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107 Comments
- Willeth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+84RealPlayer has never been the right solution for any problem.
- keithguh, on 10/12/2007, -13/+59If this goes through, it will be a terrible situation. :(
- radu79, on 10/12/2007, -1/+39Their RealPlayer streams, especially for video, are very, very poor (constant disconnects, won't resume from where it left, etc.).
So even though I plan to switch to Linux in the next few years, I don't think that RealPlayer is a solution to this problem. - ksbhaskar, on 10/12/2007, -11/+47Alas, the Beeb turns from open, trustworthy and unbiased to proprietary and partisan!
- Willeth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27Yeah, but one syllable > three. It's a nickname, not shorthand.
- centinall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28"Maybe because neither Flash nor Java are open source?"
Java, as of late last year, is open source. But it really shouldn't matter if it is or isn't open source. More that it is available to people on OS's other than Windows. - erkokite, on 10/12/2007, -6/+27I would expect better from BBC. Hopefully they come up with some solution to the 7 in 10 people who don't use the latest version of windows, or do not use windows at all.
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -9/+28This isn't surprising at all. Many of us have seen this coming. Just see some recent stories (reverse chronological):
Beeb slammed for 'fawning' to Bill Gates
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37411
http://slated.org/bbc_microsoft_bias
Brits! Act now to save the BBC from Microsoft
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/01/31/brits_act_now_to_sav.html
Beeb breaks out with Windows WMA protection
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35282
BBC Looks To Microsoft For Web 2.0
http://www.forbes.com/2006/09/28/bbc-microsoft-internet-cx_cn_0928bbc.html?partner=yahootix - haydesigner, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21@Cyphase, you really don't understand how BBC came to be, do you?
[hint: British broadcasting ain't like American broadcasting] - BrainInAJar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19"Maybe because neither Flash nor Java are open source?"
umm... java's open source.... - jman8888, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22why dont they use flash or java?
- ear1grey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12"We [The BBC Trust] propose to require the BBC Executive to adopt a platform-agnostic approach to rights management within a reasonable timeframe. The Market Impact Analysis (MIA) notes an expectation that the BBC Executive plans to develop a Real Player alternative in the near future. Our understanding is that the BBC Executive aspires to offer an alternative DRM framework, which would enable Apple and Linux users to access the service, but has yet to identify a satisfactory solution. In either case, we will expect this to have been addressed within 24 months." - From iPlayer PVT Provisional Conclusions - http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/files/pdf/review-report-research/pvt_iplayer/iplayer_pvt_provisional_conclusions.pdf
- centinall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13or how about dirac? after all, they're the ones that proposed it to begin with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_(codec)
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dirac/ - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Because the rules have said the downloads have to timebomb, but more importantly, the BBC don't own the exclusive rights to everything that will be available.
- stubear, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14I was thinking Flash too. It's cross platform, ubiquitious, and handles streaming video quite nicely.
- calacak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10@thinkfr33ly : "Maybe because neither Flash nor Java are open source?"
And the Microsoft products the BBC chosen are? - Drood, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The BBC are usually pretty good with most things, so to read this is bloody disheartening.
I really fail to see the point offering the content in restricted fashion like this, when a trip to the torrent site of your choice will yield a file that'll play fine on anything.
Plus the DRM will be cracked pretty damn quick. DRM always is. I know they can't GIVE the content away, but honestly, DRM'ing it to death is counterproductive. I'll stick to watching Top Gear via torrent thanks. I'd be happy to pay the BBC directly for it, but not for some DRM infested piece of *****. - badtz, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12are there open-source solutions that can wrap DRM over the video?
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -12/+20Oh the OSC - that's an unbiased source.
The use of Microsoft software is just a starting point. The BBC does not exclusively own all of the content that would be available, and so it comes back to needing DRM to protect the downloads. What technology can have DRM embedded and be used on every platform and meet all the other requirements [small file sizes, be foolproof for novices, have appropriate developer support to aid the BBC etc.]? There isn't any. Microsoft, at this point in time, offer a solution that will enable the vast majority of users to use the service, and it is available to the BBC 'off the shelf'. But it's only a starting point. The service isn't even out yet, so it will evolve with time.
I personally would rather it used Microsoft rather than Real (which is the current choice for streaming video), and I suspect most people would agree with me there.
If the BBC had chosen Apple technology for this, there wouldn't be any of this backlash from the OSS community - I say that as a diehard Mac user. It's Microsoft hate which is driving this whinging, nothing else.
Most of all, I can't stand the goddamn hype that Open Source people perpetuate with this. Using WMP streaming makes the BBC unbiased now (as opposed to the Real streaming they've used for years)?. Using WMP streaming violates their charter (as opposed to using Real)?. Get real, and get a life. Fact is, 95% of the UK will be able to happily use iPlayer without even realising your cries exist. And it's only the UK that matters, since no-one else can use the service anyway. - Badfysh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The Beeb seem to be caught between a rock and a hard place. It wouldn't hurt if Microsoft played the good guys for once and made plugins or a player for other platforms. They certainly don't need the lock-in with 95 per cent of the market already under their belts. Not a perfect solution I know, but at least you would have the choice.
- Stonekeeper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"You're not actually buying the show"
Excuse ME! I already PAID for the show to be made. Why shouldn't i be able to have it? - russellnation, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10I thought they would know better. BBC show Code Breakers - about open source software.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cqdqKhLIAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbMSct1w8yE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MolfqAcUguo - mickstephenson, on 10/12/2007, -8/+15http://digg.com/apple/Mac_users_the_BBC_wants_your_feedback
if you dont want this to happen then check out this article and fill out the online survey
the very least the BBC should do is allow a mythtv plugin to allow this - Cyphase, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11"The opensource community is full of whiners. Get over it." - uberdesigner
Yea, because you wouldn't mind if something you wanted didn't work on your operating system. - Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8AMD64 X2 4800+, Nvidia 7900 GTX, 2 GB RAM, etc.....
But yea.....rotary engine :( - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16I dont get why people like to write Beeb tho
BBC = 3 letters
Beeb = 4 letters - wonboodoo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Complain here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/make_complaint_step1.shtml
I especially encourage you Brits to complain - myfanwy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@willeth
surely one syllable < 3......
and i do get the point he's making, before anyone corrects me - Willeth, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7myfanwy - oh good god. I've been making mathematical errors all over the place recently, especially on digg. Good job I decided to get out of programming, eh.
- tomvendetta, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9The Beeb, aka the BBC (pronounced [Bee B]ee See)
- mickstephenson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7if the reason I am being dugg down is because at first glance it appears that this article is mac related, it actually includes mac and linux. I am a linux user and have never owned an apple product. this article links to this bbc questionnaire
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/consult/open-consultations/ondemand_services.html - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"but slashdot and digg are not the world. 99+% of people who want to use this service are going to be using Windows"
Yes and they will be forced to keep using it while companies only support Windows, it would be a much better solution to simply use a system that everyone can use, they could allow downloading of the actual files, support multiple streaming formats or use a flash player that everyone can access without charge (ok the Linux support is a bit shoddy compared to windows, but it works fine currently) - supermanred, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I dont care as long as I can finally watch Doctor Who on broadcast date rather than the next day via download!
- yorkie, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I'm definitely not defending the Beeb here, but what DRM alternatives are there which wouldn't involve similar restrictions?
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9"Whaaa nvidia drivers suck for Vista. Got to hell nvidia. 15fps! Blah blah blah."
Sound familiar? - cphuntington97, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7How about ogg?
If people are smart enough to install realplayer, they are smart enough to install ogg. You could even script up a java ogg player so people can watch right in their browser. - billydisaster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm not getting them for free. I pay my licence fee.
BBCs streaming media has always been *****. Like for audio why would anyone have ever chosen realplayer over mp3? - stephend, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Just a minute. Only last week the BBC stated the following:
"Platform-agnostic approach: As proposed, the TV catch-up service on the internet relies on Microsoft technology for the digital rights management (DRM) framework. The Trust will require the BBC Executive to adopt a platform-agnostic approach within a reasonable timeframe. This requires the BBC to develop an alternative DRM framework to enable users of other technology, for example, Apple and Linux, to access the on-demand services."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/news/press-releases/31-01-2007.html - Phil246, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5and your evidence for that is?
No, seriously - I dont see how you reached that conclusion at all. - Phil246, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4in addition, if they were in microsofts pockets, would they not be using windows server for things?
have a read of http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4606719.stm
"The servers themselves are running Apache web server software on either the Linux or Solaris operating system." - ajc30, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@Buelldozer, tizz66:
Actually Real has excellent linux support. - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7And for what? No average person cares - all they know is they can watch video from the BBC. No rules are being broken or something would have been done, and generally no-one could give a crap what technology is used if it's easy. Which all goes to show that no-one really cares what arguments OSS people come up with, because it still doesn't beat what's available right now.
- warriorscot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4What? Did anyone posting here read the last digg article about this BBC service, the BBC have specifically said that the windows only compatibilty is only temporary and they will bring a linux an Mac service soon its just taking them longer as obviously the majority are windows users so that is first priority rather than waste taxpayers money by delaying the project till they can use all the operating systems they are concentrating on getting the service up and going to the most people it can.
- geoff8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2For me THIS ISN'T about Microsoft, it isn't personal propaganda or anything of the like. Its simply the fact that I pay my taxes, which a part of goes to the BBC and just because I have an alternative operating system to Windows I CANNOT watch, essentially, my TV? It simply isn't fair.
I understand that, chances are, Microsoft's solution may have been better, it may be cheaper and that they do have to cater to the larger audience but that simply DOES not matter. After all, the BBC is a network created for EVERYBODY, it reports on all news, pretty much everything.
The BBC gets huge amounts of funding each year, if they are proposing to do something like this then they should make a Windows client and a Mac client. If your going to do it, do it properly? - Septimus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3They can't manage it in the time frame their on-line proposals dictate, they have a gvnmt mandate to meet. MS has a useable framework, so they are using it.
- miaow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2you can choose to use mediaplayer for streaming now. been like that for a while.
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The service does use peer-to-peer technology to distribute shows.
The reason downloads have to timebomb is because a) the BBC doesn't own the rights to everything it will be making available and therefore it has to satisfy the demands of the rights holders, and b) there are rules about what the BBC can and can't do with regards to competing with commercial organisations. By allowing people to download and keep forever any TV show they like (shown on the BBC), there is a strong argument that commercial broadcasters would be harmed, not to mention that DVD sales of the shows would be pointless (which provides a good revenue stream for the BBC). Also, without DRM the shows could be shared worldwide, and that makes it even more complex, because the BBC has other rights agreements in each territory for its content. For example, if Americans could get access to any of the shows available, that would very likely damage BBC America (a commercial channel), and other broadcasters that the BBC sells rights to for shows.
Of course, it's likely the DRM will be defeated, but that's not the point - there has to be some effort to protect the content in order to make the agreements valid and worth the paper they're printed on.
I don't want DRM on music from iTunes that I have paid money directly for, and that limits what I can do, but in this case, DRM is a fair solution. You aren't buying the content, essentially it is being rented to you for free. - tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2warriorscot, don't be daft. Open source people are so OUTRAGED that the better solution has been chosen over their non-existent solution that they're complaining first, then reading later.
- GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This person is so clearly an expert on computing. All those supercomputers that run Linux are so clearly outdated. As are all the RISC processors out there Linux supports.
x86 is the equivalent of rotary engines. True most Linux users run x86 but at the very least my OS will port to modern archs quite easily. - kevincannon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The point was about moving to a different DRM solution - one that supports multiple platforms.
Maybe the open source community should consider support Sun's DReaM project. -
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