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A dystopian future - looking beyond Windows Vista

lxer.com — If Microsoft's latest patent application is anything to go by then the next version of Windows, Vista+1 is really going to give you nightmares.

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  • baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37the patent on moduler OSs & kernels wont fly, GNU/Linux already does that and will be considered prior art..

    sure it sounds scary & extremely draconian, microsoft is just shooting another bullet in their own foot...

    the more microsoft squeezes the more their userbase slips thru their fingers...

    i am not invalidating this article, just that i don't think the outcome will be that bad, it will be good for users that leave microsoft for other platform, the only one it is hurting is microsoft...
    • chrisharcourt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10'Prior art' - exactly what I was thinking. I'm sure they'll try and get around it, probably through some kind of technical interpretation of exactly how the modularity works/is implemented.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -33/+49Oh please, I'm sick of those worst-case scenarios that the usual tinfoil-hat guy imagines in order to trash Microsoft. Let's see what is microsoft really going to do with that patent instead of making up stuff.
    • OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -20/+47[quote]By withholding certification, a service provider may manage illegal or undesired modifications to a provided computer. Digital rights management may be used to enforce terms of use of the add-on module in keeping with licensing arrangements.[/quote]

      What did I tell you people? I've been posting this repeatedly over the past two weeks, only to be dug down by MS shills like RedLion here. As you can see, he still doesn't want you to realize what MS is up to with Vista's "DRM" system--better known as Trusted Computing.

      The "DRM" in Vista is far more than just a system to manage content. MS can block any driver, or even the hardware itself from installing in Vista unless it is certified by MS. This isn't just in Vista+1, it is already functional in Vista. MS chose not to activate that funcationality yet, they won't do it until they've got everyone trapped. (It's a trap)

      If you know anyone in the media, tell them about what is hidden inside Vista. If this can be exposed in the mainstream, MS will have to stop it, because consumers aren't going to buy an OS that picks and chooses what software and hardware a user can run based on the whims of MS, Hollywood and the US government!

      So-called Trusted Computing is a worse threat to freedom than even Net Non-Neutrality. And it is not just MS involved in this; this is something they want to slowly make standard for all devices so that anything connected to the net can be tracked and controlled.

      Make sure hardware vendors know you're not going to put up with this latest round of totalitarian *****. It's going to take great effort to stop this, because there are a few entities, especially the US government and Hollywood, that are dead set on making Trusted Computing into law.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -33/+14"This isn't just in Vista+1, it is already functional in Vista. MS chose not to activate that funcationality yet, they won't do it until they've got everyone trapped. (It's a trap)" so, where are actual proofs of the presence of that hidden functionality?
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -32/+21OBKenobi, I think I saw back in '99 when all the shills were screaming about Palladium.

      How'd that pan out for you ? Over reacting and making up worst case scenarios did nothing back than but don't let that stop you from trying again.

      Basically your whole post is "What if .. and what if .. and what about .. and this is possible" - Your post and this whole article is the poster child for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. I guess Microsoft isn't the only one who does that.
    • grubwort, on 10/12/2007, -8/+20How did Palladium pan out? We're about to find out - it *is* five years late, after all.
    • countmandible, on 11/15/2007, -1/+16@baalzebub
      If you read the extended explanation at this page:
      http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2007012808444146

      Microsoft is trying to patent a module delivery system, not the modular OS itself.
      So the patent is suggestive of things to come from MS, but no one outside of MS knows what they are planning yet.

    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -11/+12"Basically your whole post is 'What if .. and what if .. and what about .. and this is possible' - Your post and this whole article is the poster child for Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. I guess Microsoft isn't the only one who does that."

      This whole 'FUD' article is based on a real patent from Microsoft. So, if we're all jsut raving lunatics you must be the one who can explain what the hell game Microsoft is playing at. Whether thay do it or not, the fact that they have thought it through enough to patent it worries me. This is not innovation or a step forward, it is patenting control. That is, unless of course your excellency can explain it's peaful, valiant purposes.
    • paku, on 10/12/2007, -6/+18I agree. In the long run, there is NOTHING Microsoft Vista can offer that other solutions (WinXP, OSX, Ubuntu, Open Office, XBOX360, Wii, MythTV) cannot.
      Console gaming is killing most PC gaming except for WoW and Counter-Strike. Microsoft Office on WinXP does everything I need and more. Everything else is open source. Why upgrade?

      If Vista doesn't offer something new, which as far as I can tell it doesn't, it will go the way of Microsoft Windows ME.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7noahhoward: what tells you what they're going to do with that patent? Nobody knows, because we can't see in the future. However guys like the one who wrote this story think they can do that, so they make up improbable stories about DRM-ed OSes where you have to pay RAM banks. Really, this is one of the lamest articles I've ever seen: it's pure FUD.
    • rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Beep ... Beep ... Beep

      This is a test of the emergency F.U.D. announcement system. This is only a test.

      Beep ... Beep ... Beep

      This has been a test of the emergency F.U.D. announcement system. Had there actually been any real direct evidence to abnormally fear, be uncertain about, or doubt something, official instructions would have followed.

      We now resume your regularly scheduled program, digg, already in progress....
    • rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Sorry about the double-post, the edit timer ran out...

      Seriously, a vague patent about the implementation of a modular operating system is, in of itself, nothing to worry about. We need to wait and see what Microsoft actually does with this before screaming that the sky is falling.

      Just because someone tries to patent something, doesn't mean that they'll use it or implement it in the way you think. Remember the PS3 scare about games being locked to a single consoles because Sony filed some sort of obscure patent?

    • mcduckov, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Good point Paku, there is very little reason to upgrade to Vista if you already have a secure PC. Office 2007 will run on XP so that isn't a big motivator. I suppose over time that more and more things will be dedicated to Vista but for now there is little reason to upgrade UNLESS you are a novice who would really benefit from the greater level of security. So far I have not read anything that would make me want to upgrade.

      Now, if they came up with something killer like natural voice recognition (that actually works) that would be something I'd be willing to upgrade both my hardware and software for.
    • skyshock21, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Um, Vista +1?

      It's called Vienna. For now at least.
    • PugFish, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@grubwort

      Why do people like you keep claiming Vista is 5 years late? It's been 5 years since XP was released, Vista is only 2 years late.
      I know 2 years is still bad, but it really annoys me when people exaggerate for the sake of Microsoft bashing

      And as for this article, completely blown out of proportion, as Palladium was

      Take off your tin foil hats, please
  • schestowitz, on 10/12/2007, -19/+22This whole thing reminds me of a recent article, which foresees what it calls "Consumer Control Gear".

    Cost analysis of Vista DRM: Part II

    ,----[ Quote ]
    | Microsoft doesn't merely use DRM. To all intents and purposes it
    | is DRM, better known as Digital Rights Management, Digital
    | Restrictions Management or or just plain CRAP for Content
    | Restriction, Annulment, and Protection, as ZDNet's David
    | Berlind called it, eventually deferring to Richard Stallman's
    | Cancellation, Restriction, and Punishment. We call it, simply,
    | CCG, short for Consumer Control Gear.
    `----

    http://p2pnet.net/story/10827
    • Scrib, on 10/12/2007, -21/+62"This is a quote"

      ,----[ Quote ]
      | This
      | Is
      | Retarded
      `----
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5LMAO!
    • km3k, on 10/12/2007, -17/+4I guess not many people on digg know what a block quote is.
    • mglmouser, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16The totally off-topic quote discussion does put in light that the quoting and replying system on Digg lacks in feature, or existence altogether.

      The ASCII-art used might be might be "retarded" to some (notice the quote ;-) but it did highlight quoted text much better than "" does. The faded blueish background, also, always tricks me to think that the first line or so of a reply is actually quoted.

      Digg needs a designer.
  • zombiedepot, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28No Vista for me. The day it's required for anything, I'm switching to Linux completely.
    • texpundit, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7Actually, I'm saving to buy a MacBook Pro right now. There is NO way I'm upgrading to Vista. And once I have my MBP and all the software I need, I'm turning my XP Pro Thinkpad into an Ubuntu machine. Anything I have to have that's Windows only will most likely run under WINE...or I can just dual boot my MBP with XP or run XP under Parallels.

      Goodbye MS. "Nice" knowing ya.
    • akira117, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I agree, I see no reason to upgrade to vista. Not as good gaming performance, DRM, stupid flashy UI.
      When I get a new laptop I'm installing Linux for sure.

      Microsoft has bent over to the movie industry!
    • gfixler, on 10/12/2007, -16/+13Consider doing it early. I was in the same boat in the middle of last year, seeing Vista as a dark storm on the horizon. I decided it would be better to seek, and fortify my shelter before the winds began ripping up the fence posts around me, which is to say I wanted to be comfortable elsewhere, before I was forced to it. It was a bumpy start. I had a lot of Windows habits, and I suggest you need to be open-minded, and a bit proactive about your switch, and even keep Windows around, just in case, at least for the beginning, so you don't freak out. Just try to avoid it as much as possible until you can take off your Linux training wheels. So many of the menial tasks for which you'd download a shareware app, or crack something on Windows are just already there in Linux. Pretty much all of the things about which I bitched in the beginning I found other ways of accomplishing, that have by-and-large ended up easier, more well though-out, rich with more options, and now I much prefer these ways.

      I'm comparing 2 huge directories of digital photos right now to see if I can delete the old one, or if I need to move some things that haven't been migrated. I just typed "diff -r olddir/ newdir/" in a shell, and it's listing folders that exist in only one of the two. When I wanted to know how many words were in an old text document, I typed "wc -w textfile.txt" and it told me (wc = word count). Consider the number of words in this post. Typing those lines is nothing at all. I could also have used -c (bytes), -m (chars), -l (lines), or -L (max line length), too. If I wasn't sure: "wc --help," or to read the whole manual on it: "man wc" - you can use man to find out more about pretty much anything.

      I would have looked around for a utility, or opened the thing up in some bloaty program to find that on Windows, and even UltraEdit won't tell you some of those things. There are countless abilities like that, already built in, with a lot of options for each, if you care to learn about them. These are 2 small, practical examples. When you get into piping them all together, you break into huge amounts of power. Small example: one directory was in /home, and the other /thevault. If I wanted a list of just which ones were different in /home, I could have done:

      diff -r olddir/ newdir/ | grep "Only in /home"

      The lines print out "Only in ..." to show which folders exist only in which of the two. The grep would have only printed out the lines that had that text from the diff command, which would have left out the "Only in /thevault" bits. If I wanted this stored off to a file, say somefile.txt, to use for whatever, I could've added:

      diff -r olddir/ newdir/ | grep "Only in /home" >somefile.txt

      This isn't even the tip of the iceberg. I think a lot of people (previously, me included) are afraid of shells, and the command line, but I've always heard how powerful they could be, and was curious, and am finding out more each day how true it is. People who fear them should realize that shells, and the powers therein were invented by lazy computer nerds who didn't want to be bothered doing a lot of work, if they could help it, and so put in enormous efforts up front to simplify whatever they could. That's why commands are named so briefly. "wc" for "get the word/line/char/etc count in the following file(s)," and "diff" for "find the differences in the following files." Most things are kept logically brief.

      If you put in a little time here and there to learn how it works (I'm doing a bit each day, and it's fun, because it keeps unlocking new abilities for me), and to gain these abilities, then you gain power. Power is good, because it's control, and everyone wants better control over their computers, and life itself. Control over anything means not being a victim. Windows is pulling more control away all the time, and we're strolling right down the primrose path. Personally, I just can't roll over and take it. I can't stand for it. I want things my way, because I'm like that. I don't understand people who aren't. You'd get upset if someone redesigned your living room in a confusing, useless way, or started requiring you to prove it's your living room, or upgrade it if you wanted to watch TV tonight, because it expired, or hid a guy in the corner to constantly make sure you were using your coffee table within the terms and conditions under which you bought it. DRM is fantastically bizarre, and creepy as hell when you apply it to real life. My feeling is - why let someone do that with my computer? Get the hell out of there. This is my box.

      Yes, it's a bit of work, and some may not be able to get past the differences, but my experience is showing it's very worth it, and the pros are very much outweighing the cons. The work is giving me experience, and the experience is giving me power, and the system itself is allowing me to flex that power in ways I couldn't, or that simply can't be done on Windows, without reverse engineering things, and/or violating who knows what.

      I particularly like that all of the software on my Linux box is legally free, and most of it is completely open. The latter means if I feel like learning some programming skills, I can fix whatever I like to be how I want it, right in the source. Far more importantly, it means that the source is viewable by everyone, and that's safer. That means no one can add a rootkit, or spyware, or a virus, or DRM, or anything else bad, because the community will be all over it, removing it instantly. If anything did get through, it would be completely exposed, and a fix would be trivial to implement, and rapidly forthcoming. This is rarely so on Windows, where companies inject badness all the time, and get away with it for weeks, or months.

      There's no shareware, adware, spyware, malware, or any other kind of badware, or crapware, or popups, or nag screens, or registration reminders, or bundled crap on my system now. It's completely mine, and it feels so nice. It's much more secure, much more stable - you almost never need to reboot (you just install things, and use them), and that's super trivial for so many things, thanks to Synaptic (apt), yum, and others. Too, you basically never need to reinstall the whole OS, as you do with Windows every year or so, and you absolutely never need to defrag, as the Linux filesystem keeps itself defragged by default - and in fact, doesn't actually get fragged in the first place, as it stores things more intelligently. Also, all the settings for a program are in a dotted folder in your home directory. For example, every setting that pertains to me is in my home folder, in a folder called .mozilla-firefox. If I need to back up everything, I just copy out that folder, and that's it. This is so for basically all of my installs. There's no registry frustrations, and no secret keys. Dotted folders don't show, unless you show hidden, so I never notice them, but it sure is nice in many programs to be able to tweak something in a config file in one of those folders to fix an annoyance, and the internets are loaded with info on this kind of thing.

      Also, no big corporations are in there with me saying things like "This program died - would you like to send a bunch of binary data to M$ for some reason?," or "Would you like to update this right now in the middle of being busy? [yes] [remind me in 30 minutes] [remind me in x number of days]." Finally, the online community has been extremely helpful to my polite requests for help, which was something I didn't expect, having had improper notions of who constituted the Linux crowd. I've gotten very concise, helpful replies every time - that so far have always fixed my problems in a few hours - and never once had the comic-book guy response I pre-imagined (e.g. "RTFM, moron."). I contrast this with at least 5 problems I had in Windows over the years that forum after forum never managed to fix. They all ultimately gave up on me.

      All of that said, you probably want to keep a Windows partition for the big games, at least until there are enough Linux people to justify ports, or complete games for Linux, although a lot of people get a good number of games working at full power through wine, the Windows emulator for Linux, and I've gotten all of my old DOS favorites working through DOSBox, which exists for Linux, too. It's not Linux that can't handle the high-powered games, and in fact, with good system specs, Linux would be more than capable of doing anything a Windows PC can do in a game, as proven by the wine folks, who get pretty high end games working at full speed in an *emulator*. In fact, Linux may be even better, as it's so very unbloated.

      Anyway, I just wanted to offer a non-raving account of what a potentially typical Linux user is actually thinking. I'm not at all about snootily telling you why your system sucks, or why mine rocks. I wanted to put a human face on a somewhat inhuman, technical debate. I have Firefox, a great email client, some fun games, the ability to watch pretty much any video format, full access to my black and white laser printer, and Epson scanner, and what I consider a very pretty desktop, on dual flat panels, with 3 extra virtual desktops I can switch to with a hotkey for even more room. I work in Maya (highend 3D modeling/animation package) often. My point is I'm not on an old 386 server. I'm not an IT guy. I don't understand thing 1 about networking protocols, or an unfortunately vast number of other technical things. I didn't go for a CS major. I went to art school. I'm on a pretty richly featured system with great specs, and a lot of power, though. I don't see Linux as crippled, or under-featured, or even nerdy. I see it as freeing me up in a lot of tangible ways, and actively getting better, and more supported.

      My very human reasons for switching to Linux (Ubuntu) were this: I'm tired of Windows locking everything down more and more, invading my privacy a bit more all the time, leaving me vulnerable so often, and I'm scared for a future where it's only going to get worse, and sooner than we probably expect.

      Best of luck.
    • kday, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3"I agree, I see no reason to upgrade to vista. Not as good gaming performance, DRM, stupid flashy UI."

      One acronym: DX10.

      Face it, we're screwed.
  • 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -31/+13Tinfoil hat much? It's too bad you all hate choice. Even the choices within Vista are too much for you. Now Microsoft decides it might use a way to offer users the ultimate in choice and here you are again spreading FUD and making people think the world will be destroyed. It's really pathetic.
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18What part of "Vista has the ability to block certain drivers or hardware" translates into "offer users the ultimate in choice" ???

      Hell, I might as well RENT a computer instead of BUYING one.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11You forgot your sarcasm tag?

      Serriously, "offer users the ultimate choice"? What's that use a computer or don't? They talk about havng to install a module to use more memory for gods sake.

      Microsoft was beginning to peak my interest again, but if there's more action on this than just the patent, ***** them, I'm happy where I am.
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -10/+13@noahhoward:

      No sarcasm tag from 7of7. He comments on Digg as if he were Steve Ballmer's personal man whore.
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -18/+5Speaking of 'personal whores' you should read this post by OBKenobi, I believe he and Linus have a * special * relationship.

      http://www.digg.com/tech_news/Vista_Wallpapers_include_several_from_Flickr_members#c5009802

      Or maybe he had a bad childhood ? Oh the irony and hypocrisy is killing me.
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -15/+2And Phocion & schestowitz where raped by Steve Balmer after throwing a chair on them. It's the only explanation for - instead of keeping commenting on Linux/Unix articles - they like to troll every MS related submission too.

      What a pair of *****!
    • Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Explain how my comment is "trolling".

      Actually, more importantly, explain how Microsoft limiting what you can and can't put on YOUR computer that YOU purchased with YOUR own money as "the ultimate in choice".

      Isn't this more of "the ultimate in MICROSOFT'S choice" ?

      Can't wait to see these responses.
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -14/+6"Can't wait to see these responses."

      If by "choice" you are talking about driver protection, two answers: SECURITY and STABILITY.

      If by "choice" you are bitching about DRM, just one answer: don't blame Microsoft. Blame RIAA and all those son-of-some-bitches associations. Should MS not implement DRM on Vista they would be prosecuted as hell.

      Can your "open source brainwashed mind" understand it?
    • cooldudevamsee, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13=> Should MS not implement DRM on Vista they would be prosecuted as hell.

      I don't understand your statement.
      Why Microsoft will get prosecuted for not implementing DRM ?

      => Can your "open source brainwashed mind" understand it?
      I am wondering who got brainwashed ?,

      What is next Microsoft move ?
      Certified Human eyes because RIAA don't want the whole family to watch the movies ?

      Guys like you accept every shxt Microsoft throws at you.

      Good luck. and good bye, You successfully transformed one guy from Windows to Linux.
    • ColinY, on 10/12/2007, -7/+3@cooldudevamsee - wow, you base your choice of OS on comments on Digg?! Heaven help you if you need to use an OS for a reason.
    • cooldudevamsee, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@ColinY

      May be u like microsoft to fxxx ur axx with a stick everytime u play a video, But I don't like it.
    • kday, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4"I don't understand your statement.
      Why Microsoft will get prosecuted for not implementing DRM ?"

      Maybe because the record companies and movie industry wouldn't like it. And maybe the fact that these entities have enough power to win a major lawsuit over something stupid like this. People are looking to sue MS every chance they get, and MS is rightfully trying to protect their ass.

      I hate DRM, but whether I like it or not, DRM is already in place. The only way we can stop DRM is to boycott the movie and record industry... and atleast in the U.S., I don't think this will happen anytime soon. I don't think the average American cares, or let alone even knows what the acronym stands for.
    • straxus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"I don't understand your statement. Why Microsoft will get prosecuted for not implementing DRM ?"

      "Maybe because the record companies and movie industry wouldn't like it."

      Don't be dense. No one is going to sue Microsoft for not implementing DRM. If Microsoft were to *bypass* DRM to playback protected content, certainly. But that's not what you said.
  • 1InMany, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8No one can deny that there's a fair amount of DRM and other ***** embedded in Vista ...
    and if Steve Ballmer is to be believed (there's "plenty more where that came from"), one can safely bet on a lot of ***** in the coming times ...
  • brindon, on 10/12/2007, -10/+19I have a $300 sound card, called the HDA Digital Mystique 7.1 AC3. It's an awseome card.

    Vista is a trap for DRM. As a longtime Windows fan, I actually downgraded from Vista to XP Pro because of all the driver (DRM) problems I had.

    In a nutshell, all 64-bit drivers must be signed/approved by MS. This allows them to control how the hardware works, including "virtual devices".

    Why should you care, you ask. Like ripping DVDs? Making MP3s? What about recording TV shows? This new driver model threatens (and will ultimately stop) your basic ability to do these things. Right now, all you have to do is find a way of installing the drivers (Windows will tell you the install didn't work) and then press "F8" to bypass driver signing (EACH and EVERY time you reboot - as crazy as that is). But in the near future, driver signing will be mandatory, and your old hardware (even if it cost $300 like my sound card) will be worthless, or severely restricted in what it can do.

    Side note: ASIO and unmixed audio streams are not supported under Vista. So even if you can convince the people who made your hardware to make an "approved" driver, it will have little functionality. Vista re-samples the audio and provides it's own personal "final mix" before sending it to the sound card for DRM purposes. All those fancy chipsets on your audio card do nothing, because they can't get access to the raw data they need. Nice...
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -17/+2Can I borrow your time machine ?
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -20/+4DRM in drivers. LOLZ!!!

      What else shall OSS whores and Apple shills invent to bash Vista?
    • brindon, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7naio21: Kernel access to drivers has been removed, which is why ASIO and similar programs no longer work. The express purpose is to stop "rogue drivers" from intercepting protected path content. M$ have tied the DRM concept to the driver framework itself, which is as much genius as it is treachery.
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -8/+7brindon, security experts have said how PatchGuard and similar things are /good/ so I believe I will trust them instead of you. Also, numerous companies (Most notably, anti-virus ones like Sophos IIRC) who relied on free kernel access have said how they are still able to do what they previously were thanks to APIs and documentation from Microsoft.

      Or, you could ignore that and believe Norton who are known for superior products among other amazing things.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11If what he says is true I don't care how many 'security experts' say something, not being able to ustilise your hardware is *****.

      You guys get pissed about Apple's closed hardware system but seem to be fine with MS having the ability to restrict you to 'approved' hardware manufacturers then dictate how that hardware interacts with your system. They may not do it but based off of his experience, if true, they have the means now.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -10/+2@noahhoward: microsoft hasn't restricted the hardware, they are just forcing 64bit kernel drivers to be signed to stop the spreading of rootkits (rootkits can run only in kernel-mode).

      Will this stop drivers development? ABSOLUTELY NOT, like creative is showing in these days by rewriting part of vista's audio stack in its driver in order to access directly their hardware and use again its hardware acceleration like they did on XP. drindon could simply use 32bit Vista if he wants his audio
    • godzilla808, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6naio21: I think you're being facetious, but just so others don't take you seriously here's some additional info:

      To start with, a basic definition of DRM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management
      "Digital Rights Management... refers to any of several technologies used by publishers or copyright owners to control access to and usage of digital data or hardware, and to restrictions associated with a specific instance of a digital work or device."

      Since the drivers are signed, the digital certs can be revoked, right? So if **AA states that a driver/hardware combination allows bypassing copyright protection, and Microsoft revokes the driver, doesn't that fit the definition above?

      For more details, Google "Protected Media Path"

      Note: I use Linux, Mac, and Windows equally -- no whoring or shilling for one in particular. Some of the stuff in Vista just gives me the creeps, though.
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"""DRM in drivers. LOLZ!!!

      What else shall OSS whores and Apple shills invent to bash Vista?"""

      So what you're saying is that all this time you haven't had the slightest idea what the DRM problems with Vista are, but you've been shooting your mouth off anyway?

      Yes, ***OBVIOUSLY*** DRM in drivers. That is the CENTRAL UNDERLYING CONCEPT of the DRM problem, and has been very clearly specified and _stipulated by Microsoft_ as a requirement.

      This is from Microsoft themselves to hardware/driver vendors, and it would be impossible for you to have even read what Microsoft themselves have to say about it without knowing this.

      Do you have any idea what people have been talking about all this time? Do you know what DRM is? Do you know what content protection is? Do you know what TCP is intended to be?

      Do you know what a computer is?

      Seriously, why the hell have you been trying to "correct" people about it if you have no idea WTF what any of this stuff actually means or what the debate is actually about?
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Obviously MSFT beefed up the Astroturf Squad for the big Vista party. You are arguing with con artists.
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2@BlackAdderIII: "Do you know what a computer is?"

      As long as I can see, better than you.

      http://blog.eweek.com/blogs/eweek_labs/archive/2006/01/23/4899.aspx

      Driver signature and DRM are two totally distinct concepts.

      Stop FUDding. And stop trusting Wikipedia so much, many of their articles are written by narrow-minded people like you.

      @godzilla808: facetious my ass! Tired of OSS shills lies, just that.
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"""http://blog.eweek.com/blogs/eweek_labs/archive/2006/01/23/4899.aspx

      Driver signature and DRM are two totally distinct concepts.

      Stop FUDding. And stop trusting Wikipedia so much, many of their articles are written by narrow-minded people like you."""

      Come back and discuss FUD when you understand what you're talking about. Better still, work at a company which develops hardware and tell Microsoft you're a making a series of GPU drivers.

      When you've read the rather onerous documentation Microsoft (not I) can provide you with, on how Microsoft wants DRM and content protection implemented in your hardware and drivers, as I have, then you may tell us all how there's no DRM in Vista drivers.

      In fact, don't even bother doing that - Google is your friend, if you care even slightly to know what you're on about.

      The only FUDmeister around here is you.
  • lowerlogic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I guess Microsoft hasn't heard of lsmod
  • univers3man, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5@RedLion
    There is a paper out by Peter Gutmann on the pitfalls of windows vista.
    http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html
    You should read it before you bash it.
    • RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3even that paper is full of worst-case scenarios and most of them have been debunked by developers of the vista blog (like the myth that super audio CDs will be stopped by Vista's DRM (they are simply unsupported on Vista), the myth that Vista's DRM can interfere with other applications and the myth that vista DRM eats CPU even when you're not playing protected media).
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"""microsoft hasn't restricted the hardware"""

      """even that paper is full of worst-case scenarios and most of them have been debunked by developers of the vista blog (like the myth that super audio CDs will be stopped by Vista's DRM (they are simply unsupported on Vista), the myth that Vista's DRM can interfere with other applications and the myth that vista DRM eats CPU even when you're not playing protected media)."""

      Isn't it funny how the concept of "debunking" has become synonymous with "lying" these days?

      Just so you know, the marketing spiel you're spouting has largely been "debunked" by Microsoft themselves.

      Their content protection spec, and what they've said, clearly state that hardware WILL be limited by Vista's DRM, and that other programs will be interfered with.

      Let's take something we can encapsulate in a small question for you:

      Please explain how echo cancellation in 3rd party apps would be affected where Vista that wasn't doing both of those things.
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Arguing with Astroturfers is pointless.
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3"Arguing with Astroturfers is pointless."

      Indeed. No point in arguing with these OSS *****.
  • dose, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Whatever. It'll be cracked before it's even released.
  • netdroid9, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9Sounds scary, but it's still just a patent. For all we know, Microsoft could be thinking of letting Vista Starter Edition users upgrade their OS to use more RAM or more applications without having to upgrade to the next version of Vista.

    At the moment all we have is speculation, and fairly shaky stuff at that. It could easily be a patent for Windows Embedded or something like that.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3You're absolutely right... but I'm not sure I even like the fact thatthey have thought about it.
  • KimmoA, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Is this article trying to define FUD or something?
    • estvir, on 10/12/2007, -12/+10Out of the many examples provided in the story . .

      Fear: "You should read the actual patent application for more and scarier examples .."

      Uncertainty: "The message is clear. Get out while you can."

      Doubt: "This is Microsoft ultimate wet dream of lock-in through DRM."

      Bingo, we have a winner. Curse Microsoft for the horrible FUD they throw about, no one else does it, no no !
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -5/+6Estevir we're all still waiting for you to put that big mouth and bulging brain toward explaining the beneficial parts of this patent that our wonderful benefactors at Redmond have thought up for us. Take your time if you need to fabrica... think about your response.
  • brindon, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5Man, the M$ astroturfers are out in force already!

    You guys are loose with the digg-down button. So many links to articles to bury, so little time.

    C'mon guys. More astroturfing...but this time, with more SOUL!
  • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8An article published in a site called "Linux News" criticizing Vista. Should I trust it?
    • alx242, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@naio21:

      You have every right to doubt it...however I would never believe MS telling me Vista is the next golden age and meanwhile upgrading the XP install to Vista invalidating the XP license. It's also quite easy to see what kind of locked down environment the MS prefers (xbox and 360 all use propitiatory none standardized controllers, hard drives and other devices).
  • lowerlogic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10We should keep bringing to attention these absurd software patent applications from Microsoft and other companies until it gets enough popularity to reach the mainstream news. If it ever gets that far the whole software patent process might finally be rethought and revised.
  • mcflynnthm, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9OK, I read the legalese over several times, and I don't see where this guy is getting the idea that we have to PAY for each individual OS component, or to upgrade RAM. He's kind of... pulling it out of his ass. The biggest thing I see here is MS trying to set a precedent to not allow drivers and such that are unsigned/unverified to be installed, which, considering the history of Windows getting FUBARed by bad drivers, makes sense. Yes, it makes for more of a closed system, and increases the time between new driver releases (if each has to be verified and signed by MS), but something had to be done to increase the security of these things, which is a blessing to most Windows users (not the power users, who know better than to install things willy-nilly).

    I freely admit I may be misreading the patent's content. But I think the guy writing this is going all tin-foil-hat on us here and too many people are treating it as gospel.
  • Sunsneezer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"It looks like Microsoft wants users to pay separately for every basic OS functionality that they use through some sort of web shop."
    Am I the only one who thinks this is a pointless assumption?
    • MWeather, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3So you think Microsoft wants to add DRM to FREE modules?
  • dirtySi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8To be honest, this patent spunds more like it's intended for the XBOX360, or whatever follows. It sounds very restrictive because the gaming platforms survive on game and hardware sales. No doubt, to ensure that the game publishers (rights holders) choose to continue to invest millions in the development of games and develop for the platform they are trying to patent a system that will allow them to control at the lowest level the hardware and software that can be supported on the kit. By controlling the add-ons, such as memory they can make more money from the hardware and recoup the cost of developing it, supporting it and offering the kit cheap (MS, Sony & Nintendo all lose $$$ on each box, but make up for it with peripheral sales, it's common business).
    Before going crazy on what it means for Vista 2, just accept that the embedded OS of things like games consoles, mobile phones, TVs, MP3 players, etc are being developed to rqquire this kind of restriction - to protect the hardware manufacturer's bottom line, the shareholder's interests, the rights holders for the content available. Most companies get a bit pissed when their stuff gets stolen, so they try to protecdt it, and this includes making demands on the people who carry their stuff. After all, everyone is just trying to get rich - it's what all of these companies were started to do. Ultimately it's the system, and the money that causes all of these problems...
    • kettle, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Rather off topic, but how much longer do you think independent gaming platforms are going to last? At some point all of this interactive media paraphernalia is going to merge. Maybe when reprogrammable-on-the-fly processors become a commercial reality. I suspect it will all go very fluid, very fast.
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Congratulations, dirtySi, for being the first person to bring attention to another possibility without foaming at the mouth. Good point.


      *damn... when I get no sleep I type one word but see another... fun.
  • kettle, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Seriously, who cares? The better linux distros are becoming more user friendly with every update. The only thing I keep windows on my dual boot for is Word, Powerpoint, Excel, and viewing certain flash sites. And the need for the 'productivity' tools exists only because of the inertia they've acquired as the defacto standard for presentations and documents.

    If they continue down this road much longer, intentionally looking out for the interests of other companies at the obvious expense of satisfying their consumer base, and with ever increasing myopia, they will find themselves out in the cold.
  • migla, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Silly persons...

    There's a difference in FUDing community-built FLOSS stuff and FUDing the closed source, DRM:ing, monopolistic ruler of the world (who has through actions in the past given ample reason for us to fear and doubt him).

    Kicking the little guy and sucking up to the man is not cool. Fortunately there are millions of little guys.
  • venuspcs, on 10/12/2007, -10/+4SHUT THE ***** UP YOU BUNCH OF WHINY ASS WHORES.

    Just go to Linux and BE HAPPY, DAMN IT!
    • migla, on 10/12/2007, -5/+3Even if a person has went to Linux and is happy, it doesn't mean they should shut up about the fact that the ruler of the world is enslaving the ignorant masses or that some people are sucking satans ***** and telling everyone else how good it tastes. (figuratively speaking)
    • naio21, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"Ruler of the world", "enslaving the ignorant masses", "sucking satans *****".

      Man, you should play less WoW and get laid more often. What a nerd!
  • RandallBe, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5Vista is so over ***** rated.
    • NeoRicen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Um, no it isn't, barely anyone is rating Vista that great. There's tons of stories on Digg complaining about it and you're accusing it of being 'over rated'? Please.
  • motters, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3As a robotics hobbyist who attaches all kinds of things to computers the idea that the operating system might not support non-standard hardware is worrying. If excessive use of DRM makes the Windows OS no longer fit for purpose then I'll just have to go with Linux.
  • Canthros, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I can guarantee you that Vista+1 won't give me nightmares.

    Why? I'm pretty sure that I won't be bothering with it. I *might* be running Vista by then, but I can't make any promises (it really depends on games). I got my first XP instal last spring, and that's only because of Boot Camp--my desktop is still running Win2K.
  • NeoRicen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3NO WHERE does that say a payment will be a required.

    Sure it sounds bad but a patent is merely a patent until it becomes a product, we've yet to see how much of this will be implemented. All this says is that Microsoft reserves the right to use the contents of the patent, not that the next version of Windows will entirely lock people in this way. Microsofts over use of DRM isn't really malicious it strikes me as being more a desperate attempt to get the trust of the media companies in an attempt to become a major media player. The RIAA and MPAA are the ones responsible for all this DRM nonsense. MS is merely trying to get their favour.

    Besides that may not necassarily be for Windows, it could be for Xbox, Zune or perhaps an unannounced product
    • DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2No *****, it's like the people who through a hissy fit over Palladium despite the fact it would have ended all security issues, and Linux was even the first to support TPM features anyway.
  • chrisofadelaide, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I've been thinking of going to Mac for a while now. If any of this turns out to be true, then I'm definitely getting one (provided Apple doesn't start pursuing this sort of Orwellian crap as well of course). Problem solved.
  • ArchAngel21x, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Good. This story makes me even more grateful I bought a Mac.
    • mikesbaker, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5mac charges you for firmware updates already fanyboy
    • noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Really? I must have missed tht bill.
    • LadyBeGood, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0*mac charges you for firmware updates already fanyboy*

      What a load of *****. When you're finished smoking Bill's pole, piss off!
  • pavetheforest, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2It's beyond me why so many of you defend Vista. Just because Microsoft was innovative and offered quality products in the past does NOT mean that they still do. Lets face up to reality, Vista is an OSX wanna-be with a pretty face but ***** insides. (Not a die hard apple fan, just being realistic.)
  • DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Wow, another load of crap written by some neckbearded Linux advocate. Guess what? Companies patent ***** all the time for all sorts of ***** they no intention of ever developing, it's common practice.

    This could be for Microsoft's pay-as-you-go computing program that lets people in poor countries get a computer through a subsciption model.
  • jlebrech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0This is so they can sue the ligitemate creators of inventions, just because they patented it. Look at the bluej project, they totally stole the interface (which they could because it wasnt patented) but then are trying to patent it for themselves.
    So that they can close down the project that inspired them, if this kind of stuff happens in yet another 50 years,
    Microsoft will have an iron grip and Linux/Freedom users/coders will become the new "Terrorists" of the future.
  • qwonking, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I only read this article for the comments. ..!
  • obrysii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well, Microsoft has to protect content.

    And they have to turn a profit. They will do what they feel is right for them and their shareholders.
    • alx242, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1...and accept that their users bail ship....Hey wait a sec, where did all the profit come from?
    • BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Have you ever known a maintainable business that doesn't care about alienating its customers? I haven't.

      I can think of lots of EX-businesses that tried it, and some of those were very big ones at that.
  • truck87bp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Nerds might appreciate this: To my Family

    As a Geek and your free Windows I.T. support for many years, I'm am sad to say that I will NOT be supporting the new release of Microsoft Windows Vista. Microsoft has relied heavily on myself and other family geeks to keep their product look like Shining Armour which we all know it isn't but its still pretty good. No more free ride for MS Vista.

    MS thinks they own everything, the Internet, the Hardware Manufactures, the MS Geeks and I for one have truly had it with their attitude, their Monopoly and their way of doing strong arm business. MS helped make the Internet into what we have today but time has a way of changing everything.

    I have no intentions of ever buying the Vista software, so if you need support, you will have to pay for the privilege of using Vista through the Microsoft Support Center after the, free support time frame runs out or Google your problem and try to fix it yourself or find some neighbor kid Geek to help you.

    I will support you with all previous flavors of windows, XP, 2000, Me, 98, 95 and Bruno on his windows 3.11, 1989 IBM laptop that's still going strong.
    Soon, I will be supporting some New Improved Linux Operating Systems that are as good as windows and all free of charge, oh yes, you can download them for 32 bit or 64 bit computers or I will burn a CD or DVD for you depending on what ends up being best for your needs or normal computing if you decide to switch to Linux like myself.

    Personally, I'm betting on Linux Debian Ubuntu flavors because I've already tried their 6.10 release and its very easy to use and not very hard to learn at all, it just looks and works a little different.
  • raid517, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1I don't get it... I mean why does MS have to be so *****' evil? Why should computing for them be about evilness? Why not for a change just be the people's champion - and work with us to give us what we want?

    Having said which Apple aren't much better, with their litigious obsession of suing everyone who dares even mention the letter 'i', or who speculates what they might or might not do at some point in the future.

    Never mind MS, they cottoned on to this idea of making the users pay to access already present functionality some time ago, with their insistence that their customers had to pay to access the full 'Draft-N' functionality of the hardware they already bought and paid for (albeit for a nominal fee) and then they blamed it on an 'accounting irregularity.'

    Maybe this is just the start? Maybe they are all just floating this idea out there that one day you won't be able to plugin a keyboard to your computer without paying someone for the privilege?

    If this is what 'modular' means, then both MS and Apple should both go screw themselves.

    Man why is there so little competition in the OS market? Linux is good and all - but we need something that even the ordinary Joe user can get his head around too - and that is also fundamentally non evil.

    Maybe the EU might force MS to open up it's code so that others can compete with it too in some way?
  • Onetrack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3If you want something thats better than XP, check out XP Black 2007 (its not --*official*--, but it is pretty great).
    Alternatively there are many flavors of linux, theres bsd, osx and if you really want to get away from it all you can go to Amiga OS 4.0.

    I had Vista RTM installed for a month, after a month of use it started getting really squirrelly and unstable, the aero interface has absolutely nothing on Beryl. I can't even imagine supporting Vista now, theres no way I'm introducing it at work, we already have a fully working linux infrastructure that has been up and stable since last september when it was installed to replace an aging windows 2000 server setup that had been running without issues for 5 years on a dell 1400sc.

    The sad thing is, 99% of people out there who don't read digg, ' joe user ' will buy a new dell, get vista on it, and then beg for support... I'm not even gonna bother.

    *Also saving up for a macbook pro..
    • raid517, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Sorry, but wtf is XP Black 2007?

      Is it like some custom version of XP?

      You don't have to point me directly to a torrent, but can you at least tell me the name of a torrent site that has it?
    • raid517, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1NM... there aren't any usable torrents and no one is sharing it.

      Thanks anyway.
    • subgeniusd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A German manufacturer of XP baby seats?? Or do I need to go Deep Web? Better yet stick with Linux.
  • TurboSquid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0After reading this I feel sick.
  • Luigi30, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A dystopian future - looking beyond Windows 3.1

    A dystopian future - looking beyond Windows 98

    A dystopian future - looking beyond Windows XP

    It's always the same "OH GOD MICROSOFT" every single release and look at us now? Same ***** we've been running since Windows 98 without any of this patented lockout everyone's been talking about.
  • uberdesigner, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'm sure you'll have to pay extra to install the ram you just bought. Right. Gloom and doom from a Linux dweeb.
  • immrlizard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Vista will be the last release where they have a huge lead on everything else as far as numbers. At the speed that Linux is progressing it will catch up quickly as the numbers of dissatisfied windows users builds. The next release by microsoft will see Linux close on its heels. Unless something really bad happens, I see windows trying to catch up within 10 years. The people working on linux projects have been providing so much more creative and producing solid development that it would seem to be just a matter of time before that happens. Like it or not, open source is more efficient. When you take greed out of the equation you get a better product
  • mahdaeng, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0the only thing i like about the whole vista thing is the avalon/xaml parts of it. that said, a new os isn't really needed to program that way - after all, mozilla's been doing it for years already. i would much prefer to simply use xaml on xp or win2k rather than install yet another questionable ms os.
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