What is Digg?161 Comments
- harlowsmonkeys, on 10/12/2007, -32/+134How come you don't mention the fact that Open Source Parking fakes their headers to give inflated Apache numbers?
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2007/04/04/open_source_parking_spoofing_headers_to_benefit_apache.html
Or do you consider faking headers to be OK, because they aren't Microsoft? - schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -47/+118Do not be misled. A certain company uses dirty tricks to tweak Netcraft figures.
Open Source Fights Back
,----[ Quote ]
| Question: The OpenSourceParking.com announcement cites a Netcraft
| report, which found that GoDaddy.com's migration from Linux to Windows
| caused Apache to lose server share. Was this event the sole impetus
| for OpenSourceParking.com?
|
| Perens: Not the first. It's part of a continuing behavior pattern by
| Microsoft that I think it's fair to call "dirty fighting." GoDaddy was
| using Apache (I assume on Linux) because it was a great technical
| solution. They didn't switch to IIS on Windows Server 2003 for any
| technical reason. The switch was accompanied by a press release by
| GoDaddy, containing Microsoft promotional language. Now, I've changed
| many servers from one thing to another, but I've never made a press
| release about it. GoDaddy wouldn't be doing that unless Microsoft had
| offered them something valuable in return. There has been talk in the
| domain business that Microsoft has been offering the large domain
| registries a wad of cash to switch their parked sites. There is no
| other reason to do this than to influence the Netcraft figures.
`----
http://www.itbusinessedge.com/item/?ci=15108 - SEMW, on 10/12/2007, -5/+73@GMorgan:
Everyone knows what ISS is: the International Space Station.
Duh. - SDyer, on 10/12/2007, -32/+83IIS has come a long long way. Admitedly it used to be laughable... but nowadays its a fairly decent product.
Added, the .NET framework is gaining huge followings, and theres definet ease-of-use factors. Not everything microsoft makes is crap. - Frost9999, on 10/12/2007, -3/+41I can't stand the tension, which fact?
- mcraigw, on 10/12/2007, -5/+39
The problem is with Netcraft. Parked domains shouldn't be counted as being on *any* web server, but should be counted as "parked". - senfo, on 10/12/2007, -15/+48@GMorgan,
Could you expand on, "LAMP pisses on IIS from a great height"? I've done a lot of PHP development in my days. It's a somewhat clean language that somewhat resembles C. It's generally pretty fast and I can use it to design web applications in a hurry.
Having programmed in PHP for a while, I was reluctant to give ASP.NET a try, despite the fact that I had been writing .NET Windows applications for some time. When job demands forced me into learning ASP.NET, I found myself with little choice, other than to look for a new job. Rather than be out of a job, I opted to learn ASP.NET, and what I found about IIS and ASP.NET was extremely surprising, to me. With an event-driven design, Microsoft had managed to add a level of control to ASP.NET that very closely resembled the programming style I was accustomed to while writing Windows applications. It was amazing, to say the least. IIS was infinitely easier to configure than Apache and, as others have mentioned, it has had fewer vulnerabilities than Apache. It was a win/win situation. ASP.NET had enabled me to design web applications that would have taken me months longer to develop in PHP and sitting on top of a web server that was every bit as reliable as Apache, my web applications were incredibly fast and secure.
PHP was good, in its time, but I truly believe ASP.NET meets or exceeds in every category I have tested. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -31/+63Indeed.
IIS7 + ASP.NET is a beautiful platform to develop for. - oojamaflip2006, on 10/12/2007, -8/+37I have to agree with some of the comments on here about how nice asp.net development is compared with LAMP. Now I know Microsoft is always doing really really evil anti-competitive things and I can neither excuse or condone them for this because lets face it it sucks *****. However, I've been a PHP developer for a lot longer than I've been a C# developer and I just have to say asp.net has a really impressive development environment. Would it be better if it was open-source? Of course! But this is Microsoft you're talking about so dont expect it anytime soon. You can of course digg up or bury this but don't bury for saying asp.net is great to develop for.
- Huwawa, on 10/12/2007, -4/+31Maybe that some are using things like lighttpd? Who knows.. I personally found lightttpd really easy to install.
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -14/+40I personally find the weak link in LAMP to be PHP. I much prefer ASP.NET
LAMM? Linux, Apache, MySQL, mod_mono, maybe? - plingboot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27(when did it become ok to start using then for than, it's driving me nuts)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -10/+35You're all wrong. The point of the matter is that ever since the first netcraft cheat nearly ten years ago, netcraft statistics have been utterly untrustworthy. Netcraft hasn't been relevant in the memory of 99% of digg users in the first place.
- grumpyrain, on 10/12/2007, -6/+30Why bury him? While I prefer Apache myself (with mod_mono if required), there is nothing wrong with IIS. It has no unpatched known issues.
IIS 6 - http://secunia.com/product/1438/?task=advisories
Apache 2.2 - http://secunia.com/product/9633/?task=advisories
Why has IIS market share increased?
1. You can't accurately measure it.
2. It is safe to run where IIS 5 was not playing in the same field. Some people who used to install Apache on their Windows 2000 web server don't bother anymore when IIS6 is with the OS. - Arkitus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27... more THAN 30%.
- SEMW, on 10/12/2007, -5/+27*The* Fact, obviously.
- wolferz, on 10/12/2007, -18/+38to summarize: instead of actually trying to compete were gona whine and bitch about how it's not fair. ::sob::
Many people in the open source community see Microsoft as an "evil corporation bent on world domination." You know how Microsoft views the members of the open source community? COMPETITION. Much more down to earth don't you think? It's because Microsoft doesn't have it's head in the clouds as it stands on its soup box and preaches about the evils of open source that they are ahead of open source every step of the way where it really matters. They aren't acting like hippies running around saying make love not war and generally looking like they are out of touch with reality. They are here to make money and open source is hurting the bottom line. They have responded the way any company in any industry would.
Mean while open source has made a lot of noise and has garnered a lot of interest. That is the political methodology and can not compete with a business methodology. While open source advocates are getting on their blogs and news aggregation sites to bemoan the evils of Microsoft, Microsoft is walking into the offices of companies that use open source and selling them close sourced products. While open source rants about the rights of users and freedom, Microsoft is gaining market share.
Stop trying to be political and start being competitive.
btw Topher06 is dead on right except one place (see below). The members of the open source community has no concept of how to function in the business world, which is why it is stagnating and actually beginning to lose ground. Hes right about this might be anti-competitive but that in fact is moot as it is Standard Operating Procedure and as such whining about it wont change that Microsoft is kicking open source's ass with it.
That said I don't think Apache will ever qualify as a cheep knock off compared to anything else on the market right now. It is a total pain in the ass to set up till you get good with it but it is definitely one of the best offerings in the web daemon world currently. It's just backed by a bunch of hippies instead of some one with business sense. - generalloy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22It seems like more websites are switching from Apache to lighttpd as well, for dynamic content (youtube serves videos with it, mininova)
- SamKellett, on 10/12/2007, -16/+33@SDyer: Dugg for "Not everything Microsoft makes is crap."
It needs to be said again; not everything Microsoft makes is crap. - GMorgan, on 10/12/2007, -44/+60@xTRUMANx
You're getting buried because no-one knows what ISS is. IIS on the other hand is a buggy piece of junk that is loved by managers and despised by techs. - yaosio, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22How can Microsoft have a monopoly on web servers if they have less market share than Apache?
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19"Also there is no way IIS has fewer vulnerabilities than Apache"
Why not? Microsoft has come a long way in security. Look at SQL Server 2005 and Vista. Both have had remarkably few vulnerabilities. - donatj, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Well at my company at least it seems some clients don't have faith at all in open source, as I got the impression in a conference call where a guy basicly called us morons for using php rather than Cold Fusion.
- tekrat, on 10/12/2007, -15/+28I think the switch is happening because .NET is starting to get some traction, OSS is starting to stagnate, and alternative servers are starting to be used. .NET and new technologies like Silverlight are coming available. The .NET platform has finally matured with 3.0 out and 4.0 coming soon. OSS is the same now as it was a couple of year.
PHP 5, Apache 2 are two biggies and they been out for years. PHP 6 is suppose to be here any day now, but I haven't seen it. Plus I'm still trying to find a reputable hosting service that has Apache 2, PHP5 and SQLite 3 support. *Most* places are Apache 1, PHP4, and MySQL 4 houses.
I also know of a lot of friends who role their own servers using solutions like lighttpd or Abyss Web Server because of the ease of management and the speed. - Topher06, on 10/12/2007, -18/+31Its called business guys, something the open source world doesn't seem to understand. Company X offers Company Y a discount or perk on a product that they need to use. Company Z (or rather feelgood grassroots foundation Z) doesn't because they give it away. But there is more demand or some benefit from using Company X's product. Company Z loses out.
Sorry, I know many of you think this is anti-competitive, but the bottom line this happens in every other industry, except that in every other industry, grassroots open source projects don't exist and so geeks don't care. If you had a choice between a free car, or a GM, and GM heavily discounted their cars for various organizations like the Police or other government agencies, but the free car looks like *ss or a cheap knockoff of some Asian import and has a tendency to not do everything exceptionally well and made from recycled toilette paper tubes and was hard to drive, then you would still get the GM over the free car (except some people would take the free car anyways because they simply hate GM). But GM puts their cars on sale to sell cheaper then Ford so that you want to buy a GM rather then a Ford. Geeze, I guess GM should be sued for anti-competitive behaviour because they don't price their cars the same as Ford and people prefer them over the free car including government agencies.
If Microsoft gave GoDaddy incentives on using their server products over FREE APACHE server products, and GoDaddy considered it worthy enough of a deal, then Microsoft saw a business opportunity and GoDaddy took advantage of it.
I mean, honestly, how MORE anti-competitive is FREE? If you can't sell the world on free products, your doing something wrong, period. You can argue all you want about how great Linux or Apache server is, or Open Office, etc, etc, etc. These "foundations" litterally can't give these products away. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18There is a strong MS current flowing in my small group. I see that that is not simply because they are choosing IIS/ASP/MS/NET as a technology, but because developers simply don't have time/capability/inclination/admins and/or don't want to fool with all the admin, integration, unix headaches (just want it now, want it to just run, want to do it myself), and because the heavy lifting seems to be already done for them. I mean, simple codeglue from library and cut and paste to stitch it all together is a powerful force. Maybe it is that way for Apache, not sure(Geronimo went in without a headache tho).
Funny, but they never complained (sigh) when they had to completely downgrade, then later upgrade Studio because the mobile platform on part of their platform forced it, midstream of development breaking things. - shakin, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Windows and IIS has gotten a lot better since IIS 4 and 5. It's easier to get setup and to configure for most purposes. Everyone used to use Apache because it was a "real" web server in comparison to Microsoft's "toy" web server.
The primary problem with Apache is that it's pretty much the same now as it was six years ago. Sure, 2.0 added new MPMs, but most people still use prefork for better PHP compatibility.
The Apache Foundation needs to address its configurability. They need to have an official remote admin utility (web interface or otherwise) that is powerful enough to configure everything with ease. Enabling PHP, for example, should be as easy as selecting the PHP module and then editing that module's settings if you want to change the filetypes used for PHP code. Virtual hosts should be as simple as clicking "Add virtual host" and then filling in values. Administrators shouldn't have to wade through the online manual looking for a directive for what they need... there should be dialogs for all that stuff.
I love Apache and I do configuration by hand all the time. The level of control is great, but when you get right down to it I would rather make that part of my life easier and maybe even let a subordinate do it.
There is so much that Apache should do, but they haven't been innovative in nearly a decade. That's why they're losing market share. - Mountaineer1024, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19@mrsteveman1
FAST, CHEAP, GOOD
Pick 2.
My employers (and myself) are all HTML, Perl, Python, PHP developers from wayback.
But our clients don't give a toss about those technologies. They want their product RIGHT NOW and they want it for as low a price as we can provide it.
I'm not going to attempt to argue the merits of visual studio as an IDE over whatever your favourite technology is, but for me it's been the way to go.
So for the last 2 years I've done nothing outside of visual studio, first VS2003 and now VS2005.
You make a judgement regarding my supposed lack of competence and then assert that my ilk apparently "don't deserve the job they have" and then have the gall to say I am one of the "arrogant morons"?
***** YOU. - DonCarcharo, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14I'd say if anything else one reason for the decline in LAMP might just be because the Microsoft solution is easier to setup, easier to administer and (arguably) just as secure. That's not to say that a Linux box can't match an MS box in nearly every way but ease of use seems to go against the grain when it comes to Linux.
As a great example I used a Windows dedicated server for just about 2 years. One thing I really appreciated was being able to RDP into my box and remote control the server. Now this is perfectly doable on Linux using the same exact protocols but if you ask for help setting it up Linux admins will roll their eyes. "Why do you need to do that?" "It's a performance issue", "It's a security issue". Excuses, really because they don't agree with what you want to do. That mindset hurts the platform. It's like the Linux admins take some pride in the complexity of what they do. But eventually the Linux community is going to have to face the facts. Not everyone likes things to be complicated. We don't all love the CLI. Not everyone likes editing text files in order to configure things. For now I still feel LAMP is the better choice but that gaps is closing VERY quickly. - glide256, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18I think what most people forget about Microsoft is that they cater towards developers. They support developer communities because Microsoft, at its heart, is a large software corporation. They know what tools developers want and they tend to produce those kinds of tools.
That being said, ASP.NET is a technical achievement. They created a programming environment for the web that takes care of a lot of things for you. I sometimes don't like the "magic tier" that it creates, but for the most part, it makes web development incredibly easy. My biggest concern about ASP.NET is that it sometimes does too much to abstract away the web.
So to reiterate: Not everything that Microsoft makes sucks. - benjaoming, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18It seems that IIS has increased market share since after the release of Windows Server 2003. Microsoft has fought a dirty battle against Linux for many years... so full of lies (TOS etc), that I cannot applaud them at all.
The statistics do not say anything about Apache servers switching, though. And I think it would be fair to conclude from the last table on http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2007/05/01/may_2007_web_server_survey.html that IIS gains more new-coming servers than Apache. Maybe because Windows admins are so happy about buying new hardware all the time.
In other news Linux has a much better uptime and response time than Windows:
http://blog.mon.itor.us//?p=286 - inkubux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Maybe lighthttpd is gaining some ground :)
- vertinox, on 10/12/2007, -8/+17 * Linux, (referring to the operating system);
* Apache, the Web server;
* MySQL, the database management system (or database server);
* PHP (Sometimes Perl or Python), the programming language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAMP_%28software_bundle%29 - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13Developer hat on, I think any increase* IS most likely due to ASP .Net which has been getting traction for years.
I don't think it's the best product out there, I think the same pages can be served better elsewhere, and I think Microsoft will have to pull something pretty special out of the hat to get IIS to the majority of web servers.
*I've never cited netcraft when they favour what I'm saying because they lack credibility by the way, I feel comfortable pointing that out now. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The international space station?
- EXreaction, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9ASP.NET now sounds interesting (I actually have been looking down on it every time I hear it...).
I myself have been programming in PHP for about a year and a half (in my spare time, mostly making modifications for phpBB2 and phpBB3). And I would like to continue to be a web developer, so I may just need to look into ASP.NET... - mrsteveman1, on 10/12/2007, -11/+19Competent IT managers (or developers) who know what they are doing, don't choose a services platform because of how much they don't have to know to use it.......that makes them arrogant morons who don't deserve the job they have. It is unacceptable for anyone to setup a critical system in a fashion that they don't need to understand it to use it.
Critical services platforms REQUIRE a fundamental understanding of the system from top to bottom, if you can't do that you aren't qualified to manage such systems, at all. - interiot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9The incredible part of this story is that a wordpress blog was able to survive a Digging...
- mcraigw, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8
It would be reasonable to think that, but apparently Netcraft creates their statistics by domain. If you have thousands of (parked) domains mapped to the same IP address, they will all be counted as having the same web server, so the statistics can be greatly manipulated by simply changing the web server in use on the system with that one IP address. - hadi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11parked domain caused it
- kenstone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Uh. Ya it does. It's called String.Split( Char[] ) .
- mrhahn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Not from where I'm sitting...
raptor$ curl -i http://www.microsoft.com
HTTP/1.1 302 Found
Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 16:17:15 GMT
Server: Microsoft-IIS/6.0
X-Powered-By: ASP.NET
X-AspNet-Version: 2.0.50727 - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I agree, donCarcharo. Especially regarding the configuration. It still seems odd to me that we are still using 60's text-based technology to administer today's technology. Why even use the web, if text is so great? Why does XML exist if plain text is so great? The world has moved beyond, but these Linux systems still hang on to these things. Linux is at conflict with itself these days. They want nice flashy point and click desktops like KDE and Gnome, but under the hood they still want confusing "for no apparent reason" file system structures, text files, and cryptic file names. Its simply putting a nice pretty dress on an old hag.
- MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6There haven't been any 'critical' vulnerabilities in IIS6. According to Secunia, there were 3 total, 2 of which were 'moderate', and the other is trivial. Keep in mind that IIS6 is about 4 years old, so that's pretty damned good.
The newest security vulnerability is a year old. The other two are from like 2005. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7".NET doesn't even have a Tokenizer class"
Someone's never used a System.String object.... - Phil246, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16crikey the astroturfers are out in force today eh,
- handler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Lighthttpd is good for customization, it can be run side by side with apache and have one server up the 443 traffic and 80 on the other. Works well.
- spamzor, on 10/12/2007, -56/+62Microsoft .NET web application development is nothing short of the best web development enviroment available... My experience with PHP leaves a lot to be desired however cheap it may be... I love developing in .NET Microsoft really have a winner....
I would suggest this would be the primary reason for a shrinking Apache useage... If those stats are correct - EdgarVerona, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Which ones? www.microsoft.com looks like it's running IIS... unless they're using Apache with Mono or something like that, but I think that's a stretch.
Are portions of the site running on Linux? Someone should make a story about that on Digg if that's the case, because I think that would be hillarious... and I don't doubt it, I just can't find anything they're running that's hosted on Linux at the moment. Perhaps more investigation will be in order later today. - betterth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@mikelieman
We code in .Net at work using nothing better than 1.6Ghz P4's... -
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