raw uncompressed pcm.
  • Fluidity, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I have to say I use OGG but I regret switching to it a little bit, I just wish there was a bit more support out there from hardware makers. A Samsung Z5 and OGGs makes a fine combination (gapless, reasonably long battery life) however its been a lot of hassle now I'm on a mac getting itunes to play it, stream it over airport and burn cd's from the OGG files, all just requiring niggly bits of extra software costing money and making things a little less seemless. I'm still sticking with it though, the superior sound quality and the fact it was designed for gapless make it well worth the while when you listen to mixes and use some decent headphones.

    It still pisses me off Apple hasn't added support for it though, it really wouldn't require very much of their time and it is royalty free. Lack of Ogg support will probably stop me considering getting an iphone, I know they don't care as millions won't need it and I'm not their target demographic, I'll just use a nokia phone with an OGG player installed instead.
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Yepp. I want to see less WMA and WAV support for Mp3-players which is totally useless and more FLAC, OGG and AAC support.
    • broomett, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9millions wil not be getting an iPhone.
    • Steeple, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Anyone who cared could write an ogg decoder plug-in for quick time and ogg enable itunes, front row and anything else . There used to be one but it wasn't updated
    • replica, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4WMA useless? Support for the default audio codec on 95% of the worlds computers is not useless.
    • archlich, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The iriver clix supports ogg. It's one of the main reasons I purchased it.
    • Kyderdog, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2>WMA useless? Support for the default audio codec on 95% of the worlds computers is not useless.
      Microsoft doesn't have 95% of the computer market nor has it had it for quite a while..but that my friend is another story
    • wolf08, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4As does the S10 =) (ogg). Weird.... did doesn't let you do the heart symbol. I guess it thinks I'm trying to put html in there. Bah.

      Anyway, Flac for the main library
      Ogg for the portable.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1How do you then sync. I know Amarok has a re-encode on sync feature but it takes ages and it is the only one I've seen do it.
  • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -26/+5All my music is in WMA. I love WMA and being able to use it in any audio player.
    Ripping CDs takes very little time too compared to MP3.
    • MrViklund, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14I guess your the only one on the planet :)
    • broomett, on 10/12/2007, -16/+7viklund...maybe YOUR planet. But here on earth..in reality...lots of people prefer WMA over MP3 and many others.
    • dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17I've seen sound tests where WMA lost to everything including MP3 at the same bitrate.
    • replica, on 10/12/2007, -10/+6@jrocknyc

      Why would someones choice of an audio codec sadden you? Nothing wrong with WMA.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Wow.
      People who said they like AAC/MP3/FLAC/OGG all got dugg up.
      I said I like WMA, and I got dugg down.
      digg.com users have some ***** bias.


      @dtfinch: please show me a comparison at 192kbps
      @jrocknyc: please dont get saddened by my choices. get a life!
    • karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Bias but with good reason.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3blow me jrocknyc, that sure will make you happy ;) ;)
    • dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I went back and found one of them. It was at 128kbit:
      http://www.rjamorim.com/test/multiformat128/results.htm
      It actually beat something called Atrac3, which I never heard of. But it lost to LAME and the others.

      I wasn't aware of the different types of WMA though. They used standard WMA. A later test with WMA Pro closed the gap.
      http://www.listening-tests.info/mf-128-1/results.htm
      Though a statistical tie, WMA Pro scored slightly ahead of LAME and slightly behind Vorbis and AAC.
    • straxus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"digg.com users have some ***** bias. "

      Wow. People on digg hold opinions? Shocking.
      Even more so when the majority view differs from your own, huh?
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@dtfinch: Can you find me one at 192kbps please? Can you also find what equipment is needed to hear the differences to compare 192kbps WMA vs 192kbps MP3?
      @straxus: You can have opinions. Great! But stopping others from expressing their opinions is not the democratic system that digg intended the up/down button to be used.


      Someone show me that a 192kbps WMA is worse than MP3.
      Can any of you 20 digg users that dugg my comment down show me why WMA is not as good as MP3?

    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3http://www.soundexpert.info/coders192.jsp

      Last listening test in this group finished 9 Jan 2007 with the following results:
      Ogg Vorbis, AAC+, AAC LC and WMA 9.1 showed the best audio quality
      MP3 and MPC are second
      AAC LC from iTunes is last due to the bug
    • straxus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"But stopping others from expressing their opinions is not the democratic system that digg intended the up/down button to be used."

      Being dugg down doesn't stop you from expressing your opinion. In fact, comments that are dugg down are more likely to be read, because there's a mystery as to why so many people found that particular comment worthy of being dugg down. Was it a troll? A stupid comment? Massive disagreement? You can't know why until you click the 'show more' link. That link gets clicked alot. We are a curious lot.

      Also, how else would you expect a system like this would be used? The digg down/up system for comments is an indicator of the majority view of Diggers on a subject. A barometer of sorts. That in itself is a useful tool. Lastly, democracy (especially in America's winner take all system) is majority rule. People who hold minority views (In America - Libertarians, Greens, etc) do not get represented. I'm not sure why you think democracy on Digg would work differently.
  • broomett, on 10/12/2007, -12/+2Will take over this area TOO?

    Open source hasn't taken over ANY area yet.
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11Are you blind? The Internet is run on Open Source. Just look at the lead Apache (and LAMP servers in general) have of IIS. Not to mention all the old BSD servers out there.

      And then you can look at the embeded OS market. Specifically the TiVo, and many HDTVs, DVD players, Cellphones, and more that run Linux.

      Oh, and the NFL wire cam :-P
    • nixfu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Ummm..ever hear of Xvid?? Its the most popular video format, and its GPL open source. Just because YOU dont have a clue does not make it true.
    • karamba_kid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Firefox takeover. remember http://getfirefox.com
  • fulldecent, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1My car plays CDDA and MP3.
  • baskus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+1die mp3, gogo ogg kk?
    there just aint any downsides to that happening is it? :P
  • dtfinch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I really doubt we're going to see mp3 disappear. MP3 licensees, fearing a lawsuit, will buy a second license from Lucent. They'll continue to support mp3 because average consumers are ignorant of software patent problems or alternative formats.

    Most of my music is .ogg, but LAME VBR really doesn't sound all that bad, if you forget about the legal problems. I still can't wait for more portable music players to support ogg though. Then I might actually buy one for myself.
  • gfair, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0I'll take FLAC or ALAC any day. I want lossless formats. It doesn't matter if it's open or not, so long as I can play songs in any given format on my iPod.
    • prammy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The chances of you noticing the audio difference on an ipod with lossless formats compared to lossy formats is pretty slim. However if you have it connected to a good amp and speakers, then the difference can be night and day.
  • chonuts, on 10/12/2007, -8/+0i hope mp3's finally fizzle away. they're compressed, encoded and recoded, and sound awful compared to a cd, which consists of wav files with a higher sampling rate. thus, a 4-minute mp3 would be about 4MB. the same song as a wav file would be about 14MB. sure, mp3's are smaller, but there's a lot of information that's lost when converting from wav to mp3. most of it's coded and spliced, notably the high-end frequencies. play a cd through a good sound system, then play the same song as an mp3 through the same speakers, and you'll hear a noticeable difference. it's not a good one. i even prefer vinyls over cd's, but that's a whole different story.
    • ki85squared, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7It all depends on the compression rate. I rip CDs at 192 kb/sec, and the quality difference is negligible. :) I really don't see the problem with mp3...
    • Teej, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@chonuts (ha....ha...)

      Then don't encode 128kbps mp3s.
    • MKinSJ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5i prefer my wax cylinders to vinyl
    • shank2001, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3You lost all credibility saying you prefer records to CDs. Let me guess... you prefer the distortion of tubes over solid state too, right?
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Records being better than CDs is the same as TVs being better than monitors. They paper over the cracks by having less fidelity. With appropriate anti-aliasing all the problems with CD disappear much as monitors brutally showing up every flaw in a TV image were solved.
  • deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Unencrypted AAC is the way to go. It's widely supported and royalty free
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1How to rip CDs to AAC?
    • ipodman715, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You can use iTunes or Winamp.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1iTunes AAC is not true AAC. No other AAC software can playback iTunes AAC.
  • jellygraph, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This ought to demonstrate to Microsoft 2 things:

    1. The patent system is _wrong_
    2. They should have supported OGG Vorbis

    Hopefully this will serve as a lesson... a very expensive lesson... not just to them, but the rest of the industry as well

    tsk
    • MasteRR, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2This won't teach them. They live on patents and proprietary software. We could hope they would learn their lesson from this, but it's not likely.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They won't back Vorbis. It's important for them to have as few successful OSS projects as possible. The more successes there are the more idiotic their FUD looks.
  • Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4This is just more evidence that the patent system is broken, and no longer serves the best interest of the public. I could say the same for the entire legal system in the US, or the government in general...somebody wake me up when the revolution starts.
  • stateq2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5This is one reason why I encode any cd I get in ogg vorbis.
    • bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Agreed; the quality is much better than MP3 for the amount of HD space used. The only problem occurs when you want to load the songs onto your MP3 player. My collection's in OGG but I have lame around for loading up my player with the latest tunes.

      I downloaded a script that converted my MP3 collection to an OGG collection a while back; it saved me about 20% space on my collection and I noticed no degradation in quality. Since then, I've been sold on the format. If you're looking for a player that supports it, try http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6450_7-5899700-1.html. For me, a 1 GB Sansa player and lame do the trick.
  • craigyjack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5edited, digg down.
  • lilSears, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1This seems to be just like Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD. If I were to foresee the future, I'd predict that all the competing codecs/file types will kill each other in a war and dvd/mp3 will prevail.
  • ataylor32, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I definitely prefer Ogg Vorbis. I don't have /too/ much of a problem with the quality of MP3s as long as the bitrate is high, but the thing I don't like about MP3s is they don't natively support gapless playback.
  • ahmerhussain, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1AAC will take over as it is the default in iTunes, teh worlds most popular media player.

    • bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Sadly the world's most popular media player is the piece of ***** built into Windows.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3piece of ***** works better than the holier than thou itunes
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2iTunes is so rubbish on Windows (never seen such a slow piece of junk, they must have worked hard to make it that bad) it isn't funny and doesn't even exist on Linux. When KDE4 comes out then Amarok will be the best option for cross platform music players, best player on the planet by some distance.
  • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Am i the only one with a nice mp3 player that can play OGG vorbis? its not a battery hog at all, i regularly get 16-18 hours playing back 160kbps OGG files.

    For the record, anything encrypted takes MORE POWER regardless of the format, if you believe otherwise you dont know what your talking about. Apple AAC with DRM takes more power to decode than OGG, not to mention it sounds horrible. And no one supports Apples format but Apple (which is NOT standard AAC) , this is what they want, and i don't see that changing, per Steve Jobs letter.

    Apple had to support mp3 or the whole iPod line would have failed miserably, but they had no reason to support ogg, they would rather you lock yourself into iTunes.
  • jake3988, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1mp3 is encumbered by patents and is crappy quality.

    However, mp3 provides that fine line between quality and space making for the perfect format.

    Lossless mp4 takes up about 5x the space. But its oh so awesome in terms of quality.
  • CrazyZ, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0So if MS does get a reduction in the ruling or gets it overturned completely, then will they be good guys?

    How will some of the OSS zealots cope with that?
    • bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't think the Open Sound Source guys give a damn.
  • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1You guys have to realize none of this is black and white, thinking that way will get you in trouble almost every time. Microsoft i'm SURE didn't get blindsided by this, i wouldn't put it past them to have created this whole situation.

    It benefits Microsoft greatly if they cannot use MP3 any more.

    Imagine it, Microsoft no longer allowed to use MP3, how convenient they have their own format that happens to have DRM built in......never would have imagined it.....Microsoft is never the good guy, they are not looking out for you in any way.

    • Phoenixfury, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2WMA doesn't have DRM built in, only protected WMA does. The same is true of AAC as well. Besides I don't think mp3 playback is going to just go away in any player any time soon anyways. Even if it did, WMA and AAC would be the clear winners, although I'm leaning towards AAC being the successor to mp3.
    • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Yes, WMA does have DRM built in. You really think there are 2 WMA formats, or that microsoft just "wraps" WMA inside an encrypted container?

      Part of the reason for a new format was to build in DRM in a way that couldnt easily be separated, and of course so MS could "own" the format and thus all media. If you dont believe that, go look it up, gates talked about it all the time a few years ago. They've been trying for years to be the center of all media, WMA was only the beginning.
    • Phoenixfury, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2WMA as a format does not contain DRM initially. Just like AAC files both formats do not contain DRM, therefore they are unprotected formats. However when you buy them from an online music store, then DRM is added to those files making them protected WMA's or protected AAC's. Both formats can be used with out any DRM protection.. Heck I have unprotected WMA's on my cell phone right now. I could easily copy them or even share them like any mp3, same thing with my unprotected AAC's. The distinction here is protected just means the format has a DRM copy protection lock on it, where unprotected don't.
  • Phoenixfury, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I wonder what this could mean for podcasts in general. I think this latest lawsuit could raise a dark cloud over the podcasting community unfortunately as the majority of audio podcasts are in the mp3 format. However if podcasters were to be forced to a different format, I think it would likely be aac as some podcasters are already using that format anyway. The fact that aac podcasts already do exist may be a motivating factor for DAP manufacturers to look at the format seriously. Granted there are likely plenty of podcasts in other formats, I think the majority of non mp3 podcasts are already in aac. I'd put my money on the podcast medium being the deciding factor on which format is to move forward.
  • hadak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2all of my music is in m4a (aac) format. i only had to recently convert it to mp3 when i wanted to consolidate it onto my mythtv box (which, for some reason or another doesn't seem to recognize m4a).
    • bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1FOSS software isn't recognizing one of Apple's proprietary audio formats? What else is new?
    • nandabanaotakun, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Except m4a isn't proprietary. Apple puts Fairplay DRM into their iTS .m4a files. There is a huge difference.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1m4a isnt AAC
  • Charbax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1It's good that Microsoft pay out tons of Cash, they should pay out all of their cash, not to other coorporations but to all of us.

    Patents and other copyright systems should be cancelled by some new law, that makes imediately every copy free, with no licencing required to anyone. Merit, quality, popularity, usefullness should be measured by some measuring, analog and digital fingerprint reader communicating with a state-controlled database, to measure merit, quality, usefullness and the creators, artists and software engineers should be compensated before the salesmen and monopolistic patent and rights holders.

    Have a good Oscar piracy night.
    • bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4No.

      If you don't want Microsoft to have your money, stop buying their *****.
    • Charbax, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Microsoft has a monopoly. There is no other choice in computer stores. So no I do not have a choice.

      When Linux computers become more available, for half the price and twice the stableness of M$ Vista Joke later this year, then sure I will not buy (or steal) M$ OS software anymore.

      It's amazing that they can force people to buy their crappy OS for so many years (by really evil unfair business practices), but that is part of the lie that is the capitalistic patent/copyright licencing systems of today.
    • mousky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You do realize that being a monopoly and engaging in monopolistic behaviour that has a negative impact on the market are two different things?
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ Charbax
      Microsoft was called a monopoly on the Intel-based PC system since Apple/Sun used non-Intel hardware.
      It no longer is a monopoly.
  • th3wiz4rd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Go Ogg Vorbis!
    • th3wiz4rd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Did you know: Bungie's Microsoft-Published Halo (and a zillion other games) for the PC uses Ogg Vorbis audio? Why? Because it kicks ass and it's free.
  • JesusIsSatan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If the patentholders of MP3 codecs sued in the MP3's infancy about a decade ago, and an injunction would have been in place to prevent companies from using it, Microsoft's WMA format could've been the music industry's digital format today. Maybe even ogg which is a better compression format. MP3 was the VHS of the 90s - not better than Betamax, just more widely available.
    • mousky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1When something is more widely available, it is usually because there is something better about it. Yes, from a audio/video perspective, Betamax was better than VHS, but from a consumer perspective, the fact that you could record 4 hours (later extended to 6+ hours) on a VHS tape versus 1 hour (later extended to 2 hours) on a Beta tape, made VHS a better solution.
  • mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Haha, this is funny *****, half of you don't even realize AAC is an MPEG format........
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Everyone who claims that AAC is very good for music doesnt even know how to rip CDs to AAC.
      They think Apple's implementation is THE AAC format. Morons!

  • akatsuki, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1OGG and other open-source formats will never take off. You won't ever get mainstream companies to adopt them without DRM, and MP3 takes care of everyone else. Since there will never be an open-source DRM solution because of the political leanings of most open-sourcers, no ogg ever.
    • IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Oh! but their Lord Steve said DRM was baaaaaaaaaaaad!

      When is Pixar/Disney releasing movies on DVD with no encryption. When is Pixar/Disney selling movies on iTunes store without DRM?
    • th3wiz4rd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Bungie's Microsoft-Published Halo (and a zillion other games Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, Far Cry, Fable: The Lost Chapters, Unreal Tournament 2003/2004 to name a few) for the PC uses Ogg Vorbis audio. Never take off?!? It's already being used more than you think.
    • GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They could DRM wrap OGG without any compliance from OSS. All they would do is have a DRM decoder that then passes a stream to their ogg-vorbis player.

      Yes there will never be direct support for DRM from OSS but that doesn't make it impossible to implement their own.
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