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56 Comments
- schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22I suppose you would also defend DRM just because "it's already there"? Stallman wishes to ensure that Free (yes, capital F, as making money is no crime) software is not shackled in any way by a company. Let's learn from past mistakes. I suggest you read gnu.org to appreciate the raison detre of the project/movement.
- raingrove, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20Do you know that early versions of GNOME was a complete rip-off of KDE interface, almost identical except that the K logo was replaced with a foot.
- TriSight, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15@raingrove
True, but you can't exactly rip on Gnome for being an interface rip off when clearly KDE is a direct interface rip off of Solaris's CDE. That was one of the main reasons I started using KDE was because I worked on a Sun system at work and enjoyed the interface, I asked someone if there was anything similar in the Linux world, and was referred to KDE.
That being said and having used both, I think they are both valuable to the Linux desktop world. - bogomill, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15@combatchuck
"To me, a computer is a tool. It exists to do what I want done, and disappear when that is accomplished. To him, computers are a philosophy. He lives and breathes computers, and he's the head of FSF, one of the only groups of people championing for our rights in the new digital world we've created. He's a good man with noble intentions, I just wish he would shut up every once in a while."
Guess what the 'S' in the FSF stands for, "SOFWARE". It's ungrateful tards like you who continually miss the point of having the FREEDOM to do whatever you want with software. The main rallying point for the FSF is to continue to promote the use and development of software that you can use, modify, and distribute freely.
Face it your computer, your tool, is useless without software. It's the software that allows you to be able to use the computer to do your job. Since hardware vendors are always reluctant to provide "open hardware", the freedom to modify, use and distribute software as we see fit is the next best thing we can have.
You are probably just another Windows end-user and you don't care about this. But programmers care about these freedoms. Programmers are the people who "make" the software that you enjoy so much. The freedom to modify *and* write software matters, not only to programmers but to end-users like you.
Firefox, Apache, MySQL, PHP, Perl, Gnome, KDE, Linux, etc. If you're not using any one of these directly, you are using them indirectly. These are all here because of the efforts of freedom-loving programmers like RMS. Even Mac OSX and Safari, they are both based on Free (or Open Source) Software. - inkubux, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Ironically the main reason I switched from KDE (after 4 years) to Gnome it was that Gnome is more consistent in his look than KDE.
- Peterh, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Oddly enough, that's my reason for using Gnome. The only QT theme I ever liked was Plastik... and I still think Clearlooks and most of its variants are miles ahead of it.
But, to each their own, I guess. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19there was a war going on? I always just found KDE more visually appealing...
- zugu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9And why are people attacking him? He has a point. He has always had a point.
Please, understand. He designed a philosophy. He cannot change these values just because the wind happened to blow leftwards this morning. He does what he has to do. He keeps the ideology alive, so that we won't have to cry his name in the future.
RMS is not fighting for eye-candy software or easy-to-code-in programming platforms, specifically. He is fighting for the freedom of software - get it into your head, it's a CONCEPT.
I'm getting sick of this "RMS was a great man, however he's talking like a fool now, but we have to respect him because he's the father of the FOSS movement" *****.
He never stopped being a great visionary. He deserves our respect now just as much he deserved 20 years ago.
Buttheads. - valona, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I remember the Linux Desktop wars of 2000 well. It was a horrible and bloody time. I lost my brother in that war. He was walking home one evening wearing his GNOME t-shirt when he was confronted by 14 KDE freedom fighters, who had just left a LUG meeting entitled 'Why 2001 is the year of Linux on the desktop'. They knocked him to the ground, set fire to his hair, anally violated him with a 28MB MP3 player, and then cut his throat. By the time the truce was called, over 40,000 Linux advocates had died and over 27850 distros went unmaintained. It was an uneasy truce, both sides had to actually sit down and listen to Stallman for 3 weeks and over 350 GPL revisions were made to bring some kind of order to this dark, dreadful time. Brave men died on both sides to protect the integrity of the the desktop manager they loved. We can forgive, but we can never forget.
- Patented, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Did you even bother reading the title?
Article that "started" KDE vs Gnome War
i.e. It's a retroactive story showing the "then and now".
Attempts at Digg cynicism exceeds literacy! Film at 11! - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"even if it brought forth arguably one of linux's largest steps forward."
His goal which many others share with is a Free operating system. The objective isn't to have people use the software, it's to have people use it in freedom. If you think KDE was one of "linux's largest steps farward" then you realize how crucial it is that that allegedly important "step forward" doesn't depend on non-free software to function. Binary blobs are not auditable, not mantainable, not, not supportable, you can't debug them, you can't do ***** with them.
That's not Freedom. Success is measured by how many users are using software in Freedom, not by how many users are using the software. If KDE depended on a non-free component today it would be a major step backwards, the opposite of the goal. But you don't recognize the system is GNU so I wouldn't expect you to understand this either. - 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I dunno if it's so cut and dry. Right now I'm working on an Ubuntu box that's as much KDE as it is GNOME. It's half and half because I like some KDE programs and I like some GNOME programs also.
- ggoyal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6QT is now released under GPL. Earlier it wasnt. Perhaps this article can better explain the controversy behind it all:
http://kde.org/whatiskde/qt.php
Also, this is the first announcement for the KDE project (from 1996):
http://kde.org/announcements/announcement.php - ggoyal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6This isnt the article that started it all ... In fact, it belongs to the time when QT was released under GPL, trying to end the war.
I distinctly remember articles in magazines reproducing RMS' cry to gnomies to go ahead in spite of the above event, hoping to have two full featured desktops. - Enquest, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Is there a hate campaign against Stallman?
Nobody is talking about his arguments.
They are attacking his character... Why is this happening.
RMS is one of the great computer thinkers, he is like Gandhi for the nerds. - starquake, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Did you know the first GUI was a rip-off of Xerox?
Innovate not Immitate.
I say: Innovate and Immitate. - zugu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Oh, btw: be grateful that RMS is doing what he does: his influence and personality allow you to complain about which desktop you boot.
- joesnow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I was intrigued more so by the title and quoted paragraph about KDE/Gnome "war", because I wanted to see what people believed this time around to consider it a "war" between the 2 camps of developers. Read any gnome or k desktop developer blog and you'll find that not only do they get along quite well, they also share code, ideas, pizza, and many other things that make it more like 2 different ideas, rather than 2 opposing sides of a war.
Gnome + KDE + war = MS Windows end users debating linux community issues. If you're a linux user, new or old, AND agree that there's some sort of rivalry; then I suggest you start actually getting involved by at least reading about what really goes on in the world of those people on the "front lines" of your imaginary "war".
It would be a like an english department competing with an engineering department for students..... they're 2 totally different ideas that have camps of people that are better off learning from each other, and really have nothing to compete for. - geocar, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@concept03
``To me, "freedom" means that I am not restricted or prevented from doing something.''
Then you must think laws prohibiting murder remove freedoms as well.
Never mind of course, that the prohibition of murder is to prevent you from taking away someone else's rights, the GPL is designed in the same way:
Just as you cannot take someone else's life, close it up, and make it your own, you cannot take someone else's work, close it up, and make it your own. - concept03, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@schestowitz
He didn't imply anything about DRM, only that RMS has made the GPL license as contentious as commercial patents. I also happen to completely agree.
You mention "freedom", but I believe the most freedom in a software license exists in the BSD license. BSD is so free, that if I decide I want to close the source, I am free to do so. The GPL forbids this. To me, "freedom" means that I am not restricted or prevented from doing something. If I'd like to fork a BSD licensed project and close the source, or even change the license to GPL, I can. However, the GPL does not give me the "freedom" to do this.
If you'd like a better discussion of this issue, check Wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD_and_GPL_licensing - concept03, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@geocar
You make a good point, and I should have qualified my statement. I should have said that "To me, 'freedom' means that I am not restricted or prevented from doing something that does not infringe upon someone else's liberties".
You mentioned that "you cannot take someone else's work, close it up, and make it your own." Why not? That's freedom in its fullest form.
A BSD license does not damage the original code that a programmer has released to the public. It gives another programmer the freedom to make their own decisions on the code left in the public domain.
If you are worried about someone "stealing" your code, then don't open source it at all. If you really are adamant about freedom, I think you'd be best off choosing the BSD license. However, if you are producing your work for the education of others, or because you never want it to be closed up, GPL it (granted, that's a simplification of the meaning of the two licenses).
I think that your statement implies that "taking" means you are removing it from them and they no longer possess it. As I'm sure you know, software doesn't work that way and I think it would be more correct to say that you are "forking" their work, because what they have created would still be in the public domain.
Regards - Snakedal337, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14For as much I respect stallman and GNU for starting the "Software Revolution" it's articles like this that remind what just what a hard head he is. He so unforgiving of anything thats "Not Free Software" even if it brought forth arguably one of linux's largest steps forward.
The developers were willing to code it, and for free at that. Let them code it in what their comfortable with, regardless of its "legal" status. - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5A letter by Stallman on "linuxtoday.com". . . that's like an article about a declaration made by the rebel fleet from the Han Solo Times.
- zugu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Please enlighten me, Qt is not released under GPL anymore ?
- theCamelDude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3No, KDE will not have any problems if Trolltech gets bought out. See
http://www.kde.org/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation.php
And to quote from the Page (for all people that are too lazy):
To fulfil the purpose of the Foundation an agreement between Trolltech and the Foundation was made which gives the Foundation the right to release Qt under a BSD-style license in case Trolltech doesn't continue the development of the Qt Free Edition for any reason including, but not limited to, a buy-out of Trolltech, a merger or bankruptcy. - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4There is a war going on and Gnome and KDE are most certainly involved. Both KDE and Gnome are better than windows and getting better all the time, doing well on each of their fronts.
- monkeybrainz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Taking the article on merit, it does not look like this was that article that started the KDE vs Gnome "War"
- sirhomer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4rms used to release source code in a public domain-like fashion, but people would just take his code, improve it, and then close the source. He decided people are not free to restrict the copying and modification of his work, and the GPL was born. There is alot of rational on why GPL and copyleft in general is the way to go on http://www.gnu.org/
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Merging is unrealistic. So is a well planned abandoment one project and a pooling of resources.
I think the community will have to wait until a large majority of users shifts to just one desktop and then let nature whither the one away. Could be decades.
If the trolltech ever makes commerical development cheap with the QT or if Gnome ever makes an easy to program API all of that could speed up as the balance of power shifts. - mbrutsch, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Yes, but many KDE programs can't be run without running a ***** of KDE background processes, starting up the KDE "desktop", etc. Most GNOME apps run just fine as standalone apps. That's why I run gnome-panel and gnome-terminal under WindowMaker, because they cooperate with other window managers, instead of trying to be everything.
- zugu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Well, get used to it, this is digg.
- FallibleDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5rbanfly has a point. Everyone is aware of this licensing issue. It was long since resolved in a very good way that made the issue worth raising, and there was never any "war". This isn't news. Nor is it accurate "olds", NOR is it a comparison between then and now. It's FUD. Buried.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I love the way so many people dismiss RMS as a nut.
Yes, he's hard line, yes, he says contentious stuff and kicks up a storm, but let's not forget how much cool stuff we have because of him - and let's not forget that plenty of other developers who make even COOLER stuff have been enabled and empowered by the FOSS movement he's so passionately advocated and fuelled. You can bet your bottom dollar that without the GPL or something like it, all of these large tech corporations would have closed their linux LONG ago.
RMS is like a war vet of OSS - this is how Linus etc. will be in years to come. If he farts at the dinner table, rattles on constantly about how you can't trust the Germans (or in this case anti-freedom tech corporations) and generally makes an old bugger of himself, that doesn't mean you should stop respecting his experience or his contribution to the general effort.
The guy loves all of us having this particular kind of freedom, and is prepared to stick his neck out for it in the way his profession allows. Fair play to the guy. - pdiddle, on 10/12/2007, -10/+12"The main reason a do not like KDE is that is tries to be Windows for some stupid reason, if I want Windows I will use Windows, I switched to Ubuntu / GNOME because I wanted somethng different."
Hah...ha...haha.. You serious? Gnome the desktop based around a concept where hiding features from their users (Windows?) is the way to go, K.I.S.S, a project where the more advanced (Note: what the developers class as more advanced, Windows?) are hidden in a archaic and windows orientated regedit (but worse) gconf settings manager.
KDE treats it's users with some respect, the same cannot be said for Gnome. - XVampireX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3http://www.twilightuniverse.com/2003/09/geek-vs-nerd/
- mtxblau, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yes, by default KDE looks like Windows. Yet, it takes no more than 10 minutes to make it look like Gnome (which I have done) or OS X. To say KDE looks like Windows is unfair, because you can't really do anything with with the windows interface, whereas with KDE, there is very little you *can't* do.
Face it, most people aren't going from OS X to KDE. They're going from Windows to KDE, and the default setup is what people are used to. More power to KDE for making it easy to make changes as soon as someone is comfortable with the desktop.
Those who say KDE is for Windows wannabes are those who haven't taken advantage of the features KDE has to offer. And if you're only giving that cursory a glance at KDE, I doubt you're using everything Linux has to offer, either. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The philosophy means nothing if people don't want to use or make free(dom) software.
If the software is appealing to normal, end user people, then the masses will fight for that software and the license/philosophy behind it.
I can see ordinary people fighting for Ubuntu and fighting for the right of that project to do things in a Free(dom), FOSS way, should that project ever be threatened.
I can't see non-geeks fighting for for linux from scratch, slackware, or Debian. - mtxblau, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's definitely much better than the Windows or OS X, where it's already been decided how you will interface with the desktop...
- Prod_Deity, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Here's what matters:
http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/000390.html
Linus says it perfectly. - Onestone, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's sad to see the most objective comment so far getting buried
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0They are not very similar at all.
Both are different enough that Gnome and KDE can be considured their own operating systems depending on your point of view. They go far beyond the consmetic or look'n'feel differences.
Gnome is it's own IDE. Gnome stands for "GNU Network Object Model Environment". It has it's own networking layer. It has it's own virtual file system layer. It's own interproccess communication methods. It's own office suite. It's own games. It's own browser. It's own text rendering system. It's own printing subsystem, etc etc.
Gnome-VFS. Pango. Corba. GTK+, GDK, Glib, GTK object system, libart, Bonobo... and dozens of other terms. All this functionality aviable for the programmer. It's pretty much it's own operating system.
Same thing with KDE. It has all it's own stuff also. Own VFS, own languages, own everything. They are very centered around object oriented C++ programming. All of it is different and just as complex.Intensely complex depending on how deep you want to go into it.
Also it they have different attitudes. KDE likes to write their own applications for everything. For instance for their browser they wrote their own http rendering engine. For KDE Office suite they wrote their own word proccessor.
For Gnome they like to take 'best of breed' applications and try to entice them to join up with Gnome and modify their apps to fit the Gnome HIG. Abiword for instance is part of Gnome office, but has it's own project. They used the gheko rendering engine from Mozilla project for their browser, adopted C# programming language from Mono.
Both KDE and Gnome have very stong human interface personalities and actually if you take a look at them individually then they have very consistant UI's.. much better then Windows or OS X.
For end users this stuff is hidden behind standards and they are trying to work together to create more standards. Stuff like Dbus, HAL, Portland project, Menu specifications, EWMH (for window manager compatabilities) etc etc.. These are all standards created by them and other groups so that applications in one will function in another's environment reasonably well.
The KDE vs Gnome 'war' is more of a end user internet thing. No real Gnome developer ever went to a forum and said 'Goddamn the KDE nazi fags" or anything like that. Gnome and KDE developers get along pretty well for the most part. They just have their own conflicting ideas about how to design a desktop. It's like a 'agree to disagree' sort of thing.
They have such vastly different approaches to doing stuff I don't see how smooshing them together would improve things.
Also the Free Software fans (of which I am one) should also take note that:
A. KDE concentrates on portability to a higher degree then Gnome. You should have KDE version for Windows and a KDE version for OS X out eventually.
B. The QT is GPL'd which makes KDE strong Free software, while Gnome libs generally use the LGPL which permits propriatory software linking to it, which is used to attempt to make Gnome more appealing.
Currently I prefer Gnome very much to KDE. But with QT4 coming out KDE should be doing some very very cool stuff. It's worth it to keep a very close eye on it. It's going to take a year or so, my guess, for KDE 4 to stabilise to the point were it's very usefull, but then it should be very cool. - Canute, on 10/12/2007, -9/+9To be honest, I don't really like RMS more then the people at Microsoft. They are both too much, in their own different direction. Don't get me wrong, I am forever gratefull for some of his accomplishment. I do see some advantages with proprietary software and I do see advantages with free software, especially a free operating system and open standards.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+9First, a 6 year old article is not news. It is an indication that someone needs a life away from his computer.
Second, the only problem with KDE is the QT license. It is extraordinally expensive for commercial developers. Wouldn't be nice to walk into a computer store someday, buy a cool piece of hardware, and find that it comes with software for linux?
Third, I agree witht he people who think it could be cool if the two desktop projects could be merged. If the technologies are too different to be combined then one should be abandoned. Since the KDE has an easier API and is more developed it should be the one to stay.
Yes, I know this will never happen, but it is what should happen. It would be cool to see the desktop developers working to compete with microsoft instead of each other.
Given that this a pipe dream because of the egos involved the Gnome developers should work on making their API friendlier.
This gets back to a regressive influence in the FOSS movement, the idea of making things for how people SHOULD want things rather than how they actually do want them.
The SHOULDS may be correct, but if it isn't what people want and there is an alternative they will not do the "should". Face reality guys. - Patented, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3My preference for Gnome comes from the fact that I have hacked up the aliasing of fonts in it to look very nice, and when I tried using KDE over the weekend - I just couldn't get the fonts to look anywhere near as nice. That, and I couldn't find a battery power applet and system monitor that were as nice as the ones that I was already using in Gnome.
I didn't mind the behavior of kde, and some of their apps are definately nicer (kwifimanager vs. gnome-network, for instance), but I just couldn't get over those "small" things that eventually become annoyances... - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Who cares anyway. The differences between them are so few to be irrelevant. GNOME is becoming unclean while KDE is cleaning up etc. I find it interesting so much oxygen is wasted over the differences between 2 similar products when other more remarkably different things exist.
- sirhomer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1How is this objective? Gtk+ has like 40 different APIs. I would use Gtk# or PyGtk over Qt's non-standard C++ anyday.
- sirhomer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Argggg again with the GNOME API fud.
hello = new TextBox();
hello.Caption = "Waffles";
wow such a crappy api
Gtk# btw - izelpii, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I don't understand the negative comments with respect to this article. To put things into perspective, think what would happened if Microsoft bought Qt, before they released the GPL. What happens if they buy it today? They will sue (as SCO) any company trying to use KDE or Linux or whatever Linux branded. And THIS time, they may have base, as analyzed by RSM. Everything have to be clean and smooth. I think he made well measured comments, and, he is not exaggerating in any single way. In the imaginary scenario that SCO or Microsoft buy Qt, KDE will have real difficult problems unless things are completely clear.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1KDE is so bloody ugly with its Kindergarten look.
- btnheazy03, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1There's NO way GNOME and KDE can be merged.
That's like saying WinXP and OS X can be merged -
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