What is Digg?66 Comments
- alphacorvus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6As a student of computer science I believe it is my duty to make the experience for the end-user as simple and concise as possible - I want to learn things so your average Joe doesn't have to. As such, I don't think that apt-get and dpkg are particularly intuitive. While they may be extremely efficient for seasoned *nix users, noobs and casual users feel pretty intimidated by the process. I have installed some programs in the past using autopackage and I found them to be a step in the right direction, and if they eventually become smart enough to use your sources to resolve dependency issues, they would be perfect.
As much as I do appreciate what Linux does, until apps like autopackage become standard for software installation, mainstream users will never switch to Linux.
Some Linux purists may argue with me here but making Linux more user-friendly can only be a step in the right direction. - burke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"Here's a better way, use synaptic."
Oh yeah. Synaptic rocks. Of course, I agree with dainbramage -- eg. if you're installing emacs, apt-get install emacs is a lot easier than launching synaptic, waiting, searching, waiting, installing, waiting, closing. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I was thinking the same thing. I think it every time I see a Linux article. I can kind of agree that typing "apt-get program install" whatever is useful once you know what you're doing, but for the other 90% of us who just want to download a file and double click it, thats not good enough. Yes you have synaptic, but for some odd reason you have to add another site to the list text file just so java-package will show up in it. Can't install Java without it. Thats just one example that Synaptic isn't as easy or great as everyone makes it out to be.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7i prefer apt-get over synaptic so long as you know the name of the program you are trying to get. Works faster that way.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Lets compare Windows to Debian again, shall we? I don't think Berean gets it:
Windows:
1) Go to download.com
2) Find && Download app.
3) Run installer
4) (Use app.)
Debian/Ubuntu/etc.:
1) open synaptic
2) search for app
3) click three times to install.
4) (use app.)
OR, from the command line:
1) $ apt-get install app
2) (use app)
Tell me that isn't just as easy. (You'll note I didn't over-compartmentalize the windows procedure, and even combined steps...) - geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Well, Macs do it by .dmg files (for programs that don't have unresolved external dependencies/libraries that need to be installed) or .pkg files.
As for Linux, as above, they've stated a lot of options, but people still like systems like Apt because you get exactly everything you need to run the application, nothing more or less, and because you go to the same place to both install and remove applications (unlike Windows, where uninstallation is hit-or-miss, or a Mac where uninstallation may not be an option for some applications (whereas others you just drag to the trash and it's gone) ).
Different strokes for different folks. Linux folk tend to go for efficiency and conciseness, Windows folk go for routine and familiarity, Mac folk go for simplicity. - innate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Synaptic’s great but it’s not an option for those of us using Ubuntu-Server.
- BenStockwell, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"If they can post "How To Install (program)" tutorials on forums, how come they can't just put all those commands into a double-clicker for us instead of having to search all the forums to find the right shell commands everytime we want to just INSTALL something?"
If you want to simply install a program, it's "apt-get install nameofpackage". Not difficult. I'll take that over some clunky Windows InstallShield piece of crap anyday. - 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4When are you so sure of the name that you can just type "apt-get install ..?" When I use Linux and need a program I'm not sure enough of the name because of all the bizarrely spelled programs that it's easier just to find it in synaptic.
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"If they can post "How To Install (program)" tutorials on forums, how come they can't just put all those commands into a double-clicker for us instead of having to search all the forums to find the right shell commands everytime we want to just INSTALL something?"
Lindows... err Linspire.. does. But you see, people who know Linux don't like this, because click-and-run applications (like on Windows) either have to insure that all of the dependencies are installed (by making the package contain all of the dependencies onboard or have a way of getting to them), statically link the application (which means that every time any library gets updated, you've gotta update the whole application), or simply drop the application and pray the user has everything he/she needs and it doesn't blow up when they try to run it.
On Windows, the former is done; every application that ships with Windows assumes a baseline standard of libraries to be installed (the ones that ship with Windows), and then installs everything it needs into its own folder (even when sometimes the library it needs is already available in the system folder).
Since Linux users think this is messy, and because dependencies sometimes are tricky to resolve, they invented different packaging systems. I'm sorry that no committee sat down and planned it all out to make it easy, but no committee sat down to plan hardly anything in Linux. But, luckily, systems like RPM and DEB/APT are very, very mature at this point in time, and after you've learned the system, it's hard to go back.
Though I still feel spoiled by the ability to just download a dmg file, mount it and run the application within... - eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A small addition to the above comment:
Autopackage is a quite efficient replacement for installshield.
http://autopackage.org/ - SuperSunny, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It's easy and complicated at the same time, IMO, but you just can't compare it to windows installations.
Though one thing I can say is, I've been using Synaptic, and by far it's been easier than any other windows installation I did. I just mark a program, apply, and bam! No need to worry. - eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I know betean has blocked me, but I doubt it's much use trying to talk to him anyway. To the rest of you guys, however... though it was unintentional, I would just like to sincerely apoligize for getting this guy started. :(
- weirdbro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Because it is harder for double click installers to manage dependencies.
- eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Berean, they're called .run files, and many commercial apps use them. (Doom 3. Quake 4, and nVidia drivers are three examples) However, I still prefer apt-get or .deb when possible, as it keeps everything much more organized.
- barbobot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3aptitude is simply a front end to apt, so really it cant do anything that apt cant.
- eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Go to site, download exe file, doubleclick, next next, scroll through license agreement, next, tell installed not to go sticking icons on my effin desktop, next, wait, remove 5 extra garbage icons new program put in my start menu, move the one actual relevant icon to the folder group where it belongs (multimedia, games, etc), remove program install file
wget (drag link from browser)
sudo alien -d (drag downloaded file)
sudo dpkg -i (drag converted debian)
rm (drag install files)
(KDE and Gnome group programs appropriately and keep my desktp uncluttered, no further action needed)
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your conclusion. - TheLastGnu, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3or you could just use apt-cache search in conjunction with apt-cache show if you don't
- 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4Here's a better way, use synaptic.
- a7bat, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2And I prefer Klik for apps, one click and you're set to go. It still needs to be improved on, but it's a great idea.
Apt-get is great, especially for system files. - n00bish, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I like apt-get and aptitude (not the UI, the command line command) the most. It's quick, easy, and you can get what you're looking for a lot quicker than with synaptic, IMHO. Using apt-cache you can search most fields of a package for something specific, and then you can just apt-get it right after. I'm not a fan of Synaptic, except to go into the "Games" category and select all! :)
- diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1they forgot '-y' which is to assume yes on everything so you are not prompted when upgrading 50 packages or whatever. that can be very annoying.
- Bonzodog, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2There is also of course:
$apt-cache search {name of package}
first if you don't know the precise name of the Package. you run that command first to get the precise name of the package, then pick the actual package out of the results list, then
$apt-get install {name of package}
This is 2 commands to download and install a recognised piece of software. The Repos have about 70,000 pieces of software in them, and it is rare that the item you want isn't in there. - eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Windows programs come with "how to install" tutorials as well you know. In both cases, however, they're only for the completely inexperienced or the completely idiotic.
The problem is that Windows power users expect Linux to work like Windows and when it doesn't, they complain. Linux is not Windows, period. Either you accept it and are prepared to learn something new, or you should stick with Windows. How adept were you at navigating Windows the first time you sat down in front of it? - ermau, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Portage > All.
- BeyondALL, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3 ShaolinTiger: Was the last version of Windows you used Windows 98?
- lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm sorry, the thread you are trying to access has gone down in flames.
Please try again later. - lego, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2This doesn't work well with Linux, where most programs have various dependencies that have to be installed. Downloading them one by one is a pain.
Also, installing through trusted repositories keeps your system safe from bad-ware. - ShaolinTiger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4You forgot the 'reboot' step on the Windows list.
- diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1you posted like 20 times, specifically to piss people off. by your own definition, you are a troll. =)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4By the way, to all of you Linux fanboys who are offended that I complain about Linux not having double-clickers and decided to thumbs-down all my VERY LEGITIMATE comments:
Suck it up and deal. I installed Kubuntu Dapper Drake flight 4 today, and I am in no way anti-Linux. I just think there need to be some improvements. So don't get your fanboy panties in a bunch over someone offering some constructive criticism, ok? - innate, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Of course you also have the man pages, but some of us are switching to Linux (in my case, after years of using FreeBSD and its ports system). A quick reference guide is handy.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1just out of interest, what motivated you to switch?
- steal_apps01, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Wow, wierd that this comes out now. Today is the day I dummped windows for kubuntu, the kde version of ubuntu, now i'm a osx and linux guy woot! Just kidding, anyway apt-get sounds fun I've never used it before I've only done stuff the old way.
- eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3Nobody's panties are bunched, I just find myself in disagreement with your complaints. I don't really think they are valid. I think the primary problem is that we are using different definitions for easy. Windows is easy as in that it's glaringly obvious what you need to do (as far as installers go), Linux is easy in that when you know what to do it's much more efficient.
At least that's my take. - emptymind, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I use dselect, always have for years.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5Why all the thumbs-downs? Legitimate complaints really irk you that much, huh? I can repost.
-plenty of other people digging a how-to on using apt-get testifies to the complexity of installing apps on Linux
-If they can post "How To Install (program)" tutorials on forums, how come they can't just put all those commands into a double-clicker for us instead of having to search all the forums to find the right shell commands everytime we want to just INSTALL something? - burke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1*sigh*
Yeah, I guess you did "***** win". Damn, that quadruple repost was qute a coup d'etat. I understand you may be expecting a medal? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Hey, morons, putting the shell commands into a an icon does NOT detract from the efficiency of the install. At all. Because you're doing the same commands, only instead of making someone look all over the internet for them, you're putting them into an icon they can just double-click.
I love Linux. I have Linux fanboys and elitists. Stop making excuses. And stop censoring posts.
And it's not trolling, you ***** moron. Trolling is posting for the sole purpose of pissing people off. You're an idiot, but I don't have a medal for you, so I'll just report you.
I ***** win. You ***** lose. - eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2As I said above, not complex, just tedious. And I guess maybe I am a fanboy. I used Windows for years, but now that I've migrated fully to Linux I honestly just can stand working in a Windows environment.
- mdshort, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Actually aptitude does handle dependencies better, and package removal is also much less of a pain when using this method.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4So, I can download a file, then use a program to convert it to a useable file, THEN use a shell command to get the file installed?
Double-clickers are easier. - MikeSavior, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I personally dugg the article for the comments in it. For advanced users, there are all sorts of nifty little tricks and suggestions that taught me alot, and I'm an intermediate user of linux and an advanced computer user in general.
Also I'd like to remind you that for the sake of legalities the "extras" repos with Java and mp3 support are turned off. Not that the Ubuntu guys are out to be difficult. They're just trying to stay clean with the suits. And IMO it's not that big of a deal, just turning on a repo. In a server install it isn't as easy to add these repos (pico editor anyone?) for some maybe, but in synaptic all you have to do is click a few things. And considering the fact that linux still has a ways to go on the desktop, there's nothing to worry about with that. Wasn't there always some windows (or OS of your choice) quirk you had to deal with because that's just how it was? Well, for Ubuntu, adding repos is one of them. It's not that bad, guys. - xswag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I just installed Ubuntu on a spare box that I had in the house 3 weeks ago. apt-get has been very handy. I'm not a linux guru, just like playing around with it. This takes some of the hassle out of installing new packages.
Something else that I like is Automatrix
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=138405&highlight=automatrix
Automatix is available only for Ubuntu/Kubuntu/Xubuntu Breezy x86 (NO support for ppc and AMD64 packages).
Peace!!! - krewemaynard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"When are you so sure of the name that you can just type "apt-get install ..?""
how about every time i install something on my server? http://packages.ubuntu.com/
does searching hurt that bad? - 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5Are you crazy? That'd make things easy so Linux users wouldn't feel so elite anymore.
- nixdoctor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Do not "control click" (I assume you're using firefox). Do a simple click on the link and it'll open.
- andrewtj, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Making *nix more friendly is a worthy goal, however at some point the user is going to have to learn, acknowledge and live with the difference in environment and philosophy between their previous OS and new OS.
This is something that I don't believe is addressed by countless helper utilities such aptitude and what not - these utilities arguable make it easy to install preselected software - however the user still needs to understand that this software has vetted (tested) before being made available to them. The average Windows Power User doesn't understand why the latest Alpha release of AppX isn't made available to them within a few clicks.
We need to help them cross this rift and have an understanding of where they sit in the community and what they'll need to do to progress within it. How do we do this? No idea. - burke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Berean, let's think rationally for a moment here.
I'll admit, I'm not 100% sure what you're talking about in your triple-posted paragraph, but my interpretation is that you're talking about how Windows or windows-style installers are better than the raw shell commands because instead of making people hunt all over the internet for instructions, the program does it all automatically. Fine. I completely agree. However, you apparently hold firm to the belief that installers are much simpler than synaptic or similar programs.
Lets look at the steps involved in the windows style
1) Open browser, go to site, find and download installer
2) double-click installer, click next 5 times.
or if you use synaptic:
1) Launch synaptic, search for and mark program
2) click 'apply changes', then 'ok'
Can you not see that these are nearly identical? I would argue that Synaptic is actually far easier, but that could be because I am now more used to it than the old way.
Surely you agree? Or at least, would you please point out *exactly* what it is that makes Synaptic more difficult?
Burke - burke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1"Hey, morons, putting the shell commands into a an icon does NOT detract from the efficiency of the install. At all. Because you're doing the same commands, only instead of making someone look all over the internet for them, you're putting them into an icon they can just double-click."
You do realize that you just described why Synaptic is better than a windows installer, right? Just checking.
and to everyone else, I apologize for feeding the troll. -
Show 51 - 66 of 66 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is